Talk:Marquis de Sade/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Overall Tone

The overall tone of this page seems to be less than professional. It's hard to say whether it's been written by a non-native English speaker, or by a young peron who lacks the ability to express her/himself well, but given the topic at hand, I think an effort should be made to "clean up" any poor grammar or unclear sentence structure. Glad to do so myself, but not really sure of the etiquette here.

Moving the page

I would like to move this page to "Marquis de Sade", which seems to be the more common way to refer to him. Any objections? AxelBoldt 00:24 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

None, go ahead and move the old perv. -- Anon.

Horrid, horrid comments. Disregarding this unprovoked vomit, the article would be bettered by a more impartial and cognizant appreciation of Sade's biography (re: his alleged abuse) and also some basic consideration of his texts.

a bit partial

I'm a bit amazed that so much space is given to a few rumors about his life, and so little said about his work. I don't think that De Sade is more famous for some crime -if he ever committed any, as there is no solid allegation of it- than for his books...
If some people are interested in his work, it is not the purpose of a serious encyclopedia to prevent them of reading it. You may warn them of the explicit sexual descriptions, not invent the content of books you obviously haven't read... Let people make their own judgement!
Ju.

Sounds worthy of an NPOV flag to me -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Not for me, so I have removed it. The introductory paragraph clearly and IMHO correctly states what de Sade is famous for: his books. Then it goes on to describe his life and work, with roughly 40% of the article devoted to his work. If you find the description of his life or work inaccurate, please go ahead and improve them. In particular, I can't find any invented content of his books in the article, but if you do, just correct it and explain it here. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

And probably inaccurate

The factual accuracy of the Marquis de Sade article is disputed. I seriously doubt the story about the Marquis de Sade related to the storming of the Bastille. A different variant of it (which I also doubt) is in the article Bastille. I strongly believe he had been transferred to Charenton well before the storming of the Bastille, but I don't have a source to quote, just a reasonable knowledge of his life. It would be good if someone would sort this out. -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica writes:

A few days before the French Revolutionaries stormed the Bastille on July 14, 1789, de Sade had shouted through a window, “They are massacring the prisoners; you must come and free them.” He was transferred to the insane asylum at Charenton, where he remained until April 2, 1790.

It is my understanding that at the day of the storming of the Bastille, de Sade was not there anymore; he had already been transferred. If you know of a contradicting source, then please add it to the article; I don't think that your personal doubts are sufficient for a "factual accuracy is disputed" disclaimer. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The "a few days before" seems much likelier than the implication in the text that this was an immediately precipitating incident. And the article in Bastille clearly implies that he was one of the prisoners on July 14, which Britannica explicitly contradicts. I'm happy to clear this up by going more clearly with Britannica's version of events. Axel, is this OK with you, too? -- Jmabel 23:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Certainly. There are various versions of the events floating around on the internet, but from reading a biography of de Sade (forgot the title) and from the Encyclopedia Britannica, I think the following is the most likely course of events: de Sade shouts a few days before the storming of the Bastille, then he is moved to Charenton, then the Bastille is stormed. This link confirms this history: http://www.monsieurlesix.be/history/briefaccount6.html and it gives July 2nd as the date, which seems plausible. I'll edit our article accordingly and I'll do the same over at Bastille. AxelBoldt 16:56, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I wish I could've helped, but I was sleeping on the other side of the city when all of this is supposed to have happened. - Sigg3.net 09:37, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

From Sade, à biography by Jean-Paul Brighelli & from Vie du marquis de sade by Gilbert Lely (in french) :

• Sade arrive form the Fort de Vincennes at the Bastille in september 1788 by his demand (the Bastille was more "confortable").
• The 2 Juillet 1789 using a tinplate pipe he shout against the governor and said than prisoners are killed into the Bastille (that was fasle).
• In reason of this fact he was transfered during the 4 to the asilum of Charenton
• The 14 the Bastille is taken and all is 600 books library is dispersed as well as lot of his manuscripts including the 120 journey one.
• He was libarated from Charenton because to be a Lettre de cachets prisoner the 2 april 1790.

fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark 15:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

---

From the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911

http://73.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SA/SADE_DONATIEN_ALPHONSE_FRANCOIS_COUNT.htm

SADE, DONATIEN ALPHONSE FRANC.OIS, COUNT [usually called the MARQUIS DE SADE] (1740-1814), French licentious writer, was born in Paris on the 2nd of June 1740. He entered the light-horse at fourteen and saw considerable military service before returning to Paris in 1766. Here his vicious practices became notorious, and in 1772 he was condemned to death at Aix for an unnatural offence, and for poisoning. He fled to Italy, but in 1777 he was arrested in Paris, removed to Aix for trial, and there found guilty. In 1778 he escaped from prison, but was soon re-arrested and finally committed to the Bastille. Here he began to write plays and obscene novels. In 1789 h was removed to the Charenton Lunatic Asylum, but was discharged in 1790, only to be recommitted as incurable in 1803. He died there on the 2nd of December 1814. Among his works, all of the type indicated, were Justine (1791), Juliette (1792), Philosophic dans le boudoir (1793) and Les Crimes de I'amour (1800). The word Sadism, meaning a form of sexual perversion, is derived from his name.

Maybe we should add this to the article? Sigg3.net

Well, the "licentious" and "obscene" and "perversion" is very 1911 Britain, isn't it, only relevant to quote to indicate a 1911 British critical POV (imaginably relevant, if described as such). Other than that, if there are any facts in the EB version that are missing from the article, yes they would be relevant to add. -- Jmabel 00:07, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Name

An anon recently changed the name at the beginning of the article, changing "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" to "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Comte De Sade". (Well, actually, they also messed up the capitalization, but I fixed that.) I don't know enough about French noble titles to know if this is an improvement or is plain wrong, but I find it surprising. Why would a marquis be "Comte de Sade"? I would guess that he should either be named as "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" or "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Marquis De Sade".

Although he is commonly referred to as the Marquis de Sade, he in fact assumed the title of Comte De Sade upon his father's death. Marquis in this instance being an honorific afforded to the eldest sons of counts. The correct orthographic practice in French, moreover, with reference to his name, as it is hyphenated, is to write only Donatien with a capital letter: the initial characters of subsequent names to be written in lower case: thus his full, official title is "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade".

I've never seen this capitalization practice anywhere (on this or any other similar French name) and none of the first 40 Google hits fail to use capitals (they vary on the hyphens). Can someone with a knowledge of French and a willingness to use a user-name rather than an IP address please weigh in? I'm really hesitant to take the word of someone who could so easily be trolling. -- Jmabel 00:16, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

The Encyclopædia Britannica's article on the Marquis de Sade has `Marquis de Sade

born June 2, 1740, Paris, France died Dec. 2, 1814, Charenton, near Paris byname of "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade". If I find out how to use a user-name I'll gladly use it instead of my IP.

You can make a user name by clicking on "log in" in the upper right corner of your screen and filling in the blanks. And then you can sign using 4 tildes ~~~~ that will be converted to your signature and timestamp when the page is saved.

I do not think your suggestion is the common French usage; our colleagues at the French Wikipedia have their article at Donatien Alphonse François de Sade. The "de" should of course be uncapitalized: the hyphens are usually dropped in English. - Nunh-huh 00:30, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. I can find no particular consensus on the issue; the Encyclopædia Britannica's article was written by a French scholar, but I suppose it's perfectly possible that it's a simple typographical error; or perhaps a vagary of eighteenth century French. If it is indeed English practice to write his forenames separately, I suggest we do that, without the hyphens, thus obviating any discussion of the correctness of capitalizing each individual part. The form of his name, however, I believe is right, viz., Donatien Alphonse François, Comte de Sade; although `Sade' is often placed first, as is needful in an alphabetized reference.

Don't forget you can "sign" with the tildes for that added touch of class<g>. I think you are right that the style with no caps is an old one and out of fashion: I regularly encounter people whose prenoms are hyphenated and capitalized. As for last-name-first, or titles-first, it's pretty well established that the article names at Wikipedia are in natural order: redirectes could be made for any variants that might be common, such as de Sade, Donatien Alphonse François, de Sade, Donatien-Alphonse-François, de Sade, Donatien-alphonse-françois etc. -- Nunh-huh 00:51, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• i belive that he was born as Donatien Alphonse-Francois de Sade and that his father was Comte de Sade , perhaps he took the name up at his fathers death but none the less he was born under Donatien Alphonse-Francois de Sade . this link might clear it up (im not certain but i hope this helps) http://www.nndb.com/people/912/000031819/*

D. A. F. de Sade took the title "Marquis" upon his father's death because his grandfather had called himself "Marquis" and he'd gotten it into his head that the title should alternate between "Comte" and "Marquis" perhaps to avoid confusion as to who was whom.BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"bisexual"?

Recently categorized under "Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual people". Besides the fact that this category as such makes me a little nervous, I'm not at all sure it is appropriate. I realize de Sade did sadistic (duh!) things to males, but I'm unaware of him having sex with them. As far as I know, in sexuality as such he was pretty hetero. The article doesn't contain anything particularly to the contrary. Is there some basis for the claim? -- Jmabel 20:24, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

There's no evidence whatsoever that he tortured men.BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

He was listed at List of famous gay, lesbian, or bisexual people, so I made the bot add him to the category. I have no opinion on his sexual orientation, but if you remove the category, also remove him from the list. Guanaco 20:40, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

After being deleted, this has recently been re-added. My previous remark stands, but I'm not expert on (or particularly interested in) whether the Marquis fucked men. Frankly, I object to this Wikipedia category insofar as it is applied to anyone who was not famously Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual, but I'm not going to waste my time fighting over it. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:47, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Marquis de Sade was definitely bisexual by any definition. He liked to be sodomized by his valet. Check Neil Schaeffer's biography.BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

It is also known Sade enjoyed to insert various objects up his rectum. It was actually one of his main occupations while in prison. Nicolasgasne 19:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea if the foregoing is true (seems perfectly likely) but it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. - Jmabel | Talk 01:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sade himself has been cited as saying that he had imagined whatever was imaginable, but had accomplished far less in reality. In many instances de Sade is seen as a philosopher and a moralist, taking and impartial view to the "worst" of human desires. Just because he doesn't immediately denounce the scenes he depicts doesn't mean he endorces them. Unfortunately, beyond his literary works, much of what is said of him is based on rumour and speculation. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with tagging him as "bi-curious" if such labels must be applied, since he was intrigued by all things sexual, but there is no definitive claim as to his true sexuality. 193.1.172.104 14:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Suzie

It seems Sade, while in jail, tried to seduce a young man who was either a fellow offender or part of the security guard of the prison. And I know one of his male employees, when asked by Sade, used to sodomize him when he took part in Sade's orgies and he was equally persecuted by the French justice because of 'sexual deviancy.' Some of Sade's works also show an aesthetical or maybe sexual appreciation of the male body, sometimes over the female body: in Juliette, it is said that the female body is just an "extraordinarily degraded form" of the male one. And Dolmancé, who sometimes is considered a personification of Sade himself, is portrayed as preferencially homosexual. I know that none of these facts prove either the homosexuality or the bisexuality of Sade, but, given that Sade was so prone to various kinds of sexual experimentation, it is difficult to define which was his main orientation.201.50.174.53 22:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

He was bi. The LGBT writers from France category was already present; I just added the bisexual writers category. Werdnawerdna (talk) 02:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Comte

The following two edits were made recently, anonymously and without citation. I'm not fully up on the use of French titles, so someone else should either confirm of revert.

• "Donatien Alphonse François, Comte de Sade, better known as..." (strikethrough indicates deletion)
• "Sade was born in the Condé palace in Paris fathered by Comte de Sade (d. Jan-1767)." (bold indicates insertion)

Jmabel | Talk 18:58, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

See [1], the anon has commented on this on the talk page. --Conti|✉ 19:15, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

for the name Comte de Sade: de is ALWAYS lower case. You would translate it in English by "of". When someone received a title by the king and a land, he usually received the title and the land name. For example: John Smith gets the title of Count for Washington. His new name would be "Count John Smith of Washington" or "John Smith, Count of Washington"... most people dropped their last name, so they would call themselves : "Count John of Washington". But the "de" is always lower case. Also, when you refer to them by their last name, you never mention the "de" (of), unless their last name starts with a vowel... so in our example, you would say something like: "John Smith of Washington is coming for dinner tonight with his family" OR "The "Washington" are coming over tonight". You wouldn't say "The "de Washington" are coming over tonight".

About Comte or Marquis: I have checked the little book "Noblesse 2001" from Nicolas Guerre which lists all current true nobles in France. That family is not named in it... which means: either it is a extinct family, either they couldn't prove their noblety. I have also checked the "Bottin Mondain 2002" (sorry, don't have the latest ones): There are 3 families listed in it. ALL three have the title "Count"/Comte... but I can't really tell if they are related in any way to our "Comte/Marquis de Sade". Often, because in France, ONLY the oldest son will wear the "title" after the death of his father (except for the title of "Comte"... the oldest son is "Vicomte" once he his born, and will switch to "Comte" after the death of his father.). (The only exception to the oldest son getting the title is for the title of "Duc/Duchesse", but ONLY Royal family children are allowed to wear that title, and all children will wear it...

But for Comte/Marquis de Sade: What happens often in families, is that the brothers are a bit "jealous" of the title wore by the oldest son... so they take a "honorary title" for themselves. And often, they'll choose something different. That may have been the case here. Not sure... Someone would need to research that. But the rule is : A dog doesn't make a cat... A Comte doesn't make a Marquis as his son... so if you have various titles in the same family, most likely these are "honorary" titles to make the other kids feel better...

Hope this helps a bit. (I'm not an expert, but my family (on my mother's side) is from higher noblety in France, so I've got a little knowledge about it).

The French nobility and the Peerage of France were different institutions. A peer would usually be a noble, but many nobles were not peers, and a title such as "comte" in the peerage was rarer and more esteemed than the same title in the nobility. I have read (and I'm sorry, I do not recall where) that de Sade was by inheritance a marquess in the nobility; and that some time after inheriting his title, he was appointed to the rank of count in the peerage. This may account for some of the "Comte or Marquis" confusion. Maproom (talk) 13:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Charenton

A recent uncommented anon change modified [[Charenton-le-Pont|Charenton]] to Charenton-Saint-Maurice (now Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne). I have no idea which is accurate, but certainly whichever it is it should be linked. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:13, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

The anon edit seems correct. From [2], [3], [4] and [5] the following story emerges: Charenton-le-Pont and Charenton-Saint-Maurice are neighboring parishes; the latter, which changed its name to "Saint Maurice" in 1842, has the asylum. The asylum is nowadays often simply called "Charenton". I'll edit the Charenton and Charenton-le-Pont entries accordingly. AxelBoldt 21:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Maison royale de Charenton was at Charenton-Saint-Maurice (Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne) not at Charenton-le-Pont. The Asylum is now called Hopital Esquirol (see Charenton (asylum)). I correct accordignly Charenton-le-Pont to Charenton-Saint-Maurice. fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark02:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Other books?

I notice theres a list of movies about marquis de sade, but not a list of his books, I recently picked up a copy of "the mystifieed magistrate and other tales" by marquess de sade. However, many of these stories are given no refference. Perhaps they should be added for possible future articles at least. Jaynus _Izanagi 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

• If you have material to add to the article, feel free. I would say this article still needs a lot of additions. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:06, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

pun?

"…Sade's most seminal contribution to art…" -- Jmabel | Talk 00:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Kekeke 75.24.213.105 06:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Verbosity and moralism

The quote below was tacked on at the end of the "Literary works" section. The original author should, by all means, try to revise this. I suggest incorporating it into the preceding passage, rather than by presenting a veiled personal opinion after the fact.

What, for instance, is "heathenistic promulgations"? Why may we "assume much of what Sade wrote to be lived vicariously..."? How, furthermore, is any of this clarified by the empty closing pronouncement "nothing can defeat nature but god is worthy of overthrowing"? This is a lot of cobbled-together nonsense. Let's have less of the non sequitur, and more argument and scholarly citation. Sade offers lots of opportunity for depth, but here I see only sophomoric moralism and big words.

Strunk and White, or Plain Words, by Sir Ernest Gowers, are good correctives for flowery language.

Such is the reoccurence of heathenistic promulgations, we may assume much of what Sade wrote to be lived vicariously, through Juliette, The Bishop of ________ , and others, however he argues that nothing can defeat nature but god is worthy of overthrowing.

Vorpal Suds 1 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)

Lost in translation?

Just curious... when Wikipedia has such complete knowledge and links thereof for most authors, why has it only got a few incomplete links to works of the Marquis de Sade... and not in English? Anyone know where and/or how we could get links to de Sade in English? --WAS 02:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC).

I'm not sure of all the answers to this, but one reason is that most of the old translations suck, and the good modern translations are still under copyright restrictions. --Apyule 04:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah... well, I guess that's too bad. But aren't there bound to be, when you think about it (considering the, uh, popular nature of de Sade's works), a few (hundred) sites which don't really care about copyright violations? I mean, just showing a link isn't actually incriminating for whoever put it there, now is it?... of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate (as usual)... not like anyone might actually do anything like what I'm am very thinly hinting at here... WAS 05:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem at all with posting links. I'll have a look after work sometime. --Apyule 06:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The only "official" English translation of nearly all of Sade's works (and his entire corpus has never been translated into English according to prominent Sadean scholar, John Phillips), is held by New York's Grove/Atlantic, Incorporated, the parent publisher of Grove Press, which was the first (and subsequently only) publisher to print Sade's so-called "libertine novels" (Juliette, Justine, The 120 Days of Sodom, and Philosophy in the Bedroom) in English, beginning in the 1960s. However, other English publishers, such as Penguin, have recently undertaken selective English translations, notably of Philosophy in the Bedroom (by them titled Philosophy in the Boudoir), among others. The Grove editions remain the academically-accepted standard for all English Sadean studies, and since the 1960s and apparently for the time being, are the only if not definitive English-language versions. Oxford is one of the sole printers of Sade's Crimes of Love, which it recently re-released in a handsome new edition. The rights to the Oxford and Grove collections are held jointly by the Sade family and their respective translators (i.e., Austryn Wainhouse and Richard Seavers) of each publishing house.

The Sade family managed to convince French courts to reopen the dormant (and basically non-existant, since copyright was not so common place if at all legally accepted yet in 18th Century France, though England had copyright at the time) Sade copyrights in the 1960s through 1980s, and though peculiar for a dead author of so many centuries ago to remain copyrighted, his works, regardless of original French or English, are indeed protected, which, once reinstated, actually means all 'outdated' translations were once again subject to copyright, meaning anything by Sade online is technically still active.

He has also entered the "official" French canon of literature, the Pleiade, which, a joint government cultural venture, renews and watches over the existing rights of its selected authors. Only about 25% of Sade's actual writings have survived into the present; one of his sons vehemently destroyed every manuscript he could find upon his father's death at Charenton, while Comte Xavier de Sade, the recent patriarch of the family, discovered additional manuscripts at a family property (an old trunk in a stone barn) in Provence in 1948 when he was then 26. It was he who successfully copyrighted Sade's works and all his and the family names' usages by the 1980s, as well as his own children and grandchildren that today monitor and approve all uses, such as translations. There are only a few articles in English talking about the modern Sade family, most articles are from the French media; I can link some online examples if needed. I am also in communication with the Sade family. Interestingly, as an example of the Sadean copyright debate, the notable play, "Marat/Sade", can never be performed with that title in France because of an injunction brought forward by the Sade family when it debuted in the 1960s; they never approved of the use of their ancestor's name in that manner, and dislike how he had been exploited to publicize the play, a play which only very indirectly involves Sade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.173.162 (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

is this true or just a historical legend?

I've heard more than once that the Marquis mother was a nun.

any truth to it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.49 (talk • contribs) 23 Sept 2005.

His mother moved into a convent while her husband was still alive, but she did not take holy orders. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Belladonna

Recent addition: "including poisoning partygoers with belladonna, which he had heard was an aphrodisiac". Has someone got a citation for this? For one thing, I doubt he'd just "heard" it was an aphrodisiac, the belief was widespread at the time. In small enough doses, it's supposed to be an "interesting" drug, but, of course, the problem is that it's one of the things where a recreational dose is awfully close to a lethal dose. But if he actually killed someone trying that, it should be easy to document and cite. --- Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Belladona is most definitely not an "interesting" drug unless you think it's interesting to be unable to sweat or salivate. I took it for irritable bowel syndrome, and it has very unpleasant side effects. I've read two biographies of Sade, and nowhere have I found that he poisoned anybody with belladonna. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The "poisoning" was beacuse the use of Spanish fly powder who supose tu be an aphrodisiac but who can cause death too. fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark 04:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No evidence has ever been brought that Sade ever killed anyone. The only persons that were "poisoned" threw up after eating those candies.Nicolasgasne 19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Obese leftist non sequitur

"By now extremely obese, he was even elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left."

I don't understand why these two parts belong in one sentence (makes it sound he was elected *because* he was obese)...one idea per sentence... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Houarno (talk • contribs) 9 Dec 2005.

feel free to edit accordingly -- Jmabel | Talk 19:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Nietzsche

I removed this:

Most obvious is his towering influence over Nietzsche. Everywhere we look in Sade's body of work, we find fascinating pre-echoes of supposedly Nietzschean philosophies; Sade's (relatively) famous A Dialogue Between A Priest And A Dying Man, for instance.

Do we have any reference for the claim that Nietzsche was influenced by (or even read) Sade? AxelBoldt 05:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do. In Jean Paulhan's essay, he cites the intellectuals who have declared Justine to be "favorite reading--at least during a certain period of their lives--with Lamartine, Baudelaire, and Swinburne, with Barbey d'Aurevilly and Lautreamont, with Nietzsche, Dostoevski, and Kafka (or, on a slightly different plane, with Ewerz, Sacher-Masoch, and Mirbeau) 70.248.223.52 06:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Skull

There is no "Guttering Museum of Natural History in New York. The Skull story is a hoax. I'm going to remove it.

There has been some philology about the study of his skull. I have heard that it had some grump on it, which maybe relates to his character. I thikn we should add more about it Pictureuploader 07:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

This sounds a bit like Phrenology to me. Hard to think how any "grump" on the bone could related to character.

that was mentioned on the History Channel special on him, it supposedly took place but not in New York. I can check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.78.120.202 (talk) 03:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The "skull story" depending upon which you are referring to, is rather "true." Sade's skull was removed after his burial, and is preserved indeed, in a museum, though not in New York (it has never been exhibited outside France). In fact, the skull exists today only as a plaster cast, which is missing the jaw. The item is part of the collection of the Musée de l'Homme in Paris, though not on permanent display. The rest of Sade's remains are still buried at Charenton. Confusingly, a horror film was made once based upon a book fictionalizing the skull, giving it a sort of evil power. The part about phrenology, however, is a true story, too. The plaster cast of the skull held in Paris was made solely for a phrenological exam in the nineteenth century. The cast can only be seen as a photograph, as it is in storage and understandably fragile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.173.162 (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Missing time

I would like to see another section with a list of his books he wrote and the time he wrote them. As for now, I have :

Dialogue entre un Prêtre et un Moribond (known in english as Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man), (1782)
Les infortunes de la vertu (1787)
Les 120 journées de Sodome (known in english as The 120 Days of Sodom), (1789)
Justine (1791)
Juliette (1792)
La Philolosophie dans le Boudoir (known in english as Philosophy in the Bedroom), (1795)

The dates might not be precise but almost. I might also be missing some books

There is also "Historiettes, Contes et Fabliaux" which means something like "Small stories". Here is the list below, I guess he wrote them in prison when he was first arrested, around 1777 to 1789, but that's just my guess.

Attrapez-moi toujours de même
Augustine de villeblanche ou Le stratagème de l'amour
Aventure incompréhensible et attestée par toute une province
Dorci ou La bizarrerie du sort
Il y a place pour deux
L'heureuse feinte
L'instituteur philosophe
L'époux complaisant
L'époux corrigé
L'évêque embourbé
La Marquise de Telême ou Les effets du libertinage
La châtelaine de Longeville ou La femme vengée
La fleur de chataingnier
La prude ou La rencontre imprévue
La saillie gasconne
Le M... puni
Le cocu de lui-même ou Le raccomedement imprévu
Le mari prêtre
Le président mystifié
Le revenant
Le serpent
Le talion
Les filous
Les harangueurs provençaux
Soit fait ainsi qu'il est requis
Émilie de Tourville ou La cruauté fraternelle

Anyone could help ?

--Zurd 23:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

All the books you mention, and several others, are already listed in the article, under "Literary Works", complete with the date they were written. AxelBoldt 06:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"Protruding crump"

What is a "protruding crump" and do we have a reference for the fact that one was found on his skull? AxelBoldt 16:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"Voyage d'Italie"

Why isn't there any mention of his travelogue through Italy? This was Sade's first book, written c.1773. He commissioned drawings for his book. It's a first hand account of what he saw while travelling. This book is really long (like his novels) although it has never been published in english. Adding it here would be nice because it shows that Sade was actually doing something during his self-exile in Italy. But I am not a Sade scholar and cannot give accurate historical context about this book.

Thanks, I mentioned it. AxelBoldt 03:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Grounds for marquis, comte

Copied from NC titles talkpage:

...."Also concerning another point that exists for monarchs already 4. If a person is overwhelmingly best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...".

To that I would like to formulate the same thing for nobility, for example Marquis de Sade ... as exceptions. Gryffindor 16:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, exceptional names are allowed to be used only if that is really really overwhelmingly best known. We would not want countings and recountings of google hits, if difference is only one or some orders of magnitude. Such exception is George Sand.... Shilkanni 23:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the particularity of Sade, in case he really was Marquis, he does not deserve an exception, as the format "Jabba-Jabba, Marquess of Sade" would be quite good. However, I received information that in fact he was not a marquis in real life, but comte de Sade. In that pretension (or suchlike) case, as he is overwhelmingly known as marquis de Sade, it must be regarded as his pen name and be treated as George Sand is treated. These facts should be checked, preferably by opening a discussion in the article's talk page. It's not a proper place to make individualized decision regarding his article here. The principle stands and can be discussed here. Shilkanni 10:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but about the Marquis de Sade case, apparently his grandfather was the marquis, and in the French version they talk about something how as the eldest son he took the marquis title? didn't quite understand that part, but it does seem to have been part of his family, not just something that he made up. ... Gryffindor 14:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe in the French system, the older son takes a title one grade lower than his father. Or maybe even every member of the house except for the head does that... There is a newsgroup called alt.talk.royalty that has lots of info on it. ... Charles 15:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I read French, also. However, the facts seem to be that Sade was son of Count of Sade and succeeded him as count. His maternal grandfather indeed was marquess, but Sade did not presumably succeed him (it would be somewhat unusual, as the title would be inherited by males of his mother's lineage and usually not by his mother's descendants) - thus the grandfather is not a good explanation as source of marquessate. Besides, then he would have not been marquis de Sade, it would have been marquis de Carman. I did not find anything proper to show that Sade's own (agnatic) family had held any marquessate - and if so, why was his father called not a marquess, but a comte instead - you know, highest title is used in French noblesse, not usually secondary. Besides, certain info about Sade's own publications tell that at least one of HIS was titled "...tales of Comte de Sade", not marquis de Sade. Marquis was a higher title of nobility in France too. It would never have taken place that a count's eldest son would have held a marquis-title as a courtesy - the situation would have been reverse. Re family members generally using a lower title as courtesy, it is true at least with French dukedoms - Duc d'Harcourt's younger sons were "comte d'Harcourt"s as courtesy. But a comte's (substantive comte's, not courtesy comte's) heir would have been vicomte, not marquis. The facts suggest that he actually was comte, but for reason or another he used sometimes marquis - and that stuck for literary fame. Shilkanni 18:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• This family alternated use of the titles marquis and comte, yet appears to have been entitled to neither legally. This was not a faux pas that Wiki needs to set right in the interests of history (as it would be had Sade belonged to the British aristocracy where titles, both legal and by courtesy, are governed by strict rules, so that a breach constitutes usurpation, fraud and scandal). French titres de courtoisie were and are much more flexible, and the Sades' usage falls well within the norm.

• Gilbert Lêly's Vie du Marquis de Sade (English translation by Alec Brown, published as "The Marquis de Sade: A Biography" 1961) details the many properties, positions, names, income and titles of the family in precise detail from its twelfth century origin to the current Count Xavier de Sade. But when it comes to their noble title, he writes only "It was Gaspard François de Sade, the eldest son of Côme, who was the first of this family to bear the title of Marquis. He was occasionally referred to as the Marquis de Sade, but more often documents refer to him as the Marquis de Mazan. This is the title we find in his marriage contract, in his will and in the Bull of Pope Innocent XII of April 3rd, 1693 giving him the office for life of Colonel of the light cavalry of the Comtat." Conspicuously absent is any reference to Sade's lands being erected into a marquisate for him or his ancestors, or an act of registration of the title of marquis (or count) by the parlement of Provence. Both of these certifications would have been necessary for any legitimate title of nobility to descend legally. The fact that the family indifferently used marquis and count simply reflects the social reality that the Sades were noblesse chevaleresque, that is, of such ancient nobility that they had no known non-noble ancestors. Given the loftiness of their ancestry, the assumption of a noble title, absent a grant from the King, was de rigueur.

• Two clarifications are warranted however, because several editors on this page still tend to treat Sade's title as if it followed British rules. First, they are puzzled by the alternation between titles, because no English peer or his successors, having attained the rank of "marquess", would have suffered themselves to be styled "earl". But in France, the hierarchy of titles below the rank of duke was notional; it neither carried the privilege of peerage that made most ducal titleholders members of the Parlement of Paris, nor did it determine precedence at court, which was based upon seniority of the family's nobility rather than upon any (sub-ducal) title the family might possess. Thus it was largely a matter of aesthetic preference and chutzpah whether an aristocrat used the title of marquis, comte, vicomte or baron -- he was equally entitled to adopt any, and had a legal right to none. Second, Donatien assumed the title of marquis during his father's lifetime because, in accordance with the above, he never "succeeded" to that title at all, but simply arrogated it. This, too, was customary given his family's high rank.Lethiere 00:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• • This is very useful. Is there an article where we explain this? - Jmabel | Talk 00:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Censorship

As a note, the work 120 Days of Sodom is censored (as a book) in New Zealand (per the New Zealand Office of Film and Literature Classification and apparently is banned in many other countries. Perhaps this should be mentioned somewhere on the page? (I'm not sure where to find a list of countries that've banned the text). --Liamf 06:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

licentiousness

"His is a philosophy of extreme freedom (or at least licentiousness), unrestrained by ethics, religion or law, with the pursuit of personal pleasure being the highest principle." I added the note on licentiousness as, arguably, Sade's philosophy does not actually grant freedom but only licence. --Whitespace 21:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Mazan and the Marquis

There has been little or no mention of the Marquis and his long family history based in Mazan, where it is known that his family had a castle and more recently (around the 1700's ) a chateau. There seems to be some confusion about the family residence in La Coste and that of the Chateau de Mazan. Did the Marquis introduce his theatre events in Mazan or Lacoste? Since his family clearly originated in Mazan it is surprising that so little is written of his sojourn there with his uncle the Abbe and his time spent at the Chateau during his exile. Can someone fill in the missing history? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mazanais (talk • contribs) 8 August 2006.

Contemporary bans

In "Scandals and Imprisonment", it is stated that Justine and Les Prospérités du Vice are still banned in France. I just bought a copy of the latter yesterday, editted by the French 10-18 (http://www.10-18.fr/10_18/index.htm) from a used book store in Chinon, the Loire valley. The books are most assuredly not banned.

It has been possible to purchase published works by Sade in the present day since the 1960s. Any apparent ban would have to predate this. There was an attempt to censor a French publisher from publishing the works, on grounds, predictably, of obscenity, but the case was not successful, and led in the 1960s to the first 'modern' printing of Sade, still ongoing. In fact, the French government has officially endorsed the works of Sade as high literature, in fact, the highest, by assigning Sade to the national literary canon: the Pleiade. I think this honour should be evidence enough that France has not had a moral problem with its 'notorious' son for quite some time.

Scandals and imprisonment section

This section is a bit unclear. First off, are Lacoste and La Coste two different places? If they are, I'd feel a bit better if the article clarified it. Another issue is the slightly confusing chronology. For example, at one point it says "His mother-in-law obtained a lettre de cachet...and he was committed to the Bastille. During this imprisonment...", but then it seems to imply that he went on to other places without explaining how or why (or if) he escaped. 24.126.199.129 05:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Lacoste/ La Coste: presumably the same, does anyone know if one form is more correct?

On the rest, I have no clue. - Jmabel | Talk 16:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the correct one: Lacoste, Vaucluse. The other things in the scandals section have been clarified in the meantime. AxelBoldt 19:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It is Lacoste, in Vaucluse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.192.39.100 (talk) 16:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Authorship

Isn't there a question of authorship for a number of his works? I don't see much mention of that in this article. 24.126.199.129 07:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. I'm not aware of that, but references to the controversy would certainly be appreciated. AxelBoldt 19:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Convictions

Why was "he was never convicted of any crime" turned into "he was never technically convicted of any crime"? How is one non-technically convicted? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Three days, no response, reverting. - Jmabel | Talk 02:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

He was officially under the jurisdiction of the king, due to the letter-de-cachet, and as such, was not answerable to crimes in the regular court system. Thus, the convictions he received in the regular court system were, technically, invalid. Although, I don't care for the word "technically". Ideas, anyone?

Isn't this page a little . . .

. . . more hostile than it should be? I'm not saying it shouldn't be hostile to certain acts, but it seems to be hostile even to homosexuality. I think homosexuality is one of the things wikipedia is supposed to be neutral on . . .

Oh, by the way, if you know how to get rid of that annoying box thing on my comment, please do so. Thank you.Done —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.95.23.122 (talk • contribs) 04:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

This page is extremely hostile, and terribly factually incorrect.

• Several "facts" are entirely incorrect, others are dubious at best
• The descriptions of Sade's life and scandals are not only factually incorrect but not at all neutral
• The citations are rare, few and far between
• The writing itself is poor, and there are many misspellings, naming errors, and irrelevant statements.

I'd rewrite the entire article if I had the time -- perhaps I'll find the time at some point. This article definitely needs work.

In the spirit of sanity and humanity, my suggestion would be to have this sick man and the entire body of his work obliterated from history.

99.249.100.219 04:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

A book-burning, a book-burning! Quick, mother, gather the folios in our arms! Oh, the joy, the thrills, the unbounded, sadistic pleasure! DionysosProteus 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sadistic pleasure? Was that intentional? Cryo921 (talk) 21:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"Sex without pain..." quote

Can anyone reference the "Sex without pain is like food without taste." quote? Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough but I cannot find an original writing of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.120.188.41 (talk • contribs) 4 January 2007.

I think it's in Justine; one of the monks who has imprisoned her in the monastery has a long speech justifying his sexual practices to her. I'm not completely sure though.

Etymology of the term Sadism

I've deleted the citation needed tag for the etymology of the term sadism. It's in the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (1973) which adds that word 'sadism' was first used in 1888 and means 'a form of sexual perversion marked by a love of cruelty'. Natalie West 11:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

External links

None of the external links work apart from the internet movie base, but I am reluctant to delete them until someone else has checked. Natalie West 11:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC) Realised that anon vandal changed thm all, so I've restored them. Natalie West 12:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is this still flagged?

So many of these questions have been resolved, and were from years ago....in recent events, little has been questioned at all. Just how much does a page have to be clarified and professionalized to remove the tags all over it?? Lesomers 03:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)lesomers September 25, 2007

List of Works

I think this section needs expanding greatly. It also needs to be categorized more than just between fiction and non-fiction. I've prepared a more comprehensive list of Sade's own work (as opposed to works about him). I based it on the bibliography found in the Grove Press edition of 120 Days of Sodom and Other Writings as well as Simone de Beauvoir's essay. So it is not complete and considering I don't understand French I may have made some mistakes in listing the works down in their proper categories. Feel free to edit them and rearrange them accordingly. Preferably chronologically. If anyone knows the dates the works were published, it would be a big help.

-Red marquis 13:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

His Works:

Novels/Novellas/Tales:

• Justine, Les Infortunes de la Vertu (ou les Malheurs de la Vertu, or Good Conduct Well-Chastised)
• Juliette, or Vice Amply Rewarded (l'Histoire de Juliette, sa soeur [ou les Prosperites du vice])
• The 120 Days of Sodom, or the School of Freedoms (Les 120 Journees de Sodome, ou l'Ecole de libertinage)
• Incest (Hesperus Classics)
• The Crimes of Love (Les Crimes de l'Amour, Nouvelles heroiques et tragiques
  • Vol. I
    • Juliette et Raunai, ou la Conspiration d'Amboise, nouvelle historique
    • La Double Epreuve
  • Vol. II
    • Miss Henriette Stralson, ou les Effets du desespoir, nouvelle anglaise
    • Faxelange, ou les Torts de l'ambition
    • Florville and Courval, or The Works of Fate (Florville et Courval, ou le Fatalisme)
  • Vol. III
    • Rodrigue, ou la Tour enchantee, conte allegorique
    • Laurence and Antonio, An Italian Tale (Laurence et Antonio, nouvelle italienne)
    • Ernestine, A Swedish Tale (Ernestine, nouvelle suedoise)
  • Vol. IV
    • Dorgeville, ou le Criminel par Vertu
    • La Comtesse de Sancerre, ou la Rivale de sa fille, anecdote de la Cour de Bourgogne
    • Eugenie de Franval
• Voyage d'Italie
• Le Portefeuille d'un homme de lettres (Destroyed / Lost)
• OEuvres diverses (1764 - 1869)
  • Le Philosophe soi-disant
  • Voyage de Hollande
• La Marquise de Gange (1813)
• Contes et Fabliaux du XVIII siecle, par troubadour provencal
  • Historiettes
    • Le Serpent
    • La Saillie gasconne
    • L'Heureuse Feinte
    • Le M... puni
    • L'Eveque embourbe
    • Le Revenant
    • Les Harangueurs provencaux
    • Attrapez-moi toujours de meme
    • L'Epoux complaisant
    • Aventure incomprehensible
    • La Fleur de chataignier
  • Contes et Fabliaux
    • L'Instituteur philosophe
    • La Prude, ou la Rencontre imprevue
    • Emilie de Tourville, ou la Cruaute fraternelle
    • Augustine de Villeblanche, ou le Stratageme de l'amour
    • Soit fait ainsi qu'il est requis
    • Le President mystifie
    • La Marquise de Theleme, ou les Effets du libertinage (Destroyed / Lost)
    • Le Talion
    • Le Cocu de lui-meme, ou les Raccommodement imprevu
    • Il y a place pour deux
    • L'Epoux corrige
    • Le Mari pretre, conte provencal
    • La Chatelaine de Longueville, ou la Femme vengee
    • Le Filous
  • Appendice
    • Les Dangers de la bienfaisance
• Aline et Valcour, ou le Roman philosophique (1795)
• Adelaide de Brunswick, princesse de Saxe
• Les Journees de Florbelle, ou la Nature devoilee, suivies des Memoires de l'abbe de Modose et des Adventures d'Emilie de Volnange servant de preuves aux assertions (Destroyed / Lost)
  • Les Converations du chateau de Charmelle (First Draft of Les Journees Florbelle, Destroyed / Lost)
• Les Delassements du libertin, ou la Neuvaine de Cythere (Destroyed / Lost)
• La Fine Mouche (Destroyed / Lost)
• L'Heureux Echange (Destroyed / Lost)
• Les Inconvenients de la pitie (Destroyed / Lost)
• Les Reliques (Destroyed / Lost)
• Le Cure de Prato (Destroyed / Lost)
• Histoire secrete d'Isabelle de Baviere, reine de France (1953)

Historiettes:

• La Liste du Suisse (Destroyed / Lost)
• La Messe trop chere (Destroyed / Lost)
• L'Honnete Ivrogne (Destroyed / Lost)
• N'y allez jamais sans lumiere (Destroyed / Lost)
• La justice venitienne (Destroyed / Lost)
• Adelaide de Miramas, ou le Fanatisme protestan (Destroyed / Lost)

Essays:

• Reflections on the Novel (Idee sur les romans, introductory text to Les Crimes de l'Amour)
• The Author of Les Crimes de l'Amour to Villeterque, Hack Writer (1803) (L'Auteur de "Les Crimes de l'Amour" a Villeterque, folliculaire)

Plays:

• Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man (Dialogue entre un pretre et un moribond)
• Philosophy in the Bedroom (La Philosophie dans le boudoir)
• Oxtiern, The Misfortunes of Libertinage (1800) (Le Comte Oxtiern ou les Effets du Libertinage)
• Les Jumelles ou le /choix difficile
• Le Prevaricateur ou le Magistrat du temps passe
• Jeanne Laisne, ou le Siege de Beauvais
• L'Ecole des jaloux ou la Folle Epreuve
• Le Misanthrope par amour ou Sophie et Desfrancs
• Le Capricieux, ou l'Homme inegal
• Les Antiquaires
• Henriette et Saint-Clair, ou la Force du Sang (Destroyed / Lost)
• Franchise et Trahison
• Fanny, ou les Effets du desespoir
• La Tour mysterieuse
• L'Union des arts ou les Ruses de l'amour
  • Divertissement (missing)
  • La Fille malheureuse (Destroyed / Lost)
• Les Fetes de l'amitie
• L'Egarement de l'infortune (Destroyed / Lost)
• Tancrede (Destroyed / Lost)

Political Pamphlets:

• Adresse d'un citoyen de Paris, au roi des Francais (1791)
• Section des Piques. Observations presentees a l'Assemblee administrativedes hopitaux (28 octobre 1792)
• Section des Piques. Idee sur le mode de la sanction des Loix; par un citoyen de cette Section (2 novembre 1792)
• Petition des Sections de Paris a la Convention nationale (1793)
• Section des Piques. Extraits des Registres des deliberations de l'Assemblee generale et permanente de la Section des Piques (1793)
• La Section des Piques a ses Freres et Amis de la Societe de la Liberte et de l'Egalite, a Saintes, departement de la Charente-Inferieure (1793)
• Section des Piques. Discours prononce par la Section des Piques, aux manes de Marat et de Le Pelletier, par Sade, citoyen de cette section et membre de la Societe populaire (1793)
• Petition de la Section des Piques, aux representans de peuple francais (1793)
• Les Caprices, ou un peu de tout (Destroyed / Lost)

Letter Correspondence/Personal Notes Posthumously Published into Books:

• Letters From Prison
• Correspondance inedite du Marquis de Sade, de ses proches et de ses familiers, publiee avec une introduction, des annales et des notes par Paul Bourdin (1929)
• L'Aigle, Mademoiselle..., Lettres publiees pour la premiere fois sur les manuscrits autographes inedits avec une Preface et un Commentaire par Gilbert Lely (1949)
• Le Carillon de Vincennes. Lettres inedites publiees avec des notes par Gilbert Lely (1953)
• Cahiers personnels (1803-1804). Publies pour la premiere fois sur les manuscrits autographes inedits avec une preface et des notes par Gilbert Lely (1953)
• Monsieur le 6. Lettres inedites (1778 - 1784) publiees et annotees par Georges Daumas. Preface de Gilbert Lely (1954)
• Cent onze Notes pour La Nouvelle Justine. Collection "La Terrain vague," no. IV (1956)

Uncertain/Misattributions:

• Theory of Libertinage
• Zoloe

-Red marquis 12:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments moved from main article

In Defence of Existensialism. The M. de Sade in his "Dialoque between a Prist and a Dying Man" touches om aspects of The Philosophy of Existentialism but by no means was the Marquis an Extentialist. That philosphy had historic origins and is a part of the modern world circa WWI. The absurdity of life became even more absurd with wars of worldwide scope and colonial wars and neo-colonial and now wars for no simple reasons except to appease the military-industrial establishment and protect economic interests (oil) and strategic land (Israel). Existentialism remains a relevant and provocative approach to life whereas the Marquis offerred more examples of the abuse of power. —200.86.154.106 (talk) 13:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Philosopher Infobox

Do you think we ought to change the infobox to a philosopher`s infobox considering the influence de Sade had on many philosopher's and the content of his works? Exiledone (talk) 19:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-fiction?

I know very little about the Marquis de Sade indeed. I was, however, a little puzzled to find that under the main heading of non-fiction works were listed his novels and novellas, including Justine, Juliette, and the 120 Days of Sodom. Are these non-fiction works, or has somebody created the list with "Non-fiction" erroneously placed as a major heading, as if these works form a sub-section within the larger category of non-fiction?--Oxonian2006 (talk) 19:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

places of prisonement

it didnt sound for me to list all the places where he was imprisoned in the lead. instead i would expect to see names of some very famous novels by him. --ArazZeynili (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I very much agree. While it is appropriate to say that he spent large portions of his life imprisoned, the complete list should surely be saved for later on in the article. My problem is that I would like to keep the detailed accounting of his imprisoned time. I'm not sure how to work it in.Toyblocks (talk) 03:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1

Archive 2

Elected?

Excuse me, but this sentence:"In 1790, he was elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left. He was a member of the Piques section, notorious for its radical views." is completely false. Sade was never a deputy at the Convention, at a certain point he was chosen from his club as a delegate to read a petition in front of the Convention, and I suppose a misunderstanding of the word "delegate" is at the origin of the ridiculous assumption that he was a member of parliament. By the way, the Club des Piques was no radical circle. During Terror, Sade had quite moderate, "humanistic" views, he was against death penalty etc.

Potential sources

The following have been removed from the bloated external links section. Feel free to integrate the reliable sources among them into the article as inline citations:

• Brief biography from "books and writers"
• Timeline of his life
• Biography from Channel 4
• Brief biography from sade-ecrivain.com
• Description of one of de Sade's escapes
• Annotated bibliography by Marina Pianu
• Arms of de Sade family
• Bataille on Sade by Geoffrey Roche
• Critique of Maurice Lever's biography
• Biography by Neil Schaeffer, some letters written by Sade while in prison and a timeline
• Biographyby Douglas B. Lynott True TV.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mligorio (talk • contribs) 01:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Works online

French

• French Wikisource public domain works by Sade
• Works by or about Sade, in several languages Archived page from 2007-06-10

English

• Marquis de Sade elibrary PDFs of 120 Days of Sodom, Philosophy in the Bedroom, a short story, and biographical materials
• The 120 Days of Sodom - e-book
• Justine
• Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man (PDF)
• Florville and Courval

Skomorokh 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "sadism"

The pronunciation of "sadism" is so variable that I consider it overly judgmental to recommend one over the other. Unfree (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Politics

I think that a section on his political views would be in order. Apparently, he was an early predecessor to socialists. Some have even called him an anarchist communist. Zazaban (talk) 07:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Religion

You seem to have placed De Sade in the categories French Atheists and Atheism Activists, but I don't see any source in the article stating his religion (or, technically, lack thereof). Simply being critical or religion does not mean he was an atheist. he could easily have been a Deist or Maltheist judging only fromt he article; so if you have sources for his religious positions, please cite them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.89.254.150 (talk) 21:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Comte Xavier & Publication

How verifyable is this narrative? I'm very sceptical, especially of the statement "Marquis de Sade's works went unpublished and unread in France until the 1960s", regarding the esteem his work was in by avant-garde writers from the likes of Baudillare and Lautremont into the 20th century, eg. Bataille, Genet; they must have had access to his work. Ross.Brighton (talk) 08:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Influence

Interesting that Sade's fascination for, and influence on philosophers and writers is, rightly, detailed in the article, but that on some others who were a bit more literal in their admiration, is not. Perhaps that's because the article is a little squeamish in describing what exactly Sade actually depicts in, for instance, 120 Days of Sodom.Straw Cat (talk) 16:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Imprisonment for his writings and death

I see the year of his death, but nothing about it. A few sourced quotes:

"Marquis de Sade died at the age of 74 on December 2, 1814, at 10 o'clock in the evening, easily and quietly as a result of a long illness which had nevertheless not impaired his vigor." Ivan Bloch, "Marquis de Sade: His Life and Works"

"died at 10 pm on December 2, 1814, of a 'pulmonary obstruction' following a 'prostrating and gangrenous fever.'" Foreword, The Complete Marquis de Sade, Volume 1 By Marquis de Sade, Paul J. Gillette, John S. Yankowski

"Grossly overweight, the Marquis de Sodomy died on December 2, 1814. De Sade's final request was to be buried in an unmarked grave so that 'all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men.'" The concise guide to sounding smart at parties by David Matalon & Chris Woolsey

"His will, made at Charenton on 30 January 1806, expressly forbade a Christian burial and ended with these words: 'Once the grave has been filled, it shall be sown over with acorns so that all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men, with the exception of those few who kindly continued to love me until the last moments, and of whom I take a pleasant memory to the grave.' Introduction, Plays of the Marquis de Sade, translated by John Charles Franceschina and Ben Ohmart Bustter (talk) 17:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of "sadism"

From the article: "The namesake of the psychological and subcultural term sadism, his name is used variously to evoke sexual violence, licentiousness and freedom of speech." Perhaps, but how about the libidinous infliction of pain, cruelty, and torture? As it stands, the statement is inadequate. Unfree (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, I've never heard the term sadism to refer to freedom of speech. Also, the claim made a few sentences later ("Sade's sexually explicit works were a medium for the articulation of the corrupt and hypocritical values of the elite in his society, which caused him to become imprisoned.") may be true, but should need a citation, correct? Mysticete (talk) 05:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Moors muders

The Moors murders are nothing to do with De Sade, please stop posting that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.219.141 (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The links are referenced to reliable sources, and a quick google will uncover several others, so please would the anonymous vandalizing of this article be stopped? Straw Cat (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

"please would the anonymous vandalizing of this article be stopped?"-no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.208.177 (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC) The "Moors murders" are not relevant to the Marquis De Sade's life or works; his influence in culture goes far beyond two idiotic murderers who shouldn't be even worth mentioning. Why does Ian Brady get a mention on this page, yet the fact that "Sadism" is derived from de Sade's name doesn't? What kind of moron wrote this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.210.40 (talk) 06:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Figures of speech

‎"De Sade was forced to disavow his son's desertion in order to save his neck."

Are figures of speech allowed in when they are literally true then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.88.138 (talk) 13:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Explanation due

The following sentence could benefit from a bit of explanation:

"Later that year his name was entered - whether by error or willful malice - on the list of émigrés of the Bouches-du-Rhône department."

That is, What did his entry on the list imply about him, and to whom, and what consequences might have been expected? Unfree (talk) 18:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing, myself, Unfree. Yours, Wordreader (talk) 07:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

During the French Revolution, émigrés were nobles who fled the country. They were considered as traitors, and it implied that their properties could be seized and sold by the governement. Blaue Max (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Count or marquis?

In the Title and heirs section, there is a discussion of the inheritance of the titles "marquis" and "count" in his family, and a tag. I wonder (I have no evidence) if the family held the title of marquis in the nobility of France, and the title of count in the peerage of France? These were separate institutions, the peerage was the more prestigious, and there were certainly men who held French titles of nobility but were not peers of France. Maproom (talk) 16:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the dubious tag is warranted- but a reference is needed.

The desire is to try and label the past with our modern understanding, which is of titles being merely honorific status symbols bestowed by a monarch, but this is far far from true. The article does briefly touch on the different types of nobility, and the different system of precedence and rank, that existed in France: there are some more modern formal peerages (in the style known to Britain) but the majority of titles in France were a less formal kind: usually ancient or traditional titles of nobility which were held from ancient times or that were tied to land; but also frequently titles were simply self-assumed by noble families. These titles were never "bestowed" from a King. This was especially common in France where, in the Medieval period, the Kings were generally weak and lacked both power and land: the powerful nobility held most power and wealth; with a system of vassalage holding France loosely together. Titles were assumed from the land they controlled: a count controlling a county and so forth; but self-assumed titles were common even then for powerful and wealthy families.

As for the alternation between the titles of Marquess and Count: it was a very common way to distinguish between father and son, and is seen in a few different French families. It does seem to be a male only thing though, as most references to their wives use only "Comtesse". In the British system son's are often given one of the father's lesser titles: The Duke of Devonshire's son is known as the Marquess of Hartington, for example. The French did not use courtesy titles- but the alternation of title names is their equivalent way of differentiating.

I have only ever seen the Sade family's titles refereed to as the more traditional type. I have read things where historians have alleged the Sade family may be among those who assumed titles more recently than others (Some families trace back to before the Carolingian age, so what those historians class as early and late is wide open). There doesn't appear to be any easily accessible reliable online lists of peerages either to cross check, which is a shame.

But yes; the information that is there seems to be sound - it just needs reliably referencing. The majority of those used for the article are offline sources; so I shall look into finding a suitable online one tomorrow.

--Rushton2010 (talk) 02:03, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. The mistake here and in the section above misunderstands French noble titles because they are trying to apply the British system of titles to France. Yes, France had a hereditary peerage, but unlike the UK's, the vast majority of legally noble persons -- even those with legal titles -- did not belong to it. In fact, in France the peerage consisted almost entirely of dukes, especially in the post-Medieval era: I can think of no marquis and only one count (the Comte d'Eu) who belonged to France's peerage -- and not even all dukes belonged to the peerage. Although the King could and did grant titles of nobility, the vast majority of French nobles were untitled, and most of those who held titles never received any letters patent for them from the King, they simply assumed them. That's where the confusion lies; in Britain, all noble titles are also peerages (whether hereditary or not) and must have either a writ of summons to the House of Lords or letters patent from the King to bear and pass on a noble title. In France, land, not individuals, were legally titled: that is, any nobleman (but not a commoner) who owned a legal marquisate, countship, viscounty or barony could assume the use of the title and this was considered the traditional way to acquire a title, and was perfectly legal. The process was cheapened as the ancien regime approaches the Revolution, because many persons who were rich and technically noble (because they or a recent ancestor held some post at court or in a regional Parlement which entitled them to be deemed noble) began to purchase lordships and then to assume the title which went along with the lordship. Commoners could even legally buy lands that were lordships, but they were forbidden to assume that lordship's title unless they first became legally noble. This last rule was so frequently broken that it was almost a joke. Technically, the Sades were Seigneurs of Sade and Mazan, and as members of the old nobility, assumed the use of the title marquis and count, which the royal court would not have hesitated to use in referring to them. So it is not possible to document a date when de Sade legally became the Marquis de Sade, he simply used the title (apparently first ascribed to him by his own father) and it became a tradition in his family that was fully recognized by the French royal court. Thus the description of his title in the article is correct -- it just feels strange to anyone who thinks of nobility in terms of the British peerage, which most English-speakers do. By the way, although nobility was abolished in France during the Revolution and never, technically, restored, hereditary titles were restored and remain legal today in republican France. FactStraight (talk) 16:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I do remember reading about the French recognition of old titles- I seem to remember it lead to a rather comical attempt at legal action between the descendants of the various french royal families. Someone was attempting to take another to court to stop them from using the title "King of France" because they felt it was theirs. With the various families who had previously held the throne -there's quite a few pretenders and claimants.

Anyway back to Sade... It would be inefficient to go into at length the full descriptions of the French system of nobility within the article, but there obviously needs to be at least some short explanation. Do you have a reference for the "Seigneurs of Sade and Mazan" so that can be included? Might I also suggest that a permanent, more through explanation be left on the talkpage (something that's not then archived) to stop repeating questions from keeping popping up. --Rushton2010 (talk) 18:44, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(The lawsuit to which you refer was launched in 1987 by the then comte de Clermont, eldest son of the Orléanist pretender, along with cousins of the Parmesan and of the Neapolitan branches of the House of Bourbon, against the French legitimist pretender, Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. It wasn't over the title "King of France", but over use of the royal title of pretence "duc d'Anjou" by the legitimist claimant. The court ruled that since neither Clermont nor any of his cousins had a right to the duc d'Anjou title themselves, they lacked standing to sue Louis Alphonse de Borbón for assuming it -- also noting, however, that the title had last been granted to a Bourbon prince from whom Louis Alphonse did not descend, before being abolished in 1790 during the Revolution and never re-granted. The decision was considered a defeat for the Orléans "side" in the dynastic rivalry, yet established no particular "rights" for the legitimists.)

I agree that there must be some sort of explanation about Sade's marquisate because readers, in general, want to know how he got it and what it implied, while British readers, in particular, will continue to be puzzled by and dubious of the way in which its use differs from what would have been the case in the UK. The problem isn't that we don't know or can't explain the usage, the problem is finding a source which delves into it with sufficient accuracy to become a citation. Nor is it possible to explain it on this page and preserve that explanation from archiving: the best explanation and best sourcing for what we know about it is, in fact, archived on this talk page here. FactStraight (talk) 04:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Religion...again

Was he raised in the Catholic faith is that why he was so anti-Catholic? (120.149.122.12 (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC))

Clarification of where de Sade actually writes this...

'Sade professed that the ultimate goal of an author should be to deliver an accurate portrayal of man,' is found in the literary criticism section but with no citation. It would be very useful for me to know either, or both, of the answers to the following questions. In what text does de Sade express this sentiment? What is the (or an) exact quotation? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.175.67.115 (talk) 17:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

"Frank-descended"

The article states:

The de Sade family were Noblesse d'épée, of the oldest, Frank-descended nobility ...

Is there any evidence that de Sade and the noblesse d'épée more generally were of Frankish descent, or was this claim some kind of propaganda put out by the French aristocracy itself? A reliable source would be useful. Norvo (talk) 00:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The apparent discrepancy in title between father and son shown by this letter may be explained as in this era a title born by the father conferred a title to the eldest or right heir during the life of the father to the next lower order of precedence. For example, in England during the 17th C it was customary for a father who was a baron for his eldest son to bear the title baronet.

This convention had at its basis the sovereign whose offspring were by right of birth conferred the title prince or princess. This practice fell out of favor as it caused great consternation and confusion in determining the order of precedence among the first sons who would hold a temporary title of the same rank as those who held the same title by inheritance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.15.72 (talk) 06:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Whoever told you that in England during the 17th C it was customary for the eldest son of a baron to bear the title baronet was, to put it very politely, misinformed. Not only it is completely false but it has also no relevance to the completely different naming customs of France.--Hors-la-loi (talk) 10:50, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Name

As has been mentioned before (see Archive 1), it is incorrect in French to refer to someone with a "de" in their name by the "de". He is referred to in French universally as Sade, not "De Sade" or "de Sade". I will go through the article now to correct this. The exception to the rule, by the way, is for names beginning with "Du". The reason for this is that "Du" is actually what you get when "de" combines with "Le" (i.e., "of the" masculine form), hence the name "Du Bartas", but "de La Fonataine" (where the name as spoken on its own is simply La Fontaine, not "De La Fontaine"). ZarhanFastfire (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Another comment about the name -- one of the header lines says "the family name is de Sade, not Sade" but throughout the article when the man is referred to by his surname it is simply "Sade". I'm inclined, like the previous poster, to believe that just "Sade" is correct, so what's up with the header line? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.34.56 (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The physical appearance of Marquis de Sade

Sade's height

In the document, Citoyen Sade au Comité de sureté générale it is noted that Sade was, at the age of 53, "Taille de cinq pieds deux pouces, cheveux sourcils blonds gris, front haut, et découvert, yeux bleu clair, nez moyen, bouche petite, menton rond, visage ovale et plein" (English: height of five feet and two inches, blond hair and gray eyebrows, high forehead, going bald, light blue eyes, medium nose, small mouth, round chin, full, oval face).

Confusion about his height results from the difference between the French Ancient Régime pied (32.484 cm) and pouce (2.707 cm) and the British foot (30.48 cm) and inch (2.54 cm). Therefore he was 1.6783 m tall.

Corpulence

Mme de Sade à Gaufridy : « Il [le marquis] se porte bien, mais il grossit beaucoup. » 2 avril 1790. [«The marquis is well, but he got fat.»] — M. de Sade à Gaufridy : «J'y ai acquis [à la Bastille], faute d'exercice, une corpulence si énorme qu'à peine puis-je me remuer... [«At the Bastille, for lack of exercise, I got so huge I can hardly move...»] (Vd. Vie du marquis de Sade by Gilbert Lély) — Ana Bruta (talk) 11:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Role during the French Revolution

Is there any evidence that he was a delegate to the National Convention? The French wiki and Schaeffers biography both state that he was heavily involved in Parisian local politics during this time and that he made a speech to the Convention in 1793. However was he actually a member like Robespierre, Danton et al? Also taking into account comments previously made on the talk page. CivisHibernius (talk) 12:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

There are many reasons for saying "Religion = None" rather than "Religion = None (atheist)" in Wikipedia infoboxes.

(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoboxes.)

There are many reasons for saying "Religion = None" rather than "Religion = None (atheist)" in Wikipedia infoboxes. They include:

It goes against our manual of style for infoboxes.

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Purpose of an infobox says:

• "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts that appear in the article. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance."

I might add that the infobox talk pages have a long history of rejecting the arguments of various editors who insist on trying to cram more and more information into the infoboxes, using the same basic argument: "yes this is well covered in the article, but this VITALLY IMPORTANT detail MUST be in the infobox as well because mumble mumble (waves hands)." Again and again, the overwhelming consensus has been to put only the bare minimum into the infobox and to expect the reader to read the actual article for the fine details and distinctions.

There is no consensus for it.

This was discussed at length at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 142#Changing "Religion = none" to "Religion = Atheist" on BLP infoboxes. Opinions were mixed, but the two positions with the most support were "Religion = None" or removing the Religion entry entirely.

A bit later, it was discussed at Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?. The result of that discussion in in the closing summary: "The preferred phrase would be 'Religion: None'."

More recently, I did a survey and found that hundreds of Wikipedia pages use "Religion: None" in the infobox and only five use "Religion = None (atheist)"

This reflects the strong consensus for "Religion: None" across multiple Wikipedia pages.

It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry

In the article, there is room for nuance and explanation, but in the infobox, we are limited to concise summaries of non-disputed material. Terms such as "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist", "areligious", and "anti-religion" mean different things to different people, but "Religion = None" is perfectly clear to all readers, and they can and should go to the article text to find out which of the subtly different variations of not belonging to a religion applies.

It is highly objectionable to many atheists.

Many atheists strongly object to anything that even hints at calling atheism a religion.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

One of the standard arguments that evangelic christian apologists use in an attempt to refute atheism is "atheism is just another religion. You need faith to believe that there is no God".[16][17][18][19][20][21][22] That's why so many atheists object to any hint that atheism is a religion and why before adding "(atheism)" there must be a reliable reliable source that establishes that the individual is [A] An atheist, and [B] considers atheism to be a religion.

In addition, "Religion: None (atheist)" usually fails to tell the whole story. Most atheists do reject theism, but they also reject all nontheistic religions and a wide variety of non-religious beliefs. "Religion = None (atheist)" actually narrows down the meaning of "Religion = None" to the point where in many cases the infobox entry is no longer accurate.

It violates the principle of least astonishment.

Consider what would happen if Lady Gaga decided to list "Banana" as her birth date. We would document that fact in the main article with a citation to a reliable source (along with other sources that disagree and say she was born on March 28, 1986). We would not put "Birth date = 1986 (banana)" in the infobox, because that would cause some readers to stop and say "wait...what? Banana is not a birth date...". Likewise we should not put anything in an infobox that would cause some readers to stop and say "wait...what? Atheism is not a religion..."

In my opinion, "Religion = None" remains the best choice for representing the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot, isn't it? WP guidelines and consensus statements are all well and good, but one of the great advantages of a wiki is its flexibility. There are exceptions to everything, and this, IMHO, is one. There is a profound difference between a person of "no religion" -- doesn't subscribe to any particular one, basically ignores all of them -- and a person who abominates religious belief and aggressively advocates the abolition of all religions of any kind. Sade was the latter -- "atheistic to the point of fanaticism", as he himself put it in his last will -- and he was notable for it. I have no argument with your contention that atheism is not a religion -- that's obvious on its face -- but to describe Sade as simply an unbeliever is plainly inaccurate. I also agree that "religion = none (atheism)" doesn't tell the whole story -- but in this particular case it is a way better alternative than "religion = none", which tells a grossly inaccurate story. Remember, many readers never get past the lede and the infobox; it would be a disservice to leave the impression with such readers that Sade was simply an unbeliever. When a subject is a militant atheist, and notable for it, an exception is warranted, in my opinion. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 14:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Editing against consensus

Now this has been to WP:ANI, and as I expected, the discussion there made it clear that my changing "Religion: None (atheist)" to "Religion: none" is supported by global consensus, and that the closing summary at Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?, specificly " 'Atheist' should not appear" and "The preferred phrase would be 'Religion: None' ", does indeed apply to my edits.

Quotes from the ANI discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Guy Macon posting large identical text blocks in growing number of venues:

• "The whole of the discussion is summed up in the closing statement. The closing statement says that "Atheist" should not be used because it is not a religion. That's undisputed. "Atheism" is not a religion. Period. The closer read the discussion for us. We don't need to revisit it. If you find fault with S Marshall's closing statement, take it to AN. If not, just drop it. To try to rehash the same thing again and again, contrary to the closing statement of a lengthy debate is real battleground behavior, and reminds me a bit of Collect." --Kraxler

• "The appropriateness of Guy's article edits in this regard seems pretty clear" --Rhododendrites

• "If it is something backed up by a large discussion, then I don't see how you, or anyone else, has the right to say he should find better things to do with his time. That's pretty offensive, if Guy is doing something that matches a more global consensus." --Lukeno94

• "There is no content dispute. WP:Consensus was established, was stated as such in the closing statement by S Marshall, and should be respected as such. ... Guy Macon's intention was to discourage edit-wars by stating clearly why the word "atheist" was removed. In the meanwhile it was removed from all articles where it was used in the "Religion" field of infoboxes, as prescribed by S Marshall's closing statement, and this whole discussion has become rather moot." --Kraxler

So once again, I am editing this page to reflect that clear consensus and reverting attempts to ignore or reinterpret consensus. I strongly urge taking this to WP:ANI instead of edit warring to push a version that is clearly against consensus. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:42, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

One must choose one's battles, and I simply don't care enough about this one to discuss it further. But I would humbly offer the observation -- with all due respect -- that by ignoring dissenting comments (e.g. above) and simply repeating your inviolable position -- by declining to respond to the suggestion that exceptions might exist -- you are in effect insisting that this is a purely black-and-white issue with no room for any nuance of gray whatsoever. That is unfortunate. Consensus is all well and good, but it doesn't prohibit flexibility, where appropriate. In most cases, I think your position is correct; but in the case of Sade and a few others, who advocated atheism with a fervor that rivaled that of the most zealous religious fanatics, I think your inflexibility works to the detriment of the project. And with that I'll move on. If you want the last word you're welcome to it. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/

_{talk to me!} 04:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• I would agree with the suggestion that de Sade's religion should be listed on the infobox as 'Atheist' his religious beliefs or lack thereof were certainly something which I was interested in when I first looked at the infobox, and 'none' does not give an accurate conception of his religious beliefs.

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:38, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

"Sade"

The usage and primary topic of Sade is under discussion, see talk:Sade Adu -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:55, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Name again

I see someone or some people have not bothered reading the talk page and once again the entire article reads incorrectly "de Sade" this, "de Sade" that. See my comment above for the explanation why "Sade" is the only surname to be used unless referring to him by his marquis title (which in French is not capitalized). ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC) The confusion appears to have arisen from an unsourced note at the beginning of the article stating:

 This is a Romance language name. The family name is "de Sade", not "Sade".

This is true as far as it goes, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with how you refer to such names conventionally in French, which is more important than that assertion is capable of encompassing or its author understood. Look at all the French sources cited which refer simply to Sade. I even had to correct one of them after double checking on Google that yes indeed the article appears with Sade, not de Sade, which someone inserted into the title reference. Once again: La Fontaine's Fables. Not "De La Fontaine's Fables." Just look it up. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 07:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC) Here is a typical sentence from the French version of the article (French Wikipedia):

 En 1769, Sade est en Provence. Bals et comédies se succèdent à Lacoste.

I'm removing the note from the article. It serves no purpose other than to create confusion and encourage people to refer to Sade incorrectly as 'de Sade' here and elsewhere.ZarhanFastfire (talk) 07:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

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Abbé

“he was tutored by Abbé Jacques-François Amblet, a priest”

When is an Abbé not a priest ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:C100:D1DA:3F8B:4B15 (talk) 06:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

When it’s a jar! StrexcorpEmployee (talk) 02:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Why is there a graphic added to the definition of 'anal sex' in this article?

A graphic of anal sex accompanies the description of the term when it is referenced in the article on the Marquis de Sade. Is it not sufficient to have a written description? I am aware that this picture could be accessed by a child. The visual is arguably a pornographic image and an unnecessary addition to the description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.64.89 (talk) 14:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the image is unnecessary in this context; the activity is linked to the relevant article, and that should suffice. -- The Anome (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

"Influenced"

The "Influenced" section in the infobox is kind of a mess. A huge list of names, each tagged CN. What value does it add to include so many unsourced claims? Schazjmd (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Good point. I’m for scrapping all those names entirely and adding each influence one by one with sourcing. PNople (talk) 12:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Dubious Connections of De Sade with Hitler, Nazism, The Holocaust, and other Fascist-Aligned Events

G. T. Roche appears to be a dubious academic source as the user here states he makes connections of De Sade with: Hitler, Nazism, The Holocaust, Anti-Semitism, Social Darwinism, etc.. I’ve deleted such connections on this page as they can be misleading on wikipedia to someone trying to understand De Sade’s work. There is no indication that De Sade intended to bring about anything remotely similar to any of these events. De Sade was closely allied with anarchism, this is the exact opposite of fascism. I’ve left general reference to G. T. Roche on the page, but if others find his writings to be dubious, please delete it. PNople (talk) 04:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

A) you haven't show either he's dubious, or that De Sade didn't have such views.

B) his claims are more subtle. If you read him, he doesn't claim a direct link to fascism etc. This one guy's view, and seems proper under "Assessment and Criticism". Obviously not everyone agrees on this.

C) Roche doesn't go into Sade's crimes or allegations thereof that I recall. So please do get it right.Mcc1789 (talk)

So, why start this if you were just going to delete that without getting others' input? Again, you've given no reason for thinking Roche is a "dubious" source, expect you disagree with his take. That's fine, you're entitled, and add others who do too if you like. However, it seems like original research for you to just make that assessment yourself here without evidence. Still, unlike you I'm not going to simply undo this. Let others weigh in. Previously, you did this with the reason that no page numbers were given. Now you've changed your reasoning to something else. I still maintain this belongs under assessment and criticism, by definition, and disagreement with his interpretation is not reason enough for deletion.Mcc1789 (talk) 18:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

You haven’t responded to all my concerns here. I don’t understand why you’re bringing up the unverified allegations of De Sade’s sex crimes. We’re talking about Roche in this subject. Let’s see others’ input on this (Everyone please see Mcc1789’s addition on April 23, 2021 at 4:18pm about Roche to see the issues I think are important). PNople (talk) 19:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I mentioned it only to say that Roche doesn't discuss that. You brought that up initially-I'm not sure why, since they weren't part of what you reverted. Why not see people's inputs before deleting it?

P.S. I re-added part of it, but with no mention of his specific conclusions.Mcc1789 (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

The unverified claims of sexual abuse are a different subject. Not for this thread.

I’m fine with the second sentence and resource. I see the paper is available for people to read online, which is preferable. However, the first cited source “Unblinking Gaze”, is not available to read. Can you link that source to a version that can be read in it’s entirety? If not, I think we should take it out. It’s important that everyone can access a full paper, especially if it contains controversial content. PNople (talk) 20:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Fine.

My bad on the link. It was in there before. Re-added that. Please do read those, at least the specific parts cited (I'm aware that the first source is quite long).Mcc1789 (talk) 23:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Edits by user Mcc1789 attempts to connect De Sade to fascism and sex crimes he didn’t commit

How does everyone feel about about this? (See history of edits). To me, Mcc1789 seems to be wanting to tarnish De Sade’s image with unverified claims. PNople (talk) 05:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not trying to do that. Read what he says.Mcc1789 (talk)

You haven’t addressed your previous edits where you tried to include unverified allegations of sex crimes by De Sade. I think it’s important the community knows those type of additions came from you. I’m not saying you shouldn’t contribute other helpful info about De Sade. The issue to me is that your recent edits seem to be aimed at tarnishing De Sade’s image with unverified claims. PNople (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about the previous edits. In any case, you seem to be attempting tarnishing of me here, with changing the topic onto those rather than my edit which you've reverted. You can verify the claims Roche makes, easily. I provided page numbers from his work-he cites De Sade's books. Your issue seems to be you disagree with his assessment of Sade. Which is fine, but why's that justification to revert anything? You seem to conflate claims about Sade's acts and his philosophy.Mcc1789 (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

How do you not know about your own previous edits? You aren’t really responding to my concerns here. I feel you should try to be better about your sourcing, make it more specific so people can verify what you add to this page. For each particular premise, have a particular page number. And try to keep objectionable claims off the page. PNople (talk) 20:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I know about them, I'm not sure what you say is correct though. You may be right however, in which case my apologies. The last sources that I added though can be verified. Even so, you reverted them. I added page numbers as well. Why should controversial claims be omitted if there are verifiable sources, as here? Is there a rule about that?Mcc1789 (talk) 23:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I think controversial claims are ok as long as you have adequate sourcing for the statements you put on here. So it’s important to be particular in your wording and cite a particular page number for each premise and statement. I feel what you had earlier was way overbroad in connecting De Sade to fascism. You don’t want to be misleading to someone who wants to learn about De Sade. PNople (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Sade's sex crimes

He was repeatedly accused and more than once convicted of sexual assault or abuse against others. So yes, there is evidence of this. Mcc1789 (talk) 17:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

If you have cites for this, please feel free to add it to the article. -- The Anome (talk) 22:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The only link you listed that works is the Britannica one. We shouldn’t use Britannica as a resource here. It’s inadequate in that it doesn’t cite the particular page numbers in each resource where each set of events are alleged. Therefore we cannot investigate the empirical veracity of these claims.

As far as I know, De Sade never sexually abused anyone. All sex he engaged in was consensual. I’ve cited particular page numbers for these empirical facts. No one has cited particular page numbers to refute these facts. Please revert the changes so that the page does not make any mention of sexual abuse unless you have particular page numbers so we can investigate the veracity of that claim. PNople (talk) 03:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

The article does not so much as mention the Rose Keller case, in which he was accused of kidnapping and torturing a working class woman:

http://www.artandpopularculture.com/Rose_Keller While his defenders dispute her version, the case is well-known enough it certainly deserves to be mentioned.

Gorer is one who dismisses her claims, but he also goes on here to outline the other great accusation against him, that he slipped Spanish Fly to prostitutes and made them very ill.

https://books.google.com/books?id=cZ98CgAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PP1&dq=sade%20rose%20keller&pg=PT23#v=onepage&q&f=false

All of these cases should be addressed in the article, even if his defenders claims deserve a place there as well. 2600:1700:8D40:9B60:A577:B72F:B8C:B1A3 (talk) 04:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Your factual assertions here aren’t verified. That first source is not a good source at all to use. And the allegations of him whipping a woman are already addressed in the article.

Where does that book say he intentionally slipped prostitutes Spanish Fly to make them ill? I don’t see it in the link you provided. You need to have particular page numbers and quotes for verification purposes. PNople (talk) 05:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

I cannot parse this sentence: "Additionally, he criticizes the idea Sade demonstrated morality cannot be based on reason.[30]"

Could someone please clarify the meaning? It would be helpful to have the precise page number and quote.

To that end I managed to download the cited paper from https://www.academia.edu/38154333 (with some difficulty: they two times reported I was making a suspicious access), and found 47 mentions of "morality" and 31 of "reason":

• Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer, in Dialectic of Enlightenment [Dialektik der Aufklärung, first published in 1944], argue that Donatien-Alphonse-François, the Marquis de Sade (1740–1814), and Friedrich Nietzsche have brought the Enlightenment project of grounding morality in reason to an end.
• Marcel Hénaff, Susan Neiman, and Annie Le Brun have similarly suggested that Sade has demonstrated that morality is no more philosophically justified than immorality. 2
• Sade’s variant of this view holds that a morality can be derived from the natural order, which for Sade demands aggression and domination of others.

and the third mention of "reason"

• Sade offers three arguments for moral scepticism in his novels. The first is based on moral relativism: the claim that moral differences across cultures show that there is no universal moral truth. The second argument holds that morality cannot be grounded in reason alone. Thirdly, Sade argues that moral guidance cannot be sought in moral sentiments.

I guess this is the closest (Sade claims reason alone cannot derive morality), but what is the article's sentence trying to say?

-84user (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The author helpfully replied to my request pointing to the relevant supporting quote on page 13 of the academia extract (page 52 in the journal). I added two "that"s to hopefully clarify the rather vague article sentence, but it's still not fully clear to me: "Additionally, he criticizes the idea Sade showed morality cannot have a rational basis, and acting morally is no more justified than being immoral."

-84user (talk) 14:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

User 47.156.250.113 warned for improper removal of info

I’ve warned this user about their removal of information on this page which was adequately cited. Their reasoning was conclusory and had no citations.

Everyone please keep an eye out on this page and revert these improper edits. It helps to warn the users too and report them if they continue to mess with the page. It’s usually anonymous users with their IP addresses that have done this on this page. PNople (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Influenced addition needed.

‘The Rebel’ by Albert Camus contains multiple references and quotes to and by DeSade. Camus should be added to the influenced list. 2600:4040:B8C8:B900:897:1091:E41D:7605 (talk) 13:10, 29 September 2022 (UTC)