Talk:Mazandaran province

Georgian Mazandarani

Those people who delete the georgians as a people of mazandaran are really ignorant about the history of Mazandaran. There is no sophicticated research needed to know the history of georgian settlement in Mazandaran. Still many villages, town, and neighborhoods in Mazandaran bear the ethnonym "Gorji" i.e. Georgian in persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.86.252.228 (talk) 23:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

Who has deleted that part about Eskandar beyg Monshi mentioning the settlement of Mazandaran by georgians? It is noyt nice to deny the truth. By the way for those people who still discuss whether mazandaranis are this race or that race. 200 000 Georgians were settled in mazandaran in the 17th century. Just count how much would it be now. Also the genetic research of Iranian, georgian and German scientists proved that Amazandaranis have Georgian blood. Also all over mazandaran there are palce names with Gorji this and Gorji that. I am tired of editing wikipedia for a while but it is not nice what has been done. --Babakexorramdin 19:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply by Mazanderani

There are too many high important topics to talking about, I am not sure who deleted it, but he did the right job, Your contents must not be in the history section, It must have it's appropriate section, I can prove that Georgians have Mazandarani blood instead of your state, During Russo-Persian wars, Mazandarani mens encounterd Georgian women, As the father of grand father of my grand father married georgian girl, So mtDNA of them differs from us and we have close YDNA genes, Those Scientists also proved that Armenians and Aran Azeris resemble Mazandaranis and Gilakis, So they have Georgian blood, Huh ? In my genealogy there is no trace of Georgians except the grand mother of grand father of my father.

There are many towns and villages named after georgians but you can note them in Geography or Demographics section, and not history section which is not appropriated. --Ali 02:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It is like this: in the 17th century Mazandaran was not what it is today. It was less densely populated. There are many historical accounts on that, e.g,. description of Chardin. There was a big deseas 'Taun'. Men had left Mazandaran in great numbers. Shah Abbas thought that he should revitalize mazandaran. He settled there 200 000 Georgian. It has nothing to do with Russo-Iranian wars. These Georgians have intermarried with the locals and adopted the Ma]zandarni language. But they are a big share of Mazandarani population still. In other words: Mazandaranis and Georgians are brethern not cousins.--Babakexorramdin 09:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Shameless act on denying the proud Georgian Mazandarani

Dear Behnam, Please do not remove the Georgians from Mazadnaran. I do not see any reasons of your animosity towards the Georgians. Georgians constitute a substantial part of Mazandaran. Still many towns and villages as well as big neighborhoods in Mazanadarani cities bear the name Georgian. read some historical books.Shah Abbas has settled Mazandaran with Georgians. Read e.g. Tarikh-e Alam-Ara-ye Abbasi. Read Jaygah-e Gorjian by Said Muliani, Read Iranian-e Gorji by Mohammad Sepiani. I do not know whether you are Mazandarani or not. Probably you aren't because otherwise you knew this.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:The_Behnam"

I removed it because it didn't appear to be sourced, and others had removed it. You need to provide strong evidence that there is a significant Georgian population in Mazandaran, using reliable sources. This isn't about denying you, this is just about playing by the rules. I don't have anything against Georgians, and in fact, I don't believe I have ever encountered one until here. Please stay calm. The Behnam 18:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

the part that was deleted was in the info box of the article in the "language section". To put their language in that section you must provide citations that their population is high and they are not assimilated to mainstream society. you said in my talk page that ", but many others are aware of their Georgianness. The genetical impact of South Caucasian genes un the Mazandarani genetical make-up is confirmed by a recent research (see the page on Mazandarani people)". We do not talk about genetics here, in that sense, united states of America would be called a Germanic state not english! see e.g. German American--Pejman47 18:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

oh I see, there are no strong referrences? The things I said are no referrences? No dear I suspect that Tehrani people (Persianized Azeris) think that Georgians are Turks. No dear. Please do not deny the Iranian history. Iranian Georgians have played a significant role in the Iranian history.

I have every reason not to be calm. I do so many efforts to provide information about my country, while some people try to give false information.

Ok Sources so many I gave you at least 3 and if you go to the Page Georgians in Iran, you see many external links too. It is also shameless that you deleted Iran from the list of countries wher Georgian is spoken, DESPITE the fact that the page provided a link to ethnologue.

Unfortunately in our country both Persian chauvinists and Panturkists try to depict Iran as a relatively homogeneous country at the cost of the smaller ethnic groups. Dear friends, Our country is a multi-Lingual, multi-religious and multi-ethnic country. All this diversity adds to the attraction and cultural richness of our country. Babakexorramdin

first i repeat the Behnam " I don't have anything against Georgians, and in fact, I don't believe I have ever encountered one until here. Please stay calm." and please don't insult and attack and judge other user (I am not any type of what you mentioned!). And this article is the only article that I edited regarding Georgians in my life. And you didn't give any references to me (in fact it is my first encounter with you!) and for god 's sake, read other people 's responses before answering. You yourself in my talk page said :"Many are assimilated into the mainstream Mazandaranis". And in above I remembered you the definition of word "Assimilation" is unrelated to Genetics: "when some people is assimilated, they LOST their language and custom." and the change in the article was just about language not people. And remember that name of lots of cities in central Asia is in Persian, but they don't speak Persian. The other example is the name of cities and places in Canada, lots of them is INDIAN for example Toronto means "place where trees stand in the water"....

You mentioned Ethnologue but did you ever troubled yourself for reading it? [1] I cut-paste its contents here "50,000 in Iran." and "Fereydan and Fereydunshahr provinces, Esfahan, Najaf Abad, Shahin Shahr, Yazdanshahr." (All of them in Isfahan Province and you see that I didn't delete Georgian from Isfahan! next time, I only answer the rational questions, take care.--Pejman47 20:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who contributed the info to ethnologue. At that time I did not have any indications that the Mazandarani Georgians speak Georgian, at this time however there are indications, in fact it is on revival. I referred to ethnologue, because of the Tehruni guy who stated that there "live no Georgians in Iran". These guys have the mentality to deny everything which they do not know. This mindset is very annoying. And yes, you or your colleagues WERE busy with a crusade against the Geoirgians of Iran. You deleted evry single referrence to them in every page of wikipedia. Even the Esfahan province was not spared. This mindset comes from people who themselves have lost their cultural feautures and live in a homogenzing world, a largely black and white world. And I have one question. Do you have ever provided us any referrence that in East Azerbaijan, Kurdistan or Baluchistan, any Persian is spoken? Another shamless act was that they deleted "Kurds" in the row of ' persians, Kurds and other Iranian peoples" as ethnic relatives of Baluchis. No my friend, these acts suffer from what I said.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Babakexorramdin (talk • contribs) 16:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Just something to add: The guys who deleted Georgians, were those who deleted Armenians in the Markazi province page, and denied that there live Azeris in Qom. It is funny that under the Mazrkazi province page stood the web sites of Ostandari and Cultural heritage as sources. These were sources which indeed reported about the Armenian concentration in the Markazi province. As I said these acts suffer either from a serious lack of knowledge, or attempts of homogenization, but in either case they are arrogant acts because they ridicule the level of knowledge and wisdom of others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Babakexorramdin (talk • contribs) 16:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

I think you are confused if you think that there is a "crusade" going on here. Nothing of the sort. The 'Georgian' reference is being removed because nothing reliable indicates that there is a sizable Georgian minority in Mazandaran that retains its ethnic distinction. I don't believe there is any wider conspiracy against Iranian minorities or promoting homogenization either. So, you should stop worrying, stop attacking us, and stop senselessly reverting our edits. Thanks. The Behnam 00:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

first of all minority are you guys in california, all Iranians are simply Iranians. The terms like minority are used by anti-Iranians like Brenda Shaffer. In fact Tehrani arrogants and Californian Persians who exclude large parts of Iranian poulauation from the mainstream are not much better than she is. Secondly I brought you the sources Alam-Ara, Muliani and Sepiani. It is the top level of ignorance to call a royal historian from 17th century as unreliable with regard to the Georgian settlement in Mazandaran by Shah Abbas . If your problem was only language, why did you delete that part of history? Why you deleted the gentical research on Mazandaranis?

And I see on the Behnam's page things like Indo-Iranian etc... I suggest you better go and write about hinduism and budhism and leave Iranian ethnography and history for professionals. Babakexorramdin 02:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

And by the way you didnt answer all other things e.g. Markazi, Khorasan and the page on Georgian language. Where there no 'reliable" sources that says there live Georgians in Iran? And you even deleted Armenians from Esfahan page. Dear friend HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF JOLFA? No it is not in orange county, it is in Esfahan, and it is the cultural center of Parskahay (Iranian Armenians) seat of Armenian church for Iran and also India and Indonesia. Babakexorramdin 02:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• First, I just have to compliment how much more "professional" you are than us. It is clear and obvious to all because of your professional tone, good manners, and self-imposed emotional detachment from the subject.
• Anyway, I must reiterate that the actions of other users on other pages has nothing to do with this page, so stop insisting that we answer your questions about those pages.
• Please stop your personal attacks against other editors, and defamatory remarks about Tehrani and Californian Persians. Please read WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:AGF.
• The dispute is about languages spoken in Mazandaran now, so the fact that Georgians came and were assimilated under Shah Abbas has nothing to do with this if there is no longer a sizable Georgian-speaking minority.
• So far, no reliable evidence has been presented describing a sizable Georgian-speaking group in Mazandaran Province. You were supposed to find this but you instead attacked us and brought up irrelevant centuries-old migration issues.
• Please do not discourage editors from editing; again, see WP:CIVIL.
• Note: Further violations of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:AGF may lead to an incident report about your disruptive behavior. Please stop. Thanks. The Behnam 03:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not attack you but the mindset. Furthermore nothing proves the assimilation under Shah Abbas. I said read the sources I mentioned, moreover the reaserch by Barzegar is still going on. And I said if you have problem with the language thing, wy you deleted the whole section on the settlement? And do not tell me that vandalism in the page of Georgian language wasnt yours! I might have been very harsh, appology for that, but every other would be furious if he had spent years of reasearching and studying a subject and that someone says "oh I havent seen one, so prove they exist". I saw it as a personal insult Babakexorramdin 03:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It was an attack on me, but I'll let you off easy for now if you realize that it is not appropriate to disparage other users. You should know that I'm not doing this to attack you or crusade against Georgians or anything like that. I didn't make any edits to those pages; you must be thinking of a different user. Don't accuse me of anything unless you have solid proof. Also, I didn't delete the entire section of anything, just the 'main language' assertion. If you know of some research saying that there is a sizable and significant Georgian-speaking minority in Mazandaran, please provide sources so we know why it should be added to the article. It is fine to mention Georgian ethnicity since you have sources both genetic and historical, but don't add Georgian as a main language unless there is a reliable source for the language assertion. Again, nobody is trying to insult you with these edits, we are just adhering to the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. Thanks again. The Behnam 03:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought that the deletions in other pages were from you because of the similar IP numbers, but I might be wrong. sorry for that. But it let you see that how annoying this mindset is, and why ethnography has a hardtime to florish in Iran. I am ok with the people, and not mentioning the speakers for the time being; I said for the time-being because two of my colleagues are doing research right now. My position was that many many Mazandarani Georgians reatin their ideitity but the language is lost in the late 1970s, BUT I got new evidences due to the newest research. Not amazingly, because there has not been any valuable ethnographic or ethno-historian reasearch in Iran (except Kasravi). Anyway having said this I want to invite you to cooperate on serious first hand research instead waste our and your energy on edit and re-edit. thanks Babakexorramdin 04:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That is odd; I don't think my IP address even shows when I edit. Yes, there is definitely an overall lack of study on these subjects. OK, if you find something you think is relevant, post it here on the talk page so we can take a look. Thanks The Behnam 13:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

an example of the mindsit from this user

Just judge objectively!:: BTW . just takle a look at the actions of this guy. Is it OK? Now tell me honestly is it ok what this Persian supremacist does? And you implicitely and explictly support him? But deffending his vandalisms against my corrections? From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia For 83.250.75.190 (Talk | Block log | Logs) Jump to: navigation, search

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14:54, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Georgian language (georgian is not spoken in Iran) 14:53, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Georgian language 14:51, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Isfahan Province 10:40, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Arak, Iran 10:40, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Arak, Iran (it doesnt live any armenians or azeris or kurds in arak) 10:21, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Markazi Province (nobody speak's armenian in the markazi province) 10:20, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Qom Province (nobody speak azeri in qom, why are you writing so much bull?) 10:18, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Sistan and Baluchestan Province 23:05, 10 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Baloch people (Newest | Oldest) View (Newer 50) (Older 50) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500). User contributions From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia For 83.250.67.40 (Talk | Block log | Logs) Jump to: navigation, search

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12:25, 14 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Isfahan Province 12:22, 14 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Aylar Lie (aylar is a turkish name not persian) (top) 07:26, 14 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Hamadān Province (azeri is not spoken in hamedan) (top) 07:23, 14 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Kermān Province (top) 20:56, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Abdul Basit (top) 20:56, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Abdul Basit 20:55, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Abdul Basit (Newest | Oldest) View (Newer 50) (Older 50) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500).

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions"

Just take a look, and be objective. Is it not shameless? Babakexorramdin 12:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you really think it is a big problem, you could file a report, but honestly, that guy is a very minor contributor, and hasn't contributed for a few days. He is probably not a big deal. Anyway, the problem appears to be a disagreement over the main language distribution, and considering that aside from Persian (which is obviously present in each region since it is a the main language), there isn't much info on the languages, he is probably just removing those because they don't make sense according to his knowledge. You really can't call it vandalism; it isn't like he is removing well-sourced material here. Anyway, I think a report wouldn't go anywhere. The Behnam 13:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Behnam, the guy has sytematically vandalized all pages about the languages of Iran. Maybe the guy has more IP's. We don't know, but these acts are more systematic and consistent with the Fars supremacist agenda. I do not know however that the guy is Fars supremacist himslef; maybe he is "someone" there to create ethnic tensions in Iran. be aware of these guys. Please see the last book review of "Brenda Shaffer", the main advocate of ethnic unrest in Iran. I only know that the ethnic situation in Iran is being abused by many with an agenda! I disagree about that the the guy is not removing "well-sourced" material. In fact he is removing the facts which could be derived from the sources which were already provided in and under the page (e.g. the Markazi province!). Babakexorramdin 16:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, in that case just keep investigating, and in the meantime, simply source the statements about minority languages. You are safe if you provide reliable sources for assertions. The Behnam 16:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

As I said the reliable sources are/were already mentioned. And please do not say "minority" languages. Unlike the Soviet Union or Yugoslavi, the Iranian nation is not defined by ethno-linguistic dominance. We have different ethnic groups and different languages, but we have defintely no minority languages in Iran!!!Babakexorramdin 16:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources indicating that those minority languages are main languages in those provinces, just be sure to explicitly source this, and if others keep removing the information without elaboration, you should probably report an incident or otherwise seek administrative action. But make sure that the information is about the languages, not just the ethnicity. I say "minority" because the mentioned languages and ethnicities do not comprise a majority of the population, aside from Persian language. The Behnam 16:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Again the aforemntioned user has vandalized: he removed Georgian and Armenian from Esfahan province (look how stupid this assertion is, while all sources indicate otherwise. Has he ever heard of Jolfa, or Fereydan, or Fereydunshahr????]]. And he has removed Baluchi from Kerman and Azeri from Hamedan. All sources in those pages provide the information that these languages were spoken in those provinces, so does the map of ethno-linguistic distribution in Iran does. This guy should be reported as a valndalist! And I again urge you do not call "MINORITY". and Dont be selective in favor of persian vs. non-Persian languages. Babakexorramdin 17:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, give him warnings on his talk page. See WP:UTM for the various templates. You may have to report the problem. Look at WP:DR and WP:VANDAL for more information. Again, be sure that your assertions have strong sources before you start any sort of report, because if they don't, you'll look foolish. The Behnam 17:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

As I said he acts against all common knowledge and the provided explicite sources. Moreover I have woarnbed him and talked sense to him, it seems that he is at it to make trouble. These are people who try to absorb Iranians energy and wate their efforts. I seriously think that he is doing this intentionally and won't wonder if he is not an Iranian. His actions are in fact too similar to those of people like "Brenda Shaffer", who tyries to insitgate ethnic tension in Iran. Babakexorramdin 17:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The sources

Sorry to say this but I do not think that your newest additions with regard to the languages adds anything valuable. 1- It is evident that Mazandaranis speak Mazandarani. Moreover the artclie you brought does not prove that there is a sizable native Persianspeaking population in Mazandaran. It speaks of Mazandarani revitalization despite the fact that Persian is the official language of Iran. Moreover the article has some weaknesses; coexistence and conflict do people, not languages. Languages always coexist. Languages have no will, they are there, coexistence of languages does not make sense for ethnographic discussion unless it is linked to the coexistence of the speakers of languages. Having said this, for me there is no discussion that there is a Persian-speaking community in Mazandaran, though not a native one (a lot of them are of course the tourists in the summer time). Babakexorramdin 03:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Evident or otherwise, it does not hurt to cite Mazandarani. Anyway, the article makes it pretty clear that Persian is a main language in Mazandaran. It describes Persian as the "lingua franca," describes the decline of Mazandarani language as a result of a "widespread use of Persian," then mentioning that "An overwhelming majority of the population of the province is now bilingual," still talking about Mazandarani and Persian. There may still be more examples. The article has a great deal about the decline of Mazandarani in the face of Persian language; I recommend you give it another read. The Behnam 04:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

then isnt it fair to mention English and German as main languages in many parts of Iran? Babakexorramdin 04:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably not. While it is clear that Mazandarani and Persian are both used extensively in communication between people in Mazandaran, speaking English or German to each other does not appear to be quite as prevalent. For example, it is safe to say that most Americans, especially those who grew up here, know how to speak Pig Latin, but the fact that they do not regularly use Pig Latin in communication prevents Pig Latin from being considered a "main language." The Behnam 04:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The template is complete inaccurate

Tabarestan (known as Mazandaran from 12th century onward) was part of Mede,Achaemenid,Parthian, Sassanid empire. Cadusi is actually in the Talesh area of Gilan. The other native Parthian house-holds (Sokhra, Goshnasp..etc) were part of the Parthian empire. These households asserted themselves after the Arab invasion. --alidoostzadeh 02:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You may want to talk to User:Ali1986 about that if you haven't already. Also, consider editing Template:History of Tabaria if you want to make corrections directly. Unfortunately, I don't know much about it, though I was confused by the great number of entities on the template. Probably a sign that it is inaccurate, but anyway, talk to Ali about it. The Behnam 02:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks I have some books about Mazandaran. Note the current template contradicts another article [2]--alidoostzadeh 03:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Who assumes themselves as "Tabarians"? Medes were proud ancestors of Kurds?!! They were proud of their descendants?! The template is not necessary --Rayis 18:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Message from a Mazenderani

It’s great that you people are into the whole Mazenderan thing, but maybe not as much as we Mazenderanis are. We are a part of Iran and we are not separatists. We might look like Azeris, speak like Kurds or act like Persians, but we (Guilaks and Mazenderanis) are proud to be Iranians. In my Mazenderani family tree, you will find Georgian, Russian, Persian and even Azeri heritage. But still we remain Iranians, unlike some Kurds and Pan-Turks who wish to separate from this great land. And to those who truly believe that there are no Georgians in Mazenderan, I suggest a trip to Mazenderan and see that with your own eyes. There are Jews, Armenians and Georgian villages/parts of towns. The Iranian origins of the Mazenderanis (except Turkmen minorities in the East) and Guilaks are said to be Scytho-Parthians & Medes. Modern Mazenderani language is closely related to the Pahlavi language (which resembles Kurdish). Also the local Tapuri dialects are closely related to the Scythian languages (use of expressions, seasonal terms and rituals etc.). Some scholars even believe that the Pre-Imperial Persians hailed from the Southern Caspian region.

PS: most Mazenderanis speak both Persian and Mazenderani (mostly used in the villages and family reunions). However it is sad that some narrow-minded Tehranis who spend their holidays in Shomal make fun of their accents. Mazenderanis are nevertheless simple & strong people and very proud to be Iranians.

The rich history of Mazandaran

I appreciate you for costing your time, (About 1 hour 40 min) to reading the references, But it also got about 2 days and 1 night to gathering the most reliable sources and filtering out other trivia refrences to preparing Mazandaran article as to be candidated for Good Articles, which at least needs a high quality header.

Please note that:

Your removed references listed below :

• http://www.chnpress.com/tourism/Attractions/Mazandaran/ CHN Page for Mazandaran
• http://www.shaghaghi.net/2004/02/ 8000 Years of Iranian History
• http://www.cais -soas com/News/2005/November2005/07-11.htm spam filter blocked?

Your removed referenced contents :

• and former Kingdom of Tapuria
• Moreover recent excavations in Goher Tippe, which reflects that it has been having more than 5 millennium years urbanization phase of civilization

Your other removed items :

• who have distinguishable culture and language from other Iranians,
• but lasted semi-independent by local Pavand rulers until 1930 Centralized government is a 20 centaury paradigm in Iran and semi-independent goverments were in all over Iran and not only in Mazandaran, but still needs to be noted

Your unfair contents :

• After migration of Aryans to Iranian Plateau aound 1500 BC
• Persian Empire province of Hyrcania Although it is there in economicexpert, but i can provide countless references that it was not part of iran or persian province
• After reunification of Iran by Safavids no reunifacation of iran done during 1590-1600

Somewhat i agree with you:

• Climatic conditions of Mazandaran have prevented the preservation of historical monuments. Thus there are only a few sound vestiges remaining from pre-Islamic periods in the coastal plains of Mazandaran is nonsense
• where it limits from east to Modern-day Tajikestan and west to Caucasia. which is a semi-mistake, but reuqires more attention.

Where is pejman who claimed it as OR first ?

Bu metaleblar olsoun juz'de, Ban Diliya hatmen bu sahyfa varde, Mazandaran Yashayin !

--Ali 21:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ali, as a general suggestion may I ask you to write all your comments on the English WP in the English language? By default, that's the only language you can assume every editor on this part of WP to understand, and we don't want to create any misunderstandings, do we? Thanks in advance. Shervink 12:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, Yes, Allllright! That turkish sentence means: These notes are correct and ok, Since i am the native of the region, my contributions must be there, God bless Mazandaran!
See your talk page, --Ali 21:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

What you did is a major change and it needs discussion and getting consensus. To have a major change you should be patient. Sometimes adding only one word to an article needs days of discussion. I feel that we need to talk about every change one by one. After getting consensus about each of them we will add them one by one. But do not forget that introduction page should reflect the article contents and it should be essence of the article. After each consensus we will apply changes to corresponding section. Then we will re-write the introductory based on the content of the article. I restore the old version of the article (before your changes). We start adding everything one by one. Please be patient. I will add the first very soon--behmod talk 21:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Please note that i haven't enough time to discuss, Specially now, while i am not at home for one week, Also how can i trust you all ? As you nominate it as OR, Also Pejman who added Hoax in the tapuria article, And japed others, You were stating these are OR till somedays ago, Now you looking forward to discuss ? Please note that if something would be done that is object to Mazandaran where i am so sensitive in it, it influences so much that i'll look to making some barriers for them, I can obviesly see what will be happen (It will be happen on saturday), I ask you to respecting the works of each other, Which you never did --Ali 22:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on general consensus. If you are not able to play based on wiki editing rules, and if you do not see the ability of constructive discussion in yourself, I do not think that that Wikipedia is a suitable place for you. What is important for us is the factual accuracy of entries. I feel that your tone is very emotional. Please use a NPOV and not an emotional tone.

We said that it is OR because you did not provide any reference. Even now, most of your entries are your interpretation from those sources and most of provided sources do not support your POV(Regardless that most of your sources are not scholarly sources.) Now, I can discuss because we have sth to discuss. What we had before bunch of unsourced states If you do not have time contact AliDoostzadeh. He is expert is this topic if he agrees with your edits. I have no problem with them.--behmod talk 22:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for reminding me what wp is based on, I also learn that wp is not soapbox ...
I have some doubts with constructive discussion, As well as the term 'We Said ...' , which discuss? And who are the others? So you confirm that you cann't understand the feeling of others? by writing the sentence 'your tones is ...' since i am not in that mood
It's really amazing that now you have sth 2 discuss! Which i never saw it here around the topic, Also the rest of your notes werent clear enough --Ali 00:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to help you but you are reluctant to collaborate with others. I spent hours to read your references and I was trying to find a solution for this dispute!

Just look at what you have done so far. You added many entries without any reference and you were wondering why others label your POV as original research! You surprised why others do not discuss with you! What was available to discuss! Discussion based on what?! Which reference?!

Then you brought many references, most of them are not academic and reliable sources (I mean, can't be used as a reference in a journal paper) and expected others accept your POV without any question! Even, if we accept your references, they are not consistence with your states in the article. Please respect other user. Our time is not without any value, either!

Your attitude discredits your POV. You are editing WP aggressively and do not treat respectfully with other users!

--behmod talk 03:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Ignoring policy

Restoring any original research [3] (whether it be unsourced or an original interpretation or synthesis of sources) is a violation of policy. You don't 'hide' problems by eliminating tags and restoring bogus citations (we cannot use WP mirrors as a source, and we cannot use sources that are not reliable). Don't simply restore unsourced sections - get a supporting RS, and then you can put it back. Nothing should be added (or retained) unless it has an RS explicitly supporting it. Further violations may result in consequences for the violator.

BTW, Ali, while I really doubt that you read my edit summaries anyway (or else you wouldn't have reverted all of my edits, including simple formatting improvements), I may suggest for the future that you not characterize all of my reasons as "nonsense" without making a cogent case in support of this wide insult. The Behnam 22:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey Behnam, although it wasn't chic to talking about your notes above, but i have some old good reminiscents of you which however don't let me to not discussing with you, i was one of the first guys who leaved you a message in your talk page, as well as your early edits was about Mazandaran, Anyway, let's talking about this issue, that mirror site was a mistake, why you couldn't understand ? everyone can make a mistake, I have big doubt about your RS! you have special discribe of RS, Moreover you cann't understand persian to citing persian documents, So these edit wars are just wasting our time, and we never get consensus, I easily can find many OR edits of you, and many others based on non-RS, So please don't credit my notes as OR, ... I always praise the works of others about Mazandaran, but These such comments is a great inslut to Mazandaranis, how much do you know about us? did u ever saw mazandaran exactly? I am open to gathering more and more reliable info about this great land, but your comments are unfair, So, maybe stop me to discussing, though it's not surprise for me, unfortunately most of your recent iranian-related editions were kind of accusations, also you stated in Mazandarani people's talk page that i object with term persian, which is completely inaccurate, i also have persian background, but being proud to be a mazandarani rather than being any other ethnic, don't commit me to object with any other ethnic, This however made Shervin to thinking that i accused persians, Yeah, i respect, but you are looking to making disputes, as you did for anti-iranians and ..., I hope your further edits could help improving the Article, otherwise this is my last message for you

• Shaghaghi is looking a blog, how about this ?

• Mazandaran Governship is working, check it's googooli cache

• RS? Although i know everything is OR for you, [4], [5], [www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Scythian/saka_nomenclature.htm], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], Still too many references are available in english

• If you were understanding persian i was scaning the important persian documents from nli about my claims, also don't remove info from intro, it must be there to be visitable from Google Earth, Flicker and such other tools.

Respect, --Ali 02:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

If you have found better sources than the WP mirror, the blog, etc, then by all meants use them (with in-text citations) in the article next to the statement they support. The point is that I can remove anything that is not sourced, so from now on, all information must be sourced. If this has been a mistake (that you have made across a number of articles), I forgive you, but please, from now on, everything has to explicitly supported by a source, and this must be noted through in-text citations.

If you are truly sorry about the mirror and the other non-RS, you would not restore them, but you just did. I put the {{Fact}} tags as courtesy - I could have simply removed the text if I saw it fit, as policy allows for OR or illegitimately sourced information to be removed, as it really should never be in the article in the first place. The system is not set up such that you can put in content and expect others to fix the problems with its sourcing. BTW, we oughtn't source to the Google cache of a dead source (that's not really 'working', after all), and you should investigate before presenting 'cais-soas' as an RS. The Behnam 03:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Ali, everybody in all of the Middle East are considered White or Caucasians, mentioning it is trivia, and showing bad faith.

You know that they are not just linguistically connected, maybe you need to read the Iranian People again. --Pejman47 16:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hidden text

The post islamic history should be technically edited. there is a chunk of text which strangly remains hidden and is not displayed. Go to 'edit' and see the text which is not displayed in the normal version of the article--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus^(talk) 17:41, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Māzandarān Province → Mazandaran Province – per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:USEENGLISH

Takabeg (talk) 12:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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 Resolved This issue has been resolved, and I have therefore removed the tag, if not already done. No further action is necessary.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 00:02, 4 July 2015 (UTC)== where is Allameh Hasanzadeh Amoli ??? ==

Allameh Hasanzadeh Amoli is the biggest contemporaneous philosopher of Iran ,please add him to article

Rasul27 (talk) 09:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

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