Talk:Men's 400 metres world record progression

Eric Liddell's 1924 world record

[|Eric Liddell]'s time of 47.6 seconds at the 1924 Paris Olympics was ratified as a world record for the 400 metres (despite being slower than the existing record for 440 yards). Is there any reason why it isn't included in the record progression table (which I noticed was taken from an IAAF Statistics Handbook)? Admiral Glad (talk) 12:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Good question. I double-checked the 2011 updated handbook and Lidell's time is not included in the record progression. This may be one of those cases where the IAAF retrospectively decided that the record should not have stood, as it was slower than the existing record by Ted Meredith at 440 yards. The source on Lidell's page is the actual 1924 Paris official report. Perhaps this is one of those cases where a "record" is listed but later rescinded - like the 1987 World Championships which would have listed Ben Johnson's "world record" of 9.83 in the official report, but was later retrospectively rescinded. Obviously, the original report still lists the mark. I think it might be worth doing some research so we can include Lidell's time with an explanatory note. I don't think the mark should be included until there is some explanation as to why it was struck from the progression list. Canada Jack (talk) 15:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Five years later... the expanded IAAF world record progression lists in fact do list this mark. It was initially ratified but later rescinded. Accordingly, I will add the mark to the progression if I can figure out the coding... Canada Jack (talk) 18:15, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Milkha Singh

There has been a lot of activity lately trying to insert Milkah Singh into the record sequence. He was a credible 400 runner in the late 50's and early 60's, setting the Indian national record 45.73 when finishing 4th place at the 1960 Olympics. I just spent time cleaning that article up. His record stood for almost 40 years. He reportedly did a 45.8 HT in France before the 1960 Olympics. That said, the record was 45.4 in 1955, a time Singh never achieved. He does not belong in the progression. IAAF sourcing correctly does not include his name. Trackinfo (talk) 07:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Saw this on ANI and did some google searches. The IAAF reference doesn't work any more (at least, not for me) and what I could pull on their current page didn't have enough results to include him. There are quite a few results that mention the record but many of them use the same language to describe the race - a preliminary in France and many of them are covering a film about him. Other pieces from newspapers [1] do not mention the world record, something that I would have expected them to include if, in fact, a WR was set. There was a results from google books [2] that was published in India (no idea if this is a RS or not) and has a section on Singh with no mention of the world record. Add in the IAAF article above (plus any other article on the IAAF site that mention his name) not mentioning the WR and I think it's an urban legend that's grown wings. He's definitely had the national record until recently, but I don't think you can list him as a WR holder. His article does state that he had the WR in the 400m, might make sense for you to post on the talk page their with a summary of this and ask how to handle it. Regrettably for his supporters, when the governing bodies don't state that he as a WR, I don't think we can state it on Wikipedia. Ravensfire (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

There appears to be too many dubious articles that copy each other. Neither did he break the WR, not did he even break the Olympic record in the final at Rome. What he broke was the pre-Olympic record, that had already been bettered in the semifinal by Otis Davis. Tintin 02:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Tintin, that is a gross assumption of bad faith - retract it, please. - Sitush (talk) 06:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

On second reading, I think you are referring to newspaper articles, not Wikipedia articles - sorry about that. However, the edits to the Milkha Singh lead that reflect the digging around that has been done per this thread are simply appalling. We work on verifiability, not truth; there is no sourcing for the changes; and it breaches both WP:LEAD and WP:BLP. If someone can provide me with the IAAF source for the record progression etc then I'll fix all this mess - it might surprise you to know that I do know what I'm doing and am still working on fixing what was a dreadful article ;) - Sitush (talk) 07:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'd also appreciate the Olympic Record details, since you mention that Davis had already broken it before the final. - Sitush (talk) 07:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, for Olympic Record details, for a quick check, see Athletics at the 1960 Summer Olympics – Men's 400 metres. The standard reference is the official Olympic report available at http://www.la84.org/6oic/OfficialReports/1960/OR1960v2pt1.pdf and http://www.la84.org/6oic/OfficialReports/1960/OR1960v2pt2.pdf . At work, so I can't check/quote it myself at the moment, but if you can confirm it one way or the other, please do mention it here. Tintin 10:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Going into the Olympics, the world record was 45.4, by Lou Jones set in 1955. The Olympic Record was 45.9 /46.09 by George Rhoden and equalled by Herb McKenley 45.9 / 46.20 from the 1952 final. Otis Davis equalled the Olympic record in the quarterfinals 45.9 officially, 46.02 FAT. He improved it to 45.5 / 45.62 in the semifinal. And he of course set the world record 44.9 /45.07 in the final with Carl Kaufmann also getting credit for the hand timed world record with 44.9 / 45.08. Trackinfo (talk) 08:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Is sports-reference.com something akin to the bible of sports records? Don't the IAAF keep track (sic) on their website? Where does sports-reference.com get the info from? I'm not disagreeing here, by the way, I am questioning because if the Milkha Singh article is to be fixed properly then I need to ensure that it is absolutely solid regarding policy. For example, using one newspaper to rebut another newspaper doesn't really achieve much unless one or other subsequently retracts. There is a lot of hype surrounding Singh and there is a lot of misinformation out there but successful rebuttal requires work. There is, for example, an official government website (their press office, no less) that claims he ran barefoot, which is clearly rebutted due to video evidence and his donation to auctions and museums of running shoes that he claims to have worn at those Games. - Sitush (talk) 10:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Looked up the Olympic report myself (the first part). Page 76 says that the existing WR was 45.2 by LJ Jones set in 1956. Page 79 marks Davis's 45.5 in the SF as Olympic Record. In Page 80, only Davis & Kaufman's times are marked as new WR and OR - Spence's and Milkha's are not. This is as authentic as a source can get and disproves both the WR and OR claims (unless there is a line of argument that Singh set the WR before 1956 !). Tintin 11:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

@(edit conflict) No worries, Tintin's link to the official Olympic report will do the trick. Page 76-79 of Part 1 gives all the relevant details and says that the WR was set by Jones at Los Angeles in 1956. We're allowed to do basic calculations, so the rest will be easy and I'll sort it out later today. It's a shame that the photos are probably copyrighted! Thanks for your help, everyone. - Sitush (talk) 11:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to the record progression with the source being the IAAF, the sport's governing body. Go to page 597 of the text. Singh does not appear on the progression. [3] Canada Jack (talk) 14:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Canada for proving the information is out there. With sports-reference questioned as a RS, I've been frustrated looking. IAAF has really screwed up their website, either purging or hiding a lot of valuable information. Their internal search engine is virtually useless. Trackinfo (talk) 15:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I've never understood why they don't have this basic information readily available. During the World Championships they put up their handbook, which this is a link to, and I'm sure they will soon issue another one with all this info for the Moscow meets. But why this isn't normally and readily available I haven't a clue. Canada Jack (talk) 16:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 July 2013

|- | 45.8 | | Milkha Singh | India | France | 1958 |-

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayank.goya16 (talk • contribs) 16:00, July 19, 2013

Please read the above discussions. Singh did NOT set the world record. In fact, the IAAF source has Lou Jones setting the WR at 45.4 in 1955. That's faster than the time claimed for Singh set earlier than claimed for Singh. Ravensfire (talk) 21:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

and 45.2 in 1956. Tintin 03:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Everyone seems to be able to see the IAAF source except me! I can't see it using the Wayback link in the article, nor using the Webcitation link in the above thread. If it wasn't for the fact that both of those sites work for other citations elsewhere, I'd be thinking that the UK has suddenly begun blocking them. Obviously, the timing issue is already sorted per the above thread & sources do not have to be online but this is frustrating and if other people have the same difficulty then I can see this article needing protection against Singh additions for quite a while. - Sitush (talk) 07:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Glenn Davis

A note here on the inclusion of Glenn Davis' "WR" from c.1958, a mark which I removed. The IAAF, the governing body of track and field, does not list Davis as a past holder of the record in the 400m. They no longer keep marks for yard distances, but I believe he in fact did hold the WR for the 440y event, and records set in that event sometimes were ratified in the 400m, but his 45.7 time was inferior to the then-extant 400m record. If he in fact ran the 45.2 also listed with that time (I've seen it noted elsewhere), that would have equaled the WR if done before 1960, but for whatever reason, the IAAF did not ratify the record. Perhaps it was an estimate to what the 400m split time would have been, but wasn't actually timed, therefore not ratifiable. Canada Jack (talk) 20:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

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400m indoor

What about 400m indoor record progression? 213.149.61.229 (talk) 14:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

We already reference the 2015 IAAF record book which does include the 400m indoor world record progression, so the data is there. Thoughts on this from other contributors? I don't see the indoor progression on similar articles, but I also don't see any article specific to 400m indoor event. The main 400 metres article has separate sections for the World Championships and World Indoor Championships. Ravensfire (talk) 20:29, 30 April 2018 (UTC)