Talk:Miami/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Dialect

This needs to change from people outside of South Florida will notice the Miami accent to people outside of Miami or Miami-Dade county will notice the accent because the Miami accent is only spoken in Miami-Dade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.64.171.191 (talk) 22:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

IS THIS SERIOUS??? Who wrote that? It is POORLY WRITTEN and biased. To claim that (paraphrasing) "Miamians will often deny having an accent but those from elsewhere will notice it" is absurd within the context of an ENCYCLOPEDIA. In addition, an accent, no matter how heavy, is not the same as a dialect. The Miami accent does not deserve its own heading or section on the page, either. RIDICULOUS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.123.5 (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Wether it was poorly written on not (and I don't see how it's biased), I understand what he's saying. He means currently it says those outside SOUTH FLORIDA will notice the accent, but it should say those outside of MIAMI will notice the accent. That is true because the Miami accent is ONLY spoken in Miami, and Miami is not the only city/place in South Florida. Those that live in places in South Florida that is not Miami will notice the accent. I hope you get it now, and I too agree that it should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.10.226.71 (talk) 16:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

People from Miami

DJ Khaled is not born or raised in Miami or even lives there. That includes Ace Hood too. That needs to change A.S.A.P.

I agree with you. This is an encyclopedia, it should be as accurate as possible. On the section "Music" it should only have the people that are FROM Miami. DJ Khaled and Ace Hood are not born and/or raised in Miami. They don't even live there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.10.226.71 (talk) 16:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Seven

Do we really need to have seven separate templates at the bottom of this article? (Another one was added today). We now have {{Miami}}, {{Miami Neighborhoods}}, {{Dade County, Florida}}, {{South Florida metropolitan area}}, {{Florida}}, {{USLargestCities}}, and {{USLargestMetros}}. Any thoughts about jettisoning a couple of these? I have some ideas, but I'd rather see what others say before I throw them out there. Horologium (talk) 01:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

There does seem to be a trend of giving more and more space in articles to templates and infoboxes, to the point that it is interfering with formatting and reading the articles. I would say in this particular case that we emulate the way hierarchies of categories are handled, and eliminate the South Florida and Florida templates, as Miami and Miami-Dade County are included in both of them. -- Donald Albury 02:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought about suggesting the elimination of the neighborhoods template, since there is a link to Neighborhoods of Miami, Florida on the {{Miami}} template, as well as a link to the same article in the "See also" section. Horologium (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

That would work, as well. -- Donald Albury 15:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

As there was no discussion on this issue for the past two weeks, I went ahead and deleted all three of the templates discussed above. If reverted, a discussion here would be appreciated and appropriate. Horologium (talk) 04:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Good article reassessment

As Chicago strives to regain its WP:GA status, it is looking at other comparable municipalities to strive toward. Unfortunately, this is not what I believe it should be striving toward. The WP:LEAD is more than the max four paragraphs and large blocks of text are uncited. I do not consider this article any better than Chicago, which was duly delisted.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 14:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article.

I am now delisting this article based on support for speedy delisting at WP:GAR Please see the archived discussion for further information. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 03:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Capital

im trying to do a report on miami and i need to no if it is the capital of florida.can u tell me Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.255.77 (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

No, Tallahassee, Florida is. See the Florida article. -- Rai-me 21:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Everyone always thinks Miami is the capital of Florida, it's okay, it happens many times. --Comayagua99 (talk) 22:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

What's with the Greek pronunciation symbols?

Neither I, nor anyone I know is familiar with this: Miami (pronounced maɪˈæmi or maɪˈæmə) bizarre alien pronunciation guide. How is this of any use to the average person? Shouldn't we use the more classical dictionary way so at least a somewhat educated person could get something from it? As it stands now it may as well be an engraving on an alien spacecraft. - Marc Averette (talk) 22:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I think it's safe to say, most people know how to pronounce "Miami", it's a major global city. It's a bit unnecessary to include the pronunciation guide when it doesn't do just that; guide. --Comayagua99 (talk) 22:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I learnt this in a undergrad linguistics course and find it somewhat useful to have it included. Is Wikipedia only to have information useful for commoners? 220.101.4.57 (talk) 06:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

It's the International Phonetic Alphabet, which is great for those for whom English is not a first language, and for those who are more familiar with other writing systems (Cyrillic, Greek, Kanji, Han, etc). It's not as convenient to AmE speakers, but to everyone else, it's a good thing™. It is the preferred method of describing pronunciation, as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation). Horologium (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Most other US cities have this pronunciation guide, so I don't see why Miami shouldn't. As Horologium stated, there are many readers who will find this information useful. -- Rai-me 23:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that this was the 'English' Wikipedia. If someone has another native tongue, shouldn't they use one of the other Wikis? - Marc Averette (talk) 01:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily; they "should" use whatever Wikipedia they want, and for readers with another native tongue learning English, that may very well be the English Wikipedia. -- Rai-me 01:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Who keeps on including the "maɪˈæmə" pronunciation? That is an affectation used by no more than a few percent of the population--mostly non-natives trying to sound native. There is no natural accent which supports that pronunciation(contrary to some belief, it is not southern). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.68.177 (talk) 21:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Affectation or not, it is a recognized pronunciation, and is used by natives as well as transplants trying to sound native. Horologium (talk) 22:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Recognized by whom? How about including the "mi'aemi" Latin pronunciation, which is not only more popular, but has the advantage of legitimacy?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.68.177 (talk) 17:13, 2 May 2008

Many older (80+ years) people (including my grandparents native to the Florida Keys) pronounce it 'my a muh'. I (born & raised here) have always pronounced it 'my a me'. - Marc Averette (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Sister Cities

Murcia (Spain) is sister of Miami since 1994, I do not know why it is unknown by Miami's council. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.121.35.234 (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

You need to find a source for that statement, probably the Munipality of Murcia website, and add to the article with the source. For now, I have sourced the list better, and I have tagged the unsourced two cities that I found [1] --Enric Naval (talk) 01:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Languages

Miami is DOES NOT have largest Spanish-speaking population in the Western Hemisphere outside Latin America as the article claims. Los Angeles with a population of over 4 million has far more spanish speaking residents than Miami. And if you follow the citation used for that statement you will see that it does not say anything about Miami having the "largest Spanish-speaking population in the Western Hemisphere outside Latin America" like the article claims. The reference does not say anything like that but just states people speak spanish in Miami. Somebody needs to correct this. 66.105.33.6 (talk) 22:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Quoting directly from the cited source: Miami has the largest number of Spanish speakers in the western hemisphere outside Latin America. (First paragraph, fourth sentence.) If you can find a citation that contradicts that, please provide it. Horologium (talk) 23:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You will find that Spain is in the Western Hemisphere - look on any map and 85% of it is west of the Prime Meridian. Spain has a population of 45 million. The claim that Miami (or Los Angeles) has the "the largest Spanish speaking population in the Western Hemisphere outside Latin America" is inaccurate. I realise it is a small point but it goes to the heart of wikipedia being a factual and reliable database that can be relied upon for its integrity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.106.54.79 (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Your argument appears to be an "unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position", as defined in the policy at Wikipedia:No original research. As Horologium said before, find a reliable resource for your position. BTW, I've always understood "Western Hemisphere" to be as defined here. -- Donald Albury 23:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia itself discusses the 'Western Hemisphere'. I suppose the definition depends on which view you prefer; a strict or colloquial interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.21.197 (talk) 23:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The point is that we have a reliable source for the statement. Unless you can cite a reliable source that says otherwise, and not just your own analysis, the statement should stand in the article. As the policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." -- Donald Albury 11:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Crime in Miami

I have read and heard a lot about Miami's crime rates. From what I have learned, Miami's crime rates, particularly the murder rates today are nowhere near as high as they were in the early 1980s (the height of what is now known as the "Miami Vice" decade.) For example, in 1982, Miami reported 600 murders per year, which would constitute a murder rate of a technically unreal 172.9 per 100,000 people (in 1984, Miami was officially dubbed "America's murder capital" by the FBI.) Miami's murder rate in 2006; about 19.5 per 100,000 people. Darthvader1 (talk) 03:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Crime

Thye crime information that was shown was way off. Miami doesnt even rank in the top 25 anymore and the metro area is not second. Its all old information.JulianM09 (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

According to CQ Press 2008: Crime rankings Miami proper was the 35th most dangerous, Miami Beach was the 50th, as an entire metro area “Miami-Dade metropolitan area” had the 7th highest crime rate among metropolitan area’s.

The murder rate for the city is above average, having a murder rate of 19.3 per 100,000 people, but it is allot higher throughout other areas of the south. For instance; Richmond, Virginia (27.0), Norfolk Virginia (21.1), North Charleston, SC (31.9), Birmingham (37.8), Atlanta (25.9), Memphis (21.6), Little Rock Arkansas (27.6). Htgrgwwew (talk) 02:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Miami is now the 4th largest Urban area in the U.S. !

I'm not sure how to state this in the opening paragraph with the proper reference below, so could somebody please do the honors of placing it there? Both of these links below are the populations lists that the NYC page uses, and they both say that Miami is number four. I think that the Urban Agglomeration page is more impressive looking. If somebody smart can update the page properly, I'd appreciate it! Thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_agglomerations_by_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_by_population —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miamiomar (talk • contribs) 02:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The Financial Capital of the Americas

This doesn't make sense to me at all. I would think that this would be New York City. Any sources saying otherwise? 98.212.165.97 (talk) 16:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I took a look at that. A Google search for "Financial Capital of the Americas" Miami -wikipedia returned only 19 hits, none of which were reliable sources, except for an article from the Miami Herald, in which the reporter was quoting a Miami business leader (which isn't reliable either). The other hits were PR releases, advertisements, or discussion forums. I removed that statement from the article, since it isn't really crucial to the sentence it was in, and appears to be PR fluff. Horologium (talk) 17:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Three Official Languages?

Does anyone have a source for Miami having three official languages of English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole? I notice in the government websites and other Miami sites that a lot of things are translated into those three languages, but have they really been designated as official or is it just a practice? I've just never heard of a city having an official language, but it'd be nice to provide a source so that we can take the fact tag off. Kman543210 (talk) 00:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Move and revert

This page was moved to [[Miami]] yesterday without discussion, in contravention of the convention established at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)#United States. I have reverted it back to [[Miami, Florida]], and any further discussion to move it should take place at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Typing in Miami will redirect to this article, so it doesn't impact searchability. Horologium (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Horologium! Once again, sorry you got caught in friendly fire from my gun yesterday, so to speak. -- JeffBillman (talk) 19:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Urbanized Area

(copied from discussion at Talk:Miami)

I think the references I carefully added a while back have been bunged up good, but there is a difference between Metropolitan Statistical Area and Urbanized Area as defined by the Census Bureau. Miami was the fourth most populous Urbanized Area in the U.S. in 2000, after N.Y., L.A. and Chicago. See the table at [2]. -- Donald Albury 23:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, the ref prior to when I changed it to the metro area was to a university and use to say fifth for the longest time, until some IP user changed it to forth. So I looked up the table for metro population, changed it to the 7th largest and added a ref. _{El Greco}^(talk) 00:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the reference Donald Albury provided, it appears that Miami is the fifth largest urban area, after New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Philadelphia. Dallas and Houston, which have larger metro populations, have smaller urban populations than Miami. I have updated the article accordingly. Horologium (talk) 03:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe the 4th was based on a site that has a 2007 census *estimate*. I'm not sure where it was, I supposed we could look back in the history to find it. Also there is this list on Wikipedia: World's largest urban agglomerations, which shows the Miami area being the 4th largest in the U.S. Someone may have likely confused urban *agglomeration* with urban *area*. - Marc Averette (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The agglomerations thing is referenced from a UN list; we were using that here until somebody pulled in the Census Bureau list (which is the same data that is available on the Texas A&M University site). I feel more comfortable using the Census Bureau data, which is consistent across all states and uses data that is widely available, even if it does drop the area down from fourth to fifth. (grin) Horologium (talk) 18:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Newer photo keeps getting reverted

Can someone explain to me why a newer photo I am putting of the skyline is continuously being reverted for one that's over 2 years old? I though the article for Miami should contain more recent photos. There is another article for history of Miami for old photos - 67.191.12.203 (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

You would do much better to propose such changes on the talk pages, and wait to see what consensus develops. In the meantime, please stop the personal attacks on other editors or you will continue to be reverted and blocked as a disruptive editor. -- Donald Albury 16:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

Why does Miami redirect to Miami, Florida? The title could just be Miami, as we have a seperate disambiguation page. :S --Jza84 |  Talk  19:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Because of this naming convention. -- Donald Albury 19:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. I couldn't find anything on the talk page, nor in the archive. Seems daft to me though, IMHO. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  22:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The last time it was tested, consensus was to keep the current name. -- Donald Albury 22:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Global city?

The Global city article has Miami as a "world city," which is sort of second tier, not a "global city." But is that really worth mentioning in the first line? --AW (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

You know people on this site like to over-hype their cities/states/countries/agendas by any means. This site often let's them get away with it too. Miami's fame precedes the power of the city. The skyline is mainly hotels and other living places - not office building where business is conducted. I hardly think Miami has the next best skyline after Chicago. Hell, even Los Angeles, whose skyline is not the most powerful to me is more powerful than Miami's. So is Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Philly and so on. Wiki needs to help end the madness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.93.188 (talk) 03:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

World's fifty most-populated urban areas

Miami? more than San Francisco? and where is Madrid, bigger tan Miami? --84.120.9.13 (talk) 02:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

There is currently a proposal on the table to amend the Wikipedia naming conventions for US cities to follow the AP Stylebook's suggested names. This would effectively move a number of US city articles currently on the list, so Miami, Florida would be moved to Miami. To comment on this discussion, please go here. Dr. Cash (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The result of the debate was move to Miami. Cheers, Rai•me 17:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Crime

The information about Miami's old days of crime should also include information on how crime has lowered the last decade and as recently as last month there was no murder for the the first time in 42 years.--JulianM09 (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree on that, good point. Sbrown146 (talk) 02:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Photo montage?

The other big cities are all putting photo montages in the infobox: Check out Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City. Miami should have it too. What landmarks to include? Separate photos of downtown & midtown? Vizcaya? Freedom Tower? B of A building lit pink? Biscayne Bay? Virginia Key Beach? Any other ideas? - Marc Averette (talk) 21:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I've never heard this pronunciation before: /maɪˈæmə/. I would like to see a source for it.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 23:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Two links--Merriam-Webster and Dictionary.com, which includes both Random House and American Heritage dictionary listings. All three note the -uh pronunciation, which is uncommon but still valid. That pronunciation is most commonly heard among elderly Anglophones, but that statement is OR, and can't be cited. I am going to revert the dubious tag, because there are three separate citations available online, and likely dozens more in paper dictionaries/atlases/gazeteers/encyclopedias. Horologium (talk) 01:27, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, I keep forgetting that the online dictionaries often do have pronunciations for common geographical names. Should have checked myself. Thanks!--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 20:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Miami - languages

Please change "Miami has the largest Spanish-speaking population in the Western Hemisphere outside Latin America.[54]" to:

...highest PERCENTAGE of Spanish speakers...

Clearly bigger cities like NY, LA and Chicago have far, far more Spanish speakers than Miami. In LA, 41.7% of a population of 3,694,820 speak Spanish (according to the LA wiki); this would be over 1.5 million speakers of Spanish, 4 times the entire population of Miami.

Thanks

C.A.Buenavista (talk) 16:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The source most likely refers to the Miami Metro area, which has about 5 million. - Marc Averette (talk) 04:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

However it's parsed, the source has some problems. If it's metro area, then it belongs at South Florida metropolitan area. Problem is, the source doesn't say that: It says Miami, and it says number. Further muddying the waters is that the source doesn't specify whether that refers to the number of Spanish speakers, or the number of Spanish-only speakers. I believe the source is flawed, which is why I added the disputed tag. -- JeffBillman (talk) 15:39, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Miami's population history

Citations are needed for the city figures prior to 1900. The city was first incorporated as a municipality in 1896 and according to the provided source (which is the U.S. Census Bureau), the city's first census was in 1900. --Moreau36 (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

wrong data

Miami HAS recorded 100F in July 1942. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.24.46.188 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

music

where ur says about rappers, Flo Rida should be included —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.155.69 (talk) 18:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

HIGHEST ELEVATION

The website being linked as the reference for the highest elevation is some random website with incorrect information. Miami-Dade County's highest natural elevation is 19 feet above sea level, outside of the city proper. The City of Miami's natural elevation, then, would be probably 15-16 feet. DEFINITELY NOT FORTY. And if non-natural elevations are being used as the source for this information (such as Mount Trashmore), then they are still not within the City of Miami and should not be included. 76.109.123.5 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)somepeople

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). --AW (talk) 20:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Accuracy of Ranking

How accurate is the article reporting Miami ranks third in Skysrapers?--Redspork02 (talk) 03:05, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

If the site is determined to be a reliable source, then its rankings can be included (we don't judge accuracy, we judge reliability). I do not know the cited source, and I cannot judge whether it is a reliable source. I will note that the site describes an objective procedure for assigning the ranks. If you are aware of a reliable source that provides a substantially different ranking, then that can be cited as well. If it uses a different methodology, then the article should explain that the rankings are based on different criteria. -- Donald Albury 15:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

"In 2008, Miami was ranked as "America's Cleanest City" according to Forbes Magazine for its year-round good air quality, vast green spaces, clean drinking water, clean streets and city-wide recycling programs.[12] In 2008, Miami was also ranked the 3rd-richest city in the United States and the world's 22nd-richest city in a UBS study.[13]"

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2004, Miami had the third highest incidence of family incomes below the federal poverty line in the United States, making it the third poorest city in the USA, behind only Detroit, Michigan (ranked #1) and El Paso, Texas (ranked #2.) Miami is also one of the very few cities where its local government went bankrupt, in 2001.[40]"

This is very contradictory. In reality, Miami is probably the poorest city I've ever lived in. Someone should fix this.

Not contradictory. A lot can change in 4 years. The 50 some skyscraper condos they've built in the last few years are apparently full of rich people.

Not to mention that the sources could have used vastly different metrics for determining wealth. For example, the UBS study may have been based on total wealth, whereas the 2004 Census Bureau may have assigned its rating based on the number of residents below the poverty line. Were this to be the case, there would be no contradiction, but instead a display of the disparity between the rich and poor in the city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1kain3 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Nicknames

MIA, The Bottom, The 305. (I don't hear Magic City much, but i believe it is a correct nickname) Basketballer1042 (talk) 04:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Find reliable sources that use the term, and they can be added to the article. Horologium (talk) 11:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are right about those nicknames but I thought they are going to be changed because they still have not fixed the music section as the above person has noted a long time ago. And yes M.I.A. or MIA how ever you want to put it, The Bottom, 305 or The 305 are also nicknames but there is also The Cocaine Capital, Land of the Haze, 3rd World Country, Party City, Sexiest Place on Earth, Money Is A Major Issue, Capital of Latin America ,Gateway to the Americas, Little Cuba, The Fifth Borough, Rock Bottom, M-I-Ya-Yo, and Capital of the Americas but some of them might just be used at a rare occurence, even though Capital of the Americas, Capital of Latin America, and Gateway to the Americans sound like nicknames Miami would have. By the way The Magic City is still used by us Miamians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.232.249.45 (talk) 09:24, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

One of the nicknames I have seen quite a bit in the local paper is "The Gateway to the Americas." This is something the local politicians are rather fond of saying, particularly when talking about trade deals. http://www.miami-airport.com/html/archieved_press_release_185.html (page 7) 1kain3 (talk) 18:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Accuracy of the Music section

DJ Khaled and Ace Hood should not be listed under the Music section because they're not from Miami. They are not born, or raised, or currently living in Miami. Having DJ Khaled under there is acceptable to a point because he works on 99 Jamz, but Ace Hood is unacceptable. Only people from Miami should be listed like, Trick Daddy, Trina, Pitbull, and Luke. Please change this because this is an encyclopedia and should be as accurate as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.43.118.128 (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Why the hell wont they fix it!? Its not hard at all to correct and what thats person is saying is fact. Change it!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.232.37.238 (talk) 18:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I think there is a broader problem with that sentence. What does it mean that an artist is "out of" Miami? --Scaletail (talk) 15:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think I can answer that question for the original poster. An artist "out of" Miami means somebody that is not born in Miami, raised in Miami, or living in Miami. Ace Hood is not born in Miami, or raised in Miami, or lives in Miami. I really have no idea why he was ever listed in the music section, it makes absolutely no sense. Also, just for verification purposes, I live in Miami and are heavily involved in all the music business that takes place here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.41.102 (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Crime Rate Table

The Crime rate table needs to be corrected. The numbers shown are total numbers, not per 100,000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.3.235.203 (talk) 16:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I removed the table, pending some discussion. The IP editor above is correct. The problem with the crime table is that it is set up to provide crime rates (crimes per 100,000 people), not crime numbers (raw data). This is something that is coded into that template. The FBI's Crime in the United States charts (part of the UCR, Unified Crime Reports) only report numbers of crimes, not crime rates. As a population figure is included for each year's report, we can easily calculate crime rates, but there is a risk of being accused of synthesis. I'd like to see if we can come up with a (policy-based) consensus on how to deal with the crime figures. FWIW, the FBI's own charts might be a better source than the charts from the Sun Sentinel, which might end up disappearing behind a pay firewall. The FBI data for cities in Florida is here. Horologium (talk) 15:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Another table does give per 100,000 inhabitant numbers, but only for the metropolitan area. --Scaletail (talk) 15:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Richest city in the United States

The quote in the intro reads:

"In 2008, Miami was also ranked the 3rd-richest city in the United States and the world's 22nd-richest city in a UBS study"

To start out, there has been an update for 2009, and Miami is now ranked #1 U.S. and #5 in the world.

Using this new ranking, well, Miami is clearly not the richest city in the United States (not in the top 100). It's not the richest metro area (ranked 132 out of 280). It's not the richest large city. It's not sitauated in the richest county in the U.S. (not ranked in any lists back to 2000). We know this for a fact.

You can't just have a random study proclaim this and have it become fact. Look at the study they just picked cities at random - 73 in the world to be exact. Other large metro areas conspicuously missing from the list are Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Atlanta, Washington D.C. and Boston. San Francisco is missing too. I'm pretty sure all of these cities have higher household, family, and per capita incomes than Miami. I'm positive. And for metro areas, I find it difficult to believe that Washington, D.C., Boston, and San Francisco don't have significantly higher incomes than Miami.

Look at the methodology. It mentions purchasing power. I have a hard time believing that Miami beats out Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston in this regard.

I don't think you can even salvage the statement. It was a random survey. You could say "richest ... in a random survey" but what good would that be? Ufwuct (talk) 01:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed "In 2008, Miami was also ranked the third-richest city in the United States and the world's twenty second-richest city in a UBS study.". Ufwuct (talk) 02:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• I will be restoring it, but rewording it to make clear that there were only 73 cities in the list, only four of which were in the US. And a UBS survey is not "some random survey"; UBS is an enormous and extraordinarily influential financial services company, and their rankings are not something thrown together by an anonymous Mountain Dew-fueled college student. In any case, the study covered only four US cities, and New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are all far more expensive than Miami, which is why Miami comes out on top. (Remember that Florida has no personal income tax, not to mention lower housing and transportation costs; it is possible to get around Miami without use of toll roads, and the state gas tax is not breathtakingly high.) As to Houston, Atlanta, and Dallas being lower cost cities, that is possibly true, but they were not included in the survey. (I suspect that the four cities chosen were selected because of their prominence in the international financial markets.) There's nothing dubious about it. Horologium (talk) 02:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• OK, well setting aside whether or not UBS's claims about Miami's wealth are accurate (I too found it very surprising, considering that I've been to Miami many times and it certainly doesn't seem that rich to me), shouldn't this paragraph, which is apparently out of date and contradictory, be removed?

  According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2004, Miami had the third highest incidence of family incomes below the federal poverty line in the United States, making it the third poorest city in the USA, behind only Detroit, Michigan (ranked #1) and El Paso, Texas (ranked #2.) Miami is also one of the very few cities where its local government went bankrupt, in 2001.[41]

Either Miami is the richest city in the USA, or it's the third poorest. Can't be both.--Antodav2007 (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I see now that this contradiction has already been somewhat addressed above in another section. Point taken, but still, if the economy of Miami has changed so drastically over the last decade, the economics section should make note of that, in case someone skips over the mention of Miami's wealth in the introduction. In fact, now that I think about it, that really doesn't need to be in the introduction anyway. I will move it to the economy section, kill two birds with one stone.--Antodav2007 (talk) 15:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no Neighborhood map

there needs to be a Neighborhood map i live in Akron ,Ohio and theres neighborhood map for my city. why no map for miami showing the neighborhoods? i also Noticed that theres a map of Chicago illinois Neighborhoods on its page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.107.144 (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

There is an entire article about the neighborhoods of Miami, entitled Neighborhoods of Miami, and that article has a map. That article is linked from this article in the section entitled "neighborhoods". Horologium (talk) 03:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

ok that covers Miami well but what about the Neighborhood map of Brooklyn, Newyork ,Newyork? casue i keep finding neighborhoods of brooklyn in my searches but no map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.107.144 (talk) 05:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Bring that issue up on their respective pages. This talkpage is for dealing with issues relating to this article. Digirami (talk) 06:36, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Digirami is right, but again, if you read the article on Brooklyn, the "neighborhoods" section contains a link to List of Brooklyn neighborhoods, which has a nice map. Horologium (talk) 11:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Cuba

This section doesn't speak in depth about the disastrous Cuban immigration that destroyed a once fine city.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.13.174 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably because Cuban immigration is what helped to build Miami, not destroy it. Your own personal prejudice has no place in the article, or anywhere else on Wikipedia.--Antodav2007 (talk) 15:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

<Sigh> In regards to your reply, Cubans do contribute to the culture of the city, however stating that Miami exists in greater part to Cubans is only adding to an urban myth and undermines other Latin American peoples/sub-groups. After all, Cubans only account for one third of the population and of those numbers, far less are counted as part of the US work force; most of them living on government/taxpayer monies. Perhaps someone would like to include that into the project without diverting from the essence of the article. It is a legitimate point in regards to demographics and economy. --Neon Sky (talk) 23:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

What kind of response is this, Neon Sky? There was nothing Antodav2007 said that added to "an urban myth" while you turn around and add your own "most of them living on government/taxpayer monies." This has no place on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.171.150.84 (talk) 19:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Miami Private Schools

Palmer Trinity School was not included in this article

The sentence in question should be rephrased as follows:

Some of the most well-known non-denominational private schools in Miami are Ransom Everglades, *Palmer Trinity School*, Gulliver Preparatory School, and Miami Country Day School, which are traditionally known as some of the country's best schools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.77.156 (talk) 06:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Can someone fix the it's its error in the second paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.78.185 (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Bicycling

We should mention that critical mass is growing in popularity in Miami and averages about 200 people in attendance every month. Also, Bike Miami is down for now although it might be back in late Spring or early Summer. The memorial ride for Cristophe Le Canne on January 24, 2010 was also pretty significant. Over 2,000 riders showed up in remembrance of the cyclist who was struck and killed on January 17 by a drunk driver in Key Biscayne. Since his death, many bicyclists are doing what they can to garner further support from political representatives to improve bicycling conditions in Miami. It should be noted that Miami is ranked one of the least bike friendly cities in the US).

I'm new to updating wiki pages so you can email me for more information and I can provide sources for my information. jmonsw21@yahoo.com

71.206.66.89 (talk) 04:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Crime Rate

I miss the crime section in this article. Wasnt Miami the capitle of mafia wars in the 70ties?

My spanish isn't the best but maybe it is good for citation:

• http://www.cronicaviva.com.pe/content/view/111420/271/

or something else:

• http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1997-02-27/news/glorious-notorious/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.115.168.235 (talk) 22:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Climate - sunshine hours

Data on the sunshine hours (3,154) are absurd - about and over 3,000 sunshine hours is data for climate of semi-desert and desert (or subtropical semi-desert), not tropical with 107 precipitation days and 1,420 mm of precipitation. Yes, exist one a source - Hong Kong Observatory, but is it a reliable source? or there was no mistake? Are there other sources (international agencies and National Weather Service) for this data? Subtropical-man (talk) 17:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The sunshine data comes from HKO, which I believe derives its data from all the government sites in the world, excepting Hong Kong, of course. The amount, 3154 hours, is entirely plausible if you consider that rainfall probably comes in downpours in Miami, because of its tropical climate. Another site (Arizona State University) nearly completely verifies the HKO data; 73% of available sunshine. Assume that the South Pole in a hypothetical year receives 100% of its sunshine; given that half of the year is dark, 365.25 days * 12 hr / day ~ 4383 hours is the maximum sunshine amount for anywhere on the earth, because the average daily possible sunshine amount is the same, or nearly so, everywhere on the planet, but obviously with different amplitudes. Thus .73 * 4383 hr ~ 3200 hr.

NWS sometimes provides sunshine data, but this is difficult to find and its data often shows up on other sites, often in percentages, which are also useful but difficult to calculate for each month due to the required integration of the sunshine-versus-day of the year function. ---华钢琴49 (TALK) 04:30, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

When was Miami Founded

Miami was the County Seat of Dade as far back as 1844. I know there is some pride by some in deeming Miami as having been 'founded' by a woman. However, this article states that Miami was 'founded' by a woman (Ms. Julia Tuttle) in 1896. Yet it had already been county seat (before 1896). How could it be the county seat yet not yet "founded" as a town? unless this article should read more accurately, Miami was only "incorporated" in 1896 by Ms. Tuttle (not founded). Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahiim03 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the source is for saying the county seat was moved to Miami in 1844, or what that even means. Sometime after the Army left Fort Dallas in the early 1840s, land along the Miami River came into the hands of William English, who started a plantation and planned a city (complete with plantations worked by slaves). According to Helen Muir (Miami, USA, (1953) p. 26), "There is indication that he actually platted the land on the south bank of the narrow Miami." English, however, left for the California gold rush, and died there. The Army re-occupied Fort Dallas on English's abandoned plantation during the Third Seminole War, until 1858. To quote Muir again (p. 27), "During the War Between the States, abandoned Fort Dallas became the refuge of a company of dubious characters including deserters from both the Confederate and Union troops, Union spies, and blockade runners." Muir also notes that after the Civil War there were only 75 registered voters in Dade County, which included the eastern half of the state between the St. Lucie River and Jewfish Creek. In the election of 1876 there were three precincts in Dade County, Michael Zahr's house somewhere on Biscayne Bay, Hypoluxo and the Jupiter Lighthouse. There were at that time people living at various places along the northern part of Biscayne Bay, particularly in what became Coconut Grove and in the "Biscayne Country" north of the present City of Miami. In 1888 the county seat was moved from Miami (I'm not clear where the courthouse was actually located) to Juno, and wasn't moved back until 1898. A stage line started between Lake Worth and Lemon City in 1890. Note that the stage did not go to 'Miami', but stopped at Lemon City. All this time the land on the north side of the Miami River had been held by the Biscayne Bay Company. Julia Tuttle bought the land around 1890. Again from Muir (p. 49), "Like English, when she [Tuttle] looked at the wilderness along the mangrove-lined Miami River she saw a thriving city." As Tuttle was able to persuade Flagler to bring his railroad to the Miami River and build a city on the land she gave him, I think it is fair to say that Tuttle "founded" Miami. When Flagler agreed to extend his railroad to Miami, what is now downtown Miami was the old Fort Dallas surrounded by undeveloped land. Muir also notes that Tuttle was called "the mother of Miami".(p. 55)

Julia Tuttle did not "incorporate" Miami. Incorporation required an act of the state legislature and a vote by the registered voters of the place to be incorporated. As a women, Tuttle could not have voted in the incorporation referendum. I'm not even sure she lived within the original city limits. -- Donald Albury 12:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Prior to the establishment of the County Courthouse in downtown Miami, the court would have been wherever the judge was. Not having a building, and with an incredibly large county (which included present day Broward and Palm Beach), he traveled a circuit. --Scaletail (talk) 12:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Circuit judges held court at specified places (when Dade County was established in 1836, the county seat was at Indian Key, but court was to be held once a year at Key Biscayne), and the records were stored somewhere. There was considerable drama involved in the removal of the records from the Miami area to Juno in 1888 (involving guns, threats and a night-time raid to seize the records). -- Donald Albury 13:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Found a partial answer here. It seems that in the 1880s the Dade County "courthouse" consisted of a rented room at Fort Dallas. This still doesn't cover where the "courthouse" was during the 1840s thru the 1870s. -- Donald Albury 15:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

According to this article (start at page 12), Monroe County had judicial authority over Dade from 1841 - 1844, then again by 1850. By 1886, the court is back in Dade's hand, though it's unclear if that happened before or if that was the first time court was again held in Miami. --Scaletail (talk) 20:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting! I notice that when the state moved the county seat to Miami, they specified the south side of the river (where English apparently planned his city/town/village). I'm not surprised that Dade County became more or less disfunctional after Indian Key was abandoned. There was no other point of concentration of population for a while. It looks like county offices were filled only sporadically until the 1870s. There are a couple of reference books at the local library that may have more information. I may get a chance to look at them tomorrow. -- Donald Albury 03:04, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

[outdented] Today I looked at Miami and Dade County, Florida: Its Settlement, Progress and Achievement, by E. V. Blackman, 1921, Washington, D.C.: Victor Rainbolt (the copy I consulted was a 1977 reprint). The author arrived in Miami in 1896, and states that he knew and consulted with Julia Tuttle on a number of occasions prior to her death in 1898.

Some details: the settlement that became Miami was known as Fort Dallas prior to 1896; the Fort Dallas post office was established in 1850; in 1870 Julia Tuttle purchased the Biscayne Bay Company holdings (including Fort Dallas) on the north side of the Miami River, the Brickells purchased the Lewis grant on the south side the same year, Brickells operated an Indian trading post at the mouth of the river; Ralph Munroe told of a county commission meeting at Fort Dallas in 1877 where most of the spectators wore holstered revolvers; first term of Circuit Court (which covered multiple counties) was held in Miami in 1886 - judge and lawyers traveled from Indian River (picking up the only lawyer in Palm Beach on the way) and lived while in Miami on a chartered schooner (no suitable local accommodations); first teacher in county paid by state, taught in private homes, moving to new home each week, first school houses at Juno, Lemon City and Coconut Grove, first public school in Miami opened 1897; most buildings at Fort Dallas burned in 1870 or 1871, Tuttles lived in only surviving wood house; first buildings in Miami built in 1896; first hard surface roads from Miami built to Buena Vista and Coconut Grove after railroad reached Miami.

I don't have a source that explicitly says so, but it looks like the settlement of Fort Dallas consisted primarily of homesteaders living on their farms in the area. While "Miami" was a name for the area near the mouth of the Miami River in the mid 19th century, during the second half of the 19th century the post office for the area was called "Fort Dallas". Buena Vista (and Lemon City to its north) and Coconut Grove were separate communities, with Coconut Grove having its own post office, first in 1873, but closing the next year, and again from 1884. So, I would argue that the City of Miami was founded in 1896, when the railroad arrived. Flagler extended his railroad to that spot at that time because of the advocacy of, and gift of land from, Julia Tuttle. I think that gives her a better right than anyone else to be called the founder of Miami. -- Donald Albury 20:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I guess it really depends on semantics and your definition of the word 'founded'. Found: "to establish or originate by providing an endowment...to plan and begin the building of a town or colony". (The Oxford American College Dictionary). Not to discredit Ms. Tuttle's contribution, but I think it more accurate to say Miami was actually 'founded' with Fort Dallas and William English's 'chartering' the 'village of Miami', long before Julia Tuttle arrived on the scene. Though it is an established fact that she had a part in impressing Flagler to bring the railroad here thus helping to get it incorporated. Also (maybe this is just my perception) but it seems you imply that the history of "slavery and plantations" is something to be ashamed of or 'cloud over'. Embracing America's racial slavery past is mature and it will always remain a valid part of this society's past and may as well be embraced as a vivid part of history, the indignities of which helped propel us forward as a culture. I am noticing a disturbing tendency to shy away from, repel or neglect historic jewels (ie. Chinsegut Hill Manor House, Fort Dallas) due to their 'slavery past'. I think we should refrain from 'skimming'over Fort Dallas and Miami's history prior to 1896 simply because 'racial slavery' might have been involved.Rahiim03 (talk) 14:54, 19 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.130.223.131 (talk) 14:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand how you can read anything about my desiring to 'cloud over' the history of slavery in what I posted. Please be careful about attributing views to me without foundation. Oh, by the way, what does a house in Hernando County have to do with this discussion?

The simple fact is that while there were episodes through most of the 19th century of people settling in the area that became Miami, there was no city, town or even village known as Miami prior to 1896, not was there any city, town or village of any name before 1896 where Miami was laid out, developed and incorporated. William English planned a 'city' called "Miami" in the 1840s, and may have sold a few lots, but his intended 'city' was somewhere south of the Miami River, there is no evidence he ever registered a plat subdividing his land, and there is no evidence anyone took up residence in his 'city'. English's 'city' of Miami did not proceed as far as the town of Key Biscayne did in the 1830s (see Key Biscayne#War with the Seminoles). Both places were ideas ahead of their times, and neither had anything to do with the municipalities of the same name but different locations founded later.

Prior to 1896 Julia Tuttle and her family were living at Fort Dallas and the Brickells were living on the south side of the mouth of the Miami River, where they operated a trading post frequented by Seminoles who came the down the Miami River in canoes. There were some people living in Buena Vista, and Blackman mentions a homesteader in Allapattah. Blackman also mentions that there were no real roads in Dade County south of Lemon City before 1896, just trails leading to homesteaders' farms. That appears to be it for the area between Lemon City and Coconut Grove in the mid 1890s. So, I still say that means that Miami was founded in 1896. -- Donald Albury 17:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

According to the evidence, clearly Julia Tuttle did not found Miami. And the statement "Miami holds the distinction of being the only major city in the United States founded by a woman, Julia Tuttle", is clearly misinformation. When I submitted this, I simply felt it a matter that needs to be addressed and had no idea it would elicit what appears to be such combative response. Mr. Albury, if you are keeping with 'scholarly' principles, your exhibited passion in keeping articles as they are even in light of contradicting evidence is in itself quite shocking. Also your statement, (the "Tuttles lived in only surviving wood house; first buildings in Miami built in 1896")--does not account for the Wagner Homestead. By the way, it was you who brought up the topic of slavery in the second sentence of your response above regarding Fort Dallas, "(complete with plantations worked by slaves)", not me. I was merely speaking about my perception of your attitude to discount slavery (not a house in Hernando County). Regarding the so-called 'founding' of this city by Ms. Tuttle, you willingly admit above that "William English planned a 'city' called "Miami" in the 1840s, and may have sold a few lots, but his intended 'city' was somewhere south of the Miami River, there is no evidence he ever registered a plat subdividing his land, and there is no evidence anyone took up residence in his 'city'", I will simply refer to the definition of 'found', which is "to plan and begin the building of a town or colony". (The Oxford American College Dictionary). "registering or selling a plot" is clearly not listed as a requirement to 'found' a place according to the standard definition of the word 'found' in dictionaries.Rahiim03 (talk) 13:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

From the City of Miami's website:

“ In 1891, a plucky widow named Julia Tuttle moved to Florida and purchased 640 acres of land on the north bank of the Miami River. Tuttle later talked wealthy railroad builder Henry Flagler into extending his railroad into Miami, building a luxury hotel and laying out a new town. These developments resulted in the birth of a new city. The City of Miami was incorporated on July 28, 1896. source ”

It appears that the city credits Julia Tuttle as well, not just Wikipedia. An additional resource is this article, from Tequesta, the journal of the Historical Association of Southern Florida. While it doesn't specifically identify Julia Tuttle as the founder of Miami, it makes her pivotal role clear, and further notes that the area was known as the "Biscayne Bay Country" prior to the founding of the city, so it's pretty clear that English's name didn't stick. Further, as Donald Albury notes, the abandoned Miami of the mid-19th century was to be located south of the river, in or near the tract owned by the Brickell family. Tuttle's Miami was platted north of the river, although the city limits extended south of the river. Horologium (talk) 15:44, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

To Rahiim03: We clearly disagree about the evidence for when Miami was founded. You made a change to the article and I reverted it. That means the change you propose will require a consensus on this discussion page to implement it. If you wish to pursue a resolution on this issue, you can go to Wikipedia:Third opinion (although technically Horologium has offered a third opinion, you can seek additional input). A step beyond that would be to open a Wikipedia:Request for comments on the topic. In either case, you might want to post notice of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Miami. -- Donald Albury 22:04, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

To get back to the original question Rahiim asked, Miami was the county seat for a time. The article I linked to above mentioned that the area sort of lost its name, and was known as Fort Dallas for a time. The county seat of Dade moved around; there were few (if any) incorporated municipalities in the county. In order to be incorporated, a city needed at least 300 residents, a critical mass the area lacked until Tuttle convinced Flagler to extend the FEC Railway to the Miami River. While there were a handful of residents along the river until then, the place that had been known as Fort Dallas once again became Miami with the incorporation of the city in 1896.

To the semantics, Tuttle did not "incorporate" Miami. As it was pointed out above, Tuttle did not have the power to do that; only 300+ residents could hold a vote for that purpose. The link that provides the reference for Tuttle's founding of the city specifically uses that word, though I don't believe "infoplease.com" is the most scholarly of sources. That said, she did plat her land and coordinated with Flagler to plan the city. I think the use of the word "found" is correct, though I wouldn't object to some softening of the language ("Tuttle is generally acknowledged as the founder of Miami", for example). --Scaletail (talk) 15:35, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I wish we could find more definitive sources for what 'Miami' meant during most of the 19th century. It was fairly common to designate a place with few or no inhabitants as a county seat (or even a state/territorial or national capitol; Tallahassee was an abandoned Indian town, with few, if any, non-Indian inhabitants, when it was designated as the territorial capitol, and Washington, D.C. was placed on empty land, although there was a settlement at Georgetown), and that is probably what happened when 'Miami' was designated the seat of Dade County. The Biscayne Bay Country had been abandoned in 1836 at the start of the Second Seminole War, and I'm not aware of reports of settlers returning to the area by 1844, although records of such things are scarce. In any case, Dade County government limped along for many years, with large gaps in the records of who held county offices throughout the 1840s, 1850s and 1860s. Although there was a post office named Fort Dallas, and Fort Dallas was serving as the county seat by the 1870s, I see no evidence that Fort Dallas itself was home to more than one family and its retainers/hangers on for most of the time. I see no basis for claiming the existence of a community/settlement called 'Miami' before 1896.

I agree that infoplease.com is a weak source for naming Tuttle as "founder" of Miami (and it may be that infoplease got that from this article). I believe that Tuttle may have the best claim for being called the "founder of Miami", but we really need a good source for that title. What we can cite are sources that call her the "mother of Miami". So, if no one comes up with a better source than infoplease for Tuttle as "founder", I suggest we change the article to describe her as the "mother of Miami". Let's give it a few days for comments, and see if we can reach a consensus. -- Donald Albury 11:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I am agreeable to that. --Scaletail (talk) 18:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

And I found in South Florida History Magazine for Summer, 1995 this quote: "Miami is credited with being the only major city in the United States to have been conceived by a woman, Julia Tuttle." "Mother of Miami" is already in her article (Julia Tuttle). Some on-line sources for "Mother of Miami" include: [3], [4] which, incidentally states that there were only nine people, including Tuttle and her children, living along the Miami River before the railroad came, [5], which includes the phrase, "On July 28, 1896, without every[sic] having been a village or a town or an incorporated municipality of any kind, the City of Miami sprang into existence...". There are other sources on-line, but I haven't tried to determine if they got the phrase from WP. There is even a Miami Herald article that calls Tuttle the "founder of Miami"[6], but it is quite possible the reporter picked up the phrase from WP. "Mother of Miami", however, is in the book Miami, USA, which was first published in the 1950s, and the phrase supposedly goes back to Flagler himself. -- Donald Albury 02:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok friends, in light of all that's been discussed, yes I will agree that the title "Mother of Miami" would appear to me to be more appropriate.Rahiim03 (talk) 04:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay it looks like we're back to 'square A'. Someone has changed the article to reflect that Miami was "concieved" by a woman,(Julia Tuttle). This is inaccurate and history refute this and will bear this out. I would never have approved of such a change. In my opinion the name, "Miami" or the "village of Miami" was concieved long before Ms. Tuttle appeared on the scene. Again, I maintain that Miami WAS NOT concieved or founded by Ms. Tuttle. I made a concession to the term "mother of Miami" though, lacking in depth, sophistication or originality, is a more acceptable title due to credit for her role in impressing Mr. Flagler to send a railroad. If you are going to stick with that word 'concieved' or 'founded' you may also want to atleast mention William English's role in the 1840's in 'chartering the village of Miami" in the area.Rahiim03 (talk) 15:19, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

How about if we focus on streets. Arva Moore Parks in Miami, the Magic City, page 65 says "Julia Tuttle had laid out one street (Miami Avenue) on which several stores were near completion" when Flagler's men arrived. Remember, the city limits included only the Tuttle and Brickell properties. There were only Tuttle's and Brickell's houses in Miami when Tuttle founded the city by beginning to lay out the street grid and selling lots. GroveGuy (talk) 20:23, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think "conceived" is too strong of a word. The modern City of Miami was largely conceived and planned for by Tuttle. Whatever English did was lost because of the Seminole Wars. To my knowledge, Miami was not incorporated as anything other than a city in 1896. I would be very interested in seeing anything relating to the Village of Miami. --Scaletail (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I added the 'conceived' quote, which I had previously referred to in this discussion. Please note that "conceived by ... Julia Tuttle" is a direct quote from a reliable source, South Florida History magazine, which is published by the Historical Museum of South Florida. Per the policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability, that quote is allowable. -- Donald Albury 15:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Miami's Nicknames

As far as I know a LOT of people also call Miami "Vice City". I'm from Miami and I live in Miami and you hear that expression almost on a daily basis. I dont know if it has anything to do with the 2002 videogame but anyone that hears about miami the first thing that comes to mind is the 80's, cocaine and exotic cars. I think it should be included in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.107.125.82 (talk) 00:39, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Find a reliable source which uses the nickname, and we can include it. Without a reference, it's a no-go. Horologium (talk) 02:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Fourth Largest Metro Area?

Since when has the South Florida metropolitan area become the fourth largest in the country? Where did Houston, DFW, and Philadelphia go? The worst thing is, not only is this "fact" stated once--it is stated twice, even in the introduction, with broken links as "references." I'm not even going to bother posting data or tables--I think whoever knows a little bit about this topic knows that there are six, not three, six MSAs that are larger than Miami-Dade/Broward/Palm Beach. I'm removing all the sections that state otherwise and replacing them with up-to-date information.--AndresTM (talk) 02:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It says urbanized area not metropolitan area. I will be reverting your changes. Forgive the misunderstanding. SoCal L.A. (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I only reverted the part where it talked about the urbanized area. I left the other updates. Thanks for caring about the page :). SoCal L.A. (talk) 02:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You shouldn't have. "Urbanized area" is a loose term, whereas Metropolitan Statistical Area is a well-established way of measuring the size of an urban agglomeration in the United States. Since the pages of every single US town in Wikipedia take the Census Bureau data to be the ultimate source of demographic information, we should not use UN estimates to claim that the Miami whatever area is the fourth largest in the country, when it CLEARLY isn't. It isn't encyclopedic to present various, contradicting sets of data when we could just stick to the clearer one. I am going to attempt to reorganize the paragraphs, but please discuss with me the changes that I made that you would wish to revert before doing so. I am not doing it just for the heck of it.--AndresTM (talk) 02:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Wait for others opinions before changing the page as Wikipedia works by consensus. I personally have nothing against your changes but wait for others opinions. SoCal L.A. (talk) 02:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This is not a matter of choice, SoCal L.A. It is a matter of presenting the most accurate, widely used, and consistent facts. We cannot have a table with official data saying one thing and then contradicting claims in other articles that cannot be edited because of the need of a "consensus." Consensuses are needed for controversial or big edits, but if every single correction that is made in this encyclopedia needed a consensus, it wouldn't be as big as it is now. I have edited the introductory paragraph and replaced the UN information with US Census Bureau data. First of all, as I said, we should stick to one source, and since Wikipedia mostly uses the US Census Bureau info, then we should not contradict other articles, such as the Table of United States Metropolitan Statistical Areas, which uses up-to-date census information. Second, it is misleading to indicate that in the 2000 census SFL was the fifth biggest metro area and then in 2008, according to the UN, it had "risen up" to fourth. That neglects the fact that MIA is in fact going down the rankings, as metro areas like Houston are growing more steadily. Third, any claim that suggests that SFL is larger than DFW or the Houston metro area is just outdated. DFW has almost a million more people. SoCal L.A., I see your point, but please understand that there is no such thing as a distinction between "metropolitan area" and "urban area" that justifies including two contradictory data. Officially, the most up-to-date information that reflects the size of the cities is in the form of this table, so we should be a little more professional about it. Let's not confuse the readers, please.--AndresTM (talk) 02:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Urbanized area refers to well, urbanized and densely populated. Metropolitan areas can refer to whole counties as with the case with San Diego. Just saying so that others won't get mad. I'm not contradicting what your saying, but just wait for others opinions. SoCal L.A. (talk) 03:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

If it says fourth-largest urbanized area according to the UN, then it's fourth-largest urbanized area. What's the confusion? --Comayagua99 (talk) 04:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my point. SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The U.S. Census Bureau does have an official list of urban areas. An official 2008 estimate can be found here. --Polaron | Talk 23:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, admittedly I did not articulate myself very well. Sorry if you thought I was mad at you. What I'm trying to say here is that we **should** (must, I would say) use 2008 US Census Bureau metropolitan areas data INSTEAD OF the UN urbanized areas data, at least in the introduction. I'm not saying urban area and metropolitan area are interchangeable terms, and while I will admit to suggesting that the UN data were inaccurate, which was preposterous, I still contend that we SHOULD use the OMB definition of metropolitan area to describe the size of South Florida. Here's why:

1. CONSISTENCY—most, if not all, of the Wikipedia articles on large US cities make references to their respective METROPOLITAN AREA (and, consequently, the US Census Bureau) data within their introduction, in lieu of the "urban area" data by the UN. Examples: New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Atlanta, Washington, D.C., Boston, Detroit, Phoenix, San Bernardino, Seattle. Should I go on or is my point clear enough? I find it preposterous that, of the tenth largest metropolitan areas in the US, Miami is the only "core" city in whose article editors have refused to include metro area statistics in the introduction, and in fact have reverted such changes when they were made, arguing that a consensus is needed. Is 13 other articles a good enough consensus? Oh, not to mention that 6 of those are featured articles.

2. RELIABILITY—The OMB definition of a metropolitan area is a clear, consistent, reliable one. There is no ambiguity or subjectivity in it. "Urban area," define it as you will, IS a subjective term. There is no such thing as a boundary that separates urban area from rural area, so a population count within an urban area will ALWAYS be a rough, inconsistent, subjective estimate, as opposed to the metro area population estimated yearly by the US Census Bureau, which is as reliable and official as it gets.

As to what I'm proposing. Instead of "in 2000 it was the fifth largest urbanized area and in 2008 it became the fourth largest according to the UN" we should write EITHER:

-In 2008 SFL metro area was the seventh largest with X people according to the census bureau. The urbanized area, however, was the fourth largest according to an UN estimate.

OR: -In 2000 it was such and such, but 2008 estimates from the US Census Bureau place it such and such.

The objective of this, I cannot emphasize enough, is to make the article CONSISTENT with similar articles and other widely used data. I don't think I need to say more. The mere fact that the articles of NYC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Atlanta, DC, Boston, Detroit, Phoenix, San Bernardino, Seattle, and countless others have established a precedent that FAVORS the use of metro area data FROM the US Census Bureau should be enough for us to be able to make the change without the need of a consensus. This is not a controversial issue, this is not an unverifiable claim, this is not a change FROM the precedent. I'm just trying to make the Miami article MORE like the rest of the articles on US cities in Wikipedia. SoCal L.A., if you really are keen on making such changes impossible, then I will gladly stop trying, but please YOU give me a reason why you oppose them. Will you please indicate whether, and WHY, you favor or disfavor such changes, instead of invoking the need of a consensus toward which you are not really helping?

Will the "opposing side" (if there even is one) present their arguments?--AndresTM (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

My statement appears to have been overlooked. The urbanized area is an official definition by the U.S. Census Bureau with boundaries delineated by a well-defined algorithm. There is nothing subjective about this. The Census Bureau also has 2008 estimates of the larger urbanized areas so one can use a Census Bureau source if one doesn't want to use the UN source. --Polaron | Talk 01:43, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No, it was not overlooked. You, on the other hand, have overlooked the main point of my lengthy response. Not very respectful of you, but I will repeat it for the thousandth time: CONSISTENCY. No other US major city article talks about urbanized area in their introduction. They talk about metropolitan areas. Very encyclopedic to make the Miami article different, isn't it? I'm sure Britannica would do the same. And by the way, I never denied the fact that the Census Bureau may have an algorithm to calculate the size of an urbanized area; I'm denying the fact that the UN estimates of urban area populations in the US are anywhere close to the accuracy of the U.S. Census Bureau estimates of metro area populations in the US. Wikipedia should stick to what's more reliable and clearly defined. Oh, wait, it does, except for this article. Did I mention, by the way, that the links that support the "fourth largest metropolitan area" claims are broken? That alone should have been enough to allow me to use the Census Bureau information, but inexplicably people still refuse to accept it.--AndresTM (talk) 03:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

There is also this phrase "The Miami metropolitan area, which includes Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, had a combined population of more than 5.4 million people, ranked fourth-largest in the United States," which is undeniably inaccurate, and I had corrected but was reverted back to its error. Its link is broken as well. I seriously cannot understand why people here refuse to clean up this article. I just cannot see why.--AndresTM (talk) 03:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The page has both the urbanized and metropolitan area information. There is nothing wrong with that. It is better then consistent at least due to the fact that it has more information then other pages. SoCal L.A. (talk) 03:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No. The UN World Urbanization Prospects report uses the exact same definitions that the U.S. Census Bureau does. --Polaron | Talk 04:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see this is working out much better. Thanks for making the amendment. It looks much better now than it did two days ago, I believe. By the way, as for the demographics section, please do not revert the changes I made once again. Understand that that section didn't even talk about urbanized areas. It outright talked about metropolitan areas and stated that Miami's was the fourth largest, which is dead wrong. Its link was not working either. I have fixed it numerous times but people keep reverting that change. Will you please act like reasonable men?--AndresTM (talk) 04:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

(comment moved from top of section to here) - Donald Albury

This is the most preposterous claim I believe I've ever read on wikipedia and should be changed immediately. The Combined Miami- Ft. Lauderdale MSA is 7th in the US and the core Miami Metro area is about 30th with 2.47 million residents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.223.156 (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

The Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Pompano Beach Metropolitan Area includes Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties. The Miami Urbanized Area, as defined by the U.S. government, extends from Florida City in the south of Miami-Dade County to Jupiter/Tequesta at the northern boundary of Palm Beach County. Please look at the cited sources. -- Donald Albury 11:49, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Crime

I find the article very informative and interesting. However, it lacks one important social aspect: according to Forbes (2009) it is one of the three most criminal metropolitan areas with over 950 violent crimes committed per 100.000 inhabitants, thus leading the statistics along with Memphis and Detroit, which are the only places so far ahead the figures. This is not meant to slander the city or its people. Nevertheless I consider these numbers relevant since they are indicators for social tension and also are a splendid counterexample for the widespread opinion good environmental policies are somehow related to a place's balanced social dynamics. Couldn't this be a worthy addition to your article? If I were competent in the matter I'd do it myself. But I am definitely not. --87.175.153.127 (talk) 11:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Did you read the comments to the story? Mostly they say it was poorly researched. The 69 readers only gave it 2.5 stars out of 5. A well researched section on crime might be interesting, though. You could have a map showing the bad areas to avoid.GroveGuy (talk) 15:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

A recent problem

A google search of "miami" is now sometimes bringing up only this: M.I.A.M.I. and not the article on the city. 74.37.239.185 (talk) 19:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC) Look; http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS294&=&q=miami&aq=f&oq= Probably not what most people searching for Miami are looking for. 74.37.239.185 (talk) 19:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

• The city article does show up finally on the second page. It should be on the first page right after google's thing and the city's government website. 74.37.239.185 (talk) 19:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It would seem your problem lies with Google, not Wikipedia. --Scaletail (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Geography Section, First Paragraph

I've never edited a Wikipedia article and I don't currently have the time to put into it (though at some point I'd like to take the time to give back). But I did want to point out some erroneous information that one of you fine contributors can take a look at.

In the first paragraph of the Geography section it states, "Miami is the only major city in the United States bordered by two national parks, Everglades National Park on the west, and Biscayne National Park on the east." I have no idea where the writer of this statement came up with this, but it is simply not true. The city of Miami doesn't share a single inch of border with any national park. Any look at a map makes that perfectly clear. There's a slight chance it may share a small bit of maritime border with the park, but i doubt it and haven't had the chance to verify.

I hope someone can clear this up. I do believe in consensus, so I didn't go ahead and make the change, but it is definitely factually incorrect. Is the city near two national parks? Absolutely. But I think that's about it.

Cheers!

Alan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.32.123.87 (talk) 07:52, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Problem of neutrality

This article, yet complete, seems to avoid the issue of crime. No statistics are given about the crime rate, neither about the amount of homicide per year and its evolution. In view of the violence present in the poor areas of Miami, a complete paragraph should be dedicated to this topic. Without it, this article stands more as a touristic and promotional description of the city rather than an wikipedia article -as the links given in the end demonstrate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.170.39 (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

The word "crime" doesn't even appear in the article... CSZero (talk) 15:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It also mentions nothing about the rampant corruption which has been present in the city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.39.78 (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Be bold. --Scaletail (talk) 15:41, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

This article is too big

This article is too big. I'm always getting "waiting for content" when I try to look at it.GroveGuy (talk) 06:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the page size:

Document statistics:

• File size: 403 kB
• Prose size (including all HTML code): 99 kB
• References (including all HTML code): 4836 B
• Wiki text: 99 kB
• Prose size (text only): 47 kB (7762 words) "readable prose size"
• References (text only): 319 B</quote>

The actual text is not all that large. It looks like the bulk of the page size is due to all of the images. -- Donald Albury 11:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I cut down the number of images by about half, but the article size has been only marginally affected. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 04:08, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the SURROUNDING AREAS section could be eliminated. Also the ACCENT section, the CIVIC ENGAGEMENT section, and PROFESSIONAL TRAINING PROGRAMS. For a long time I've been wanting to take HAVANA off the list of sister cities but I've been afraid. Is this article about the city or the area? Cultural objects outside the city limits like the Ring Theatre in Coral Gables could be eliminated. GroveGuy (talk) 04:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess I misjudged the significance of the page size statistics. I agree that the article is bloated and needs to be tightened up. If something is worthy of inclusion in WP, but is only peripheral to the city of Miami, it can go elsewhere. -- Donald Albury 13:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Population is way off-intro and infobox are using 2009 estimates

The introduction and the infobox are using the 433,000 2009 population estimate. The population did not grow as much as they thought, probably partly because of the crash, and according to the 2010 Census data, which I added to the demographics table only, the immediate city proper area still has not broken 400,000. I conjured up the metro are by simply adding the total population of the three counties together, I'm pretty sure that's how it was done before. 169.139.19.135 (talk) 23:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC) This is me at the library I forgot to log in. Daniel Christensen (talk) 23:40, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't feel like refiguring out where Miami ranks with the "real" population, but it's probably not 42nd. That bit should be removed altogether anyway as that is NO way to rank this city as the technical CITY OF MIAMI area is very small. So small that it makes Jacksonville look bigger, only because Jacksonville is not broken up into a million sub cities. Also, the popluation of the Miami area and Dade County is always well known to be extremely understated from all the people who are afraid to answer the census/illegal immigrants. Daniel Christensen (talk) 23:43, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Please, cite reliable sources for population (i.e., US government sites are best). The Census Bureau publishes population figures for the MSA, use those, don't use your original research. This article is about the City of Miami proper. The City of Miami ranks pretty far down the list because it is unusually small for a central city of a metropolitan area. Again, don't try to figure it out yourself, that is original research. Find a reliable source for ranking based on the 2010 census. -- Donald Albury 11:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

To help cut down on the article size, the best thing to do is give things their own article, i.e. Demographics of Miami and only having an introduction to this in the main article. There is A LOT that could be said about demographics in Miami, such as all the little cities that make it up. Of all the cities that have seperate Demographics of.... articles I can not believe Miami does not. I do believe that it is true that the census is way undercounted in and around Miami, and not just because of illegal immigrants. Daniel Christensen (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

proper demographic terms instead of racism

I know terms as "caucasian" are common in the USA. OK, unbearable enough, but they are also absolutely arbitrary in the sense of describing an ethnic group or a certain heritage. TOTALLY arbitrary in fact, have a racist tendency and are just a freakin tool for prejudice. If not enough the chart names "races".. Come on, this is a encyclopedia, not a gov and neither a rep site (as if that wouldn't be scandalous enough). let's stay focused, analytical and academic: CUT IT and replace it with ethnic groups - european, african, carribean or whatever etc.. heritage (for instance) or anything else BUT RACE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.188.64.131 (talk) 23:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

FIU Championship info incorrect.

I am a student of FIU.

FIU's football team won the Sunbelt Conference Championship and won a bowl game at Little Caesars Pizza Bowl against Toledo on December 26, 2010.

Making their number of championships 5 not 4 and their most recent 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_International_University#Athletics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenlosada (talk • contribs) 06:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)