Talk:Mina'i ware

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:22, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

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Mina'i ware bowl

• ... that production of mina'i ware (example pictured), the first pottery to use overglaze enamels, stopped with the Mongol invasion of Persia in 1219? Source: a)Needham, 618, "Gulbenkian", Only the Best: Masterpieces of the Calouste Gulbenkian Museum, Lisbon, eds. Katharine Baetjer, James David Draper, 1999, Metropolitan Museum of Art, ISBN 0870999265, 9780870999260, google books, and Watson, 326, and b) Komaroff, Linda, The Legacy of Genghis Khan: Courtly Art and Culture in Western Asia, 1256-1353, p. 4, 2002, Metropolitan Museum of Art, ISBN 1588390713, 9781588390714; and and this, also Fitzwilliam Museum: "Mina’i, meaning ‘enamelled’ ware, is one of the glories of Islamic ceramics, and was a speciality of the renowned ceramics centre of Kashan in Iran during the decades of the late 12th and early 13th centuries preceding the Mongol invasions"

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Wells curve

Created by Johnbod (talk). Self-nominated at 13:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC).

• Excellent article, very well sourced. Photo is good, and appropriately licensed. Two things need doing: (1) QPQ, and (2) the sourcing of the hook. I have read and reread p.618 of Needham – I don't believe it covers the statements in the hook. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:49, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Needham does I think cover the first part, given there are no other contenders than China. But I'll see if I can get a clearer online ref. I was looking for an online hook for the second part. Two now added. Johnbod (talk) 15:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Three. Onceinawhile, please revisit. Johnbod (talk) 01:12, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Johnbod, Many thanks. It all looks good - the only piece I am not certain on is the "first pottery to use overglaze enamels" statement. I have looked at each of the sources above and I can't see it. Would you mind pointing to the quotes that you are intending to point to? Onceinawhile (talk) 13:57, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

How about this - "The first evidences of creating overglaze polychrome decoration was nevertheless achieved on mīnāʾī glazed objects in the thirteenth century AD, which as Abu’l Qasim stated used be originally called haft rang, e.g. ‘seven colours.’" Johnbod (talk) 15:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Or this]. Johnbod (talk) 15:58, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Johnbod, I don’t think they say precisely that it was the first enamel-overglazed pottery. Each is saying something slightly different. I have done some googling which suggests overglazed pottery started much earlier – see for example Paul T. Craddock (2009). Scientific Investigation of Copies, Fakes and Forgeries. Routledge. p. 207. ISBN 978-0-7506-4205-7. Pottery only began to be glazed from the mid second millennium BC, coincident with the first production of glass. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

No, no, no - that is ceramic glaze, normally just referred to as "glaze"! This is overglaze decoration in enamels, painted on top of the glaze and fixed by a second firing. Johnbod (talk) 23:16, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

If you look at the diagram on that page, it shows the two stages, as "main glaze"/"main firing" and then "enamel firing" (which his text doesn't give an earliest date for. Johnbod (talk) 17:20, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Johnbod, ok that makes sense. Is "overglaze luster" different as well? I found this, talking about transmission from Egypt to Iran (Kashan), at the same time as Mina'i ware: Hess, Catherine; Komaroff, Linda; Saliba, George (2004). The Arts of Fire: Islamic Influences on Glass and Ceramics of the Italian Renaissance. Getty Publications. ISBN 978-0-89236-758-0. Although they developed fritware for its whiteness, Islamic potters quickly began to add color effects, such as overglaze luster-painted decoration. The art of luster-painted ceramics was likely introduced to Iran in the late twelfth century, probably from Egypt, where it had been in use since at least the early eleventh century.

I see that Lusterware is also "overglaze" with a second firing, but a different type. The article touches on this in the "context" section, but doesn't explain the difference between the two.

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Nouri, Najmeh. (2016). The Main Centers for Production of Enameled Pottery and Their Features. International Journal of Archaeology. 4. 17. 10.11648/j.ija.20160402.12 "Enameled Pottery: It is assumed this [Mina] glazing technique on pottery was invented by Persian people since samples of enameled vessels have not been found in any other place (Allen, 2008:5). The first case of using overlay gild pottery dated back to these enameled potteries in Iran." Onceinawhile (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Onceinawhile (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, overglaze enamels are essentially vitreous enamel, ie melted glass, applied to pottery. The lustreware effect is also a final coating applied over the glaze, and fixed by a light second firing, but uses a very different method, applying small amounts of metallic compounds (generally of silver or copper) mixed with something to make it paintable (clay or oche apparently). This is then fired in a reducing atmosphere at a temperature high enough to "soften" the glaze from the first firing, and break down the metallic compounds, leaving a very thin ("perhaps 10 or 20 atoms thick") layer that is fused with the main glaze, but is mainly metal. It normally only uses one colour per piece, and the range is limited - in this period "gold" normally. Overglaze enamels leave a much thicker layer of glass, the edges of which can be felt by running a finger over the surface. Both techniques were largely taken from earlier use on glass in the Islamic world - I need to add to enamelled glass on this. Details from the last, technical chapters of Caiger-Smith. Hope that helps. Johnbod (talk) 01:30, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, where are we with this? Johnbod (talk) 13:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: I gave it the green tick on 19 June as it was good to go as far as I am concerned - the Najmeh Nouri source said it as clear as it can be. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Mīnākārī

It may be worth clarifying the difference between Mina'i ware and Mīnākārī. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2020 (UTC)