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Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 8

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by ScottishFinnishRadish in topic Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2022
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To Do for FAR

Latest comment: 3 years ago108 comments5 people in discussion

Any editor can edit this list and this article! The following can be done now to prepare for WP:FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Two sections redone recently:

Geography and climate

Demographics

  • Needs Black perspective and sources
Example: this addition was removed as WP:PROMOTION (that happened twice and this is or was the only restaurant on Broadway)   Done

Culture: Theater and performing arts

Overall use most recent source per SandyGeorgia. Remove old rankings. (Started to use 2010 as a cutoff where possible.)   Done -SusanLesch (talk) 16:02, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Good suggestions from an IP in 2017

Discussion

I think think the zoning paragraph might be better placed in the History section for now but may be a better fit if there was a section on neighborhoods in the Geography section like in several other city articles (Boston#Neighborhoods, Cleveland#Neighborhoods. San_Francisco#Neighborhoods). I hesitate to add more content to the article because I agree with SandyGeorgia that the article may be sprawling and less focused already. Regardless of location, the paragraph could be trimmed with the more detailed explanatory details linked to a different appropriate article.  Eóin (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you! Your edits are tightly focused and really improved the zoning paragraph and Transportation section. Plus it is helpful to see three examples of FAs. Because WikiProject Cities allows for Neighborhoods sections I will try one (we got a complaint about History being too long). -SusanLesch (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Before we had zoning and neighborhoods in at least two places each. See what you think now. Will this work? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I think this works really well. I hope someday we have an article on the Neighborhood Revitalization Program but until then mentioning it can wait. Eóin (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Restored what was cut. I thought NRP ended before our proposed cutoff. Maybe you will add its resurrection. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Took this out for now. Use it or not. Sorry I don't remember what the program did anymore. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
The program has changed names and direction over the years. [1] A paragraph on neighborhood control and governance including the NRP may be appropriate in the future but I would need to do some more research before I feel comfortable summarizing it. Eóin (talk) 03:20, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Citizens had a unique and powerful influence in neighborhood government. Neighborhoods coordinated activities under the Neighborhood Revitalization Program (NRP), scheduled to end in 2009,[1] however NRP funds were dispersed to neighborhoods in 2014.[2]

References

  1. ^ "Minneapolis Neighborhoods: Keep Working on NRP and Stay Tuned" (Press release). Minneapolis Neighborhood Revitalization Program. December 29, 2010. Archived from the original on January 3, 2011. Retrieved January 15, 2011.
  2. ^ Gotlieb, Nate (February 27, 2017). "Neighborhood groups surprised by NRP reallocation". Southwest Journal. Retrieved November 13, 2020.

I'm having a heck of time with the population. Sources are easy to find but most are at the wrong geographical level (the state or the metropolitan area). -SusanLesch (talk) 20:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments from SandyGeorgia

I will start a section here and add to it as I have time, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

That's a start ... there is much more ... I will continue to peek in occasionally, but please ping me should I get busy and forget. Good luck here! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Great start, thank you, Sandy. Would anyone else here be able to install the three scripts recommended above? I don't use JavaScript. Will also post this request to WikiProject Minnesota. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You can get some ideas for fixing image layout and sandwiching problems by looking at what I did at Mayfly and Marilyn Monroe; hope this helps! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)   Done -SusanLesch (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: This article uses left and right to separate images and always has. Are you sure you want Template:multiple image propogated? The documentation says it "does not respect users' default image size preferences". -SusanLesch (talk) 23:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Without it, you have a LOT of images to delete to resolve MOS:SANDWICH ... your choice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: MOS:SANDWICHes done. What else can I work on? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

In progress:

  • Culture>Racial conflicts and Government>Police.
  • Reviewing citations one by one.

Questions:

-SusanLesch (talk) 18:24, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Sandy and all. I don't dare cut much more. Here's a summary of progress.
Size over time
Bytes Date
FA 32 kB June 2007
Before 59 kB November 2019
After 45 kB January 2021
  • Two big errors are fixed: Claims for 1) Theater in Minneapolis and 2) LGBT people in Minneapolis.
  • The racial conflict section is focused to quote two local experts. An invitation for more was posted here at talk and at WikiProject Minnesota. A few sentences were added explaining historical unrest. I sent email to two other outside authorities asking for more input which we might get someday or not. So I guess we have probably addressed racial unrest. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

SG revisit

SusanLesch my apologies for the delay; such is the world of Wikipedia, where there are never enough hours in the day. I will start a fresh look through now. My usual approach is to start over at the top rather than trying to review my previous commentary, so please pardon if I am repetitively repetitive! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Hand checked. I didn't run that script yet though. Done. -19:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • You can install User:Evad37/duplinks-alt to check for duplicate links. Some duplicate links can be justified, so judgment is needed, but we have Saint Anthony Falls linked twice in two paragraphs now (sample only, pls check throughout).
Hand checked. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I went straight to the Infrastructure section to see if the RECENTISM (re COVID) had been addressed. There I see:
    There is a bit of excess detail about public transport that can be/is already covered at those articles, and might not be essential here in terms of summary style. (Not a guide ... lightrail connects downtown with airport and MOA would be enough. Is Northwest LRT still a live project?) But ... what I don't see is any mention of the considerable controversy over funds used for the light rail system (metro vs. outstate tax money controversy, which has been going on for decades), and I see no mention of the serious developing crime and homelessness issues on the light rail.
I think Eóin started this. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't believe outstate/metro funding battles over transportation money is covered very deeply on Wikipedia and I wonder if a regional issue like that is best left for a different page. I can certainly add a sentence or two on homelessness and crime on light rail, I know the individual articles don't cover that content right now. Perhaps: "Hundreds of homeless people nightly sought shelter on Green Line trains until overnight service was cut back in 2019 and rising crime on the light rail system led to discussion in the state legislature on how to best address the issue in 2020. [2][3] -Eóin (talk) 23:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Go for it, Eóin. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Similar for excess detail on MSP; it has its own article and we do really need to know what highways it's on? The article is over 7,000 words, and keeping it trim will make for easier maintenance.
Eóin did this. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Ranked among the best, Bicycling named Minneapolis the 4th best bicycling city in 2018. (Remove redundancy that is editorializing and bordering on puffery, just not needed, let the facts speak for themselves.)
That's a true statement but I can remove it. "Minneapolis won this competition back in 2010, and it’s always near the top." (Bicycling magazine, 2018) and Top 10 U.S. Cities for Biking in 2020 (Redfin). -SusanLesch (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Walk Score rated Minneapolis as having the 13th highest Walk Score and the highest Bike Score among cities with more than 200,000 people in the US. Statements like this (throughout) need as of dates or time context.
Already says "2020". -SusanLesch (talk) 19:18, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Done. Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • The Health and utilities section could include a {{further hatnote to the relevant COVID article. I don't know how to solve this (you may need to look at other geography articles to see what they do, and Nikkimaria might help, but health and utilities just don't go together. Further, I expect to find some information there about how relatively healthy Minneapolis is compared to other cities of similar size (good access to walking paths, bicycling, etc.)
Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Next, I went to the Police section to see if the RECENTISM re Chauvin/Floyd has been addressed:
    I need to be convinced that https://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/minnesota/minneapolis.html is a reliable source, and I am not sure the text in the article reflects what the source says.
    Killings of citizens — most often Black — ... again, faulty spaced emdashes ...
    The result was a "moribund and peaceful" environment until the 1990s.[226] .. this is cited to citypages, and it appears to have been written by a restaurant critic. We should have higher quality sources for statements like this, and even if that statement were retained, it would be best attributed as opinion.
    have dominated the city's news for a decade. ... dominated ? source? Seems like editorializing.
    U.S. News & World Report said in 2011 that Minneapolis tied with Cleveland, Ohio as the 10th most dangerous city in the US.[231] Not a quite accurate representation of the source, which distinguishes violent crime from property crimes. The content of the source is slightly different than the headline.
This one is indeed tricky. The source says the risk of crime among their ranked cities is mainly property crimes. However they conclude with Minneapolis #1 in forcible rape. Our article covered rape in the preceding sentence, do you really want to explain it all again? I'm not opposed to completely removing this if need be (I had been using 2010 as a cut-off rule of thumb, and 2011 is close).
Section rewritten and re-sourced. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Review throughout for current relevance (that is, some text seems leftover from earlier versions). Do we really need to know about a temporary shutdown of three library branches in 2007? faced a severe budget shortfall for 2007, and was forced to temporarily close three of its neighborhood libraries ...
Good catch. Library branches deleted. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Minneapolis has been a cultural center for theatrical performances since the mid 1800s. Is this cited, or is it editorialzing? That is, most large cities are cultural centers.
Reworded to say post Civil War instead of mid 1800s and cited. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • There is still MOS:SANDWICH that can be resolved by better placement of, or reduction in the number of, images.
Some images removed. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

This is not comprehensive, as I don't have time to review indepth today, but it gives some things to start on. Nikkimaria may have other suggestions, along with idea of how to better position Health, which is now oddly grouped with Utilities. Fine work so far ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/US_Guideline would just have the two as separate subsections under Infrastructure. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:09, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Have a look at image licensing - for example File:Minneapolis_Police_1959_traffic_control.jpg has a tag requiring that the image was published before 1978, but the description only has it being taken then
Good catch. The publication date is as unknown as the date it was made (estimated at 1959). It comes from the Minnesota Historical Society and doesn't carry a copyright or source there. What do you think? I would like to keep a positive police image (and this fits the prose perfectly) but will remove it if need be. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Are there any other known publications of it? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
None I found. Accession # yields no clue (this # is not among An Inventory of Newspaper Negatives). I was hoping for something at newspapers.com. Search of Internet Archive, Google Books and Scholar for "Clarence Pederson" found nothing. Common sense would tell us that probably nobody would take a 1959 photo, hold it for almost twenty years, and then first publish it after 1977. I found four possible replacement photos but none that good. Must I remove it? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately it does sound like it, unless another reason for it to be in the public domain can be demonstrated. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Some of the details in the lead don't seem to be supported anywhere - for example the claim to being the flour milling capital
Flour milling cited and stated. Biking was removed. Anything else? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
"Reflecting the region's status as a center of folk, funk, and alternative rock music" - I don't see any other mention of "funk" in the article? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
That would be Prince. We go into more detail about him already than for any other person. I added the word "funk" to his photo caption. Is the lead all right now? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't think we need to go into more detail about him, but I also am not sure that his mere existence allows us to claim that the region is a centre of funk music. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay good. MOS:LEADREL says we don't have to mirror everything. I would say The Time, The Revolution, and a host of other bands can safely be omitted to make room for Prince. We do mention Jimmy Jam and his band. Is the lead done? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
As I said, I don't think that the existence of Prince allows us to say, in the lead or elsewhere, that the region is "a center of folk, funk, and alternative rock music". If there's nothing further to support this, I would suggest removing it. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, it is not my desire to argue with you but this is inexplicable. Why do you narrowly object to the word funk? Why not object to folk? Do you have some special knowledge or background in this subject of funk music? There is plenty to support that sentence which an IP added. For "funk" here's one downloadable source: [1] Or maybe you can get a preview of, for example, page 143 in this book that we have used to build this article.[2] I have to be careful because I know approximately how much I don't know about music. If you are still not satisfied I am going to have to ask an outside expert, a professional music writer, for advice. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, great - that's what I was asking above, whether there was more to it than just Prince. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:36, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
All right, thanks. What else in the lead needs fixing or is this item done? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Looks like the other piece missing support is that the Guthrie Theater is "award-winning". Nikkimaria (talk) 01:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Is a Tony Award in 1982 enough? If not I should remove that, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Removed. We should celebrate with Minneapolis's Mind & Matter, a 1970s soul and funk (AllMusic) band mentioned in this article. Do they make anybody else miss Prince? -SusanLesch (talk) 06:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Dean, Patty (Spring 2002). "PunkFunkRockPop". Minnesota History. Vol. 58, no. 1.
  2. ^ Swensson, Andrea (October 10, 2017). Got to Be Something Here: The Rise of the Minneapolis Sound. University Of Minnesota Press. ISBN 9780816632336.
  • I'm a bit confused by the Etymology section. Were all those alternative names simultaneous or over time (what time period)? For the same settlement, or was there an incorporation of multiple settlements involved? Why so many names?
Reworded. Okay now? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Better, but when was the current name settled on, and when was it actually made official? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Reworded. Okay now? The very next section gives these dates. Maybe this is confusing because the city is on both sides of the mighty Mississippi. It gets more complicated in the next section. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. Might it make more sense to incorporate the content on naming into the History section? The section as it exists is quite short, and that might allow us to provide context while avoiding redundancy. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Rjensen created this section because he thought we needed one. Do either you or I know enough about history to overrule him? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Um. He's welcome to provide input on the question, but I don't think reorganizing is about "overruling" him. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I did not write the section on the name, but moved it out of the lead. I think it is useful and well-sourced and short. It's common in Wikipedia to give unusual names their own short section outside of the long history section. Rjensen (talk) 04:41, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
WP:USCITIES says the History section is teetering on the edge of too long. I have tried to keep it trimmed back. Logically, the Etymology section could be dropped in between the first two paragraphs. But then it might need another level of heading. Pardon me for sensing a can of worms. Not long ago, Etymology was too hard to parse. If you are 100% sure, I will do it. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:36, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Also I think the story of Caucasian settlers forcing out the Dakota people is more important than the name Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree - is there sourcing available on the pre-contact history that may warrant inclusion? I'm going to demo a potential organization of the existing content, but this might be worth adding. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Nikkimaria, I'm with you. Can you get it down to three sentences? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, can you clarify - what am I getting to three sentences? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:11, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The etymology of the word Minneapolis. Can you get this down to three or even two sentences? Residents had divergent ideas on names for their community: ideas floated and rejected in the 1850s were All Saints, Lowell, Addiesville or Adasville, Winona, Brooklyn, and Albion. The city's first schoolmaster, Charles Hoag was searching for indigenous syllables, when he stumbled on "Indianapolis". In 1852, he proposed "Minnehapolis," with a silent h, combining the Dakota word for "waterfall", Mníȟaȟa,[13] and the Greek word for "city", polis. Newspaperman George Bowman and Daniel Payne dropped the h, leaving out the hah, to create Minneapolis, meaning 'city of the falls'. What's left should go into History of Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Residents had divergent ideas on names for their community: ideas floated and rejected in the 1850s were All Saints, Lowell, Addiesville or Adasville, Winona, Brooklyn, and Albion. In 1852 the city's first schoolmaster, Charles Hoag, proposed "Minnehapolis," with a silent h, combining the Dakota word for "waterfall", Mníȟaȟa,[13] and the Greek word for "city", polis. Newspaperman George Bowman and Daniel Payne dropped the h, leaving out the hah, to create Minneapolis, meaning 'city of the falls'. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:36, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Isn't this enough? I will add the full paragraph to History of Minneapolis. Residents had divergent ideas on names for their community. In 1852 the city's first schoolmaster, Charles Hoag, proposed "Minnehapolis," with a silent h, combining the Dakota word for "waterfall", Mníȟaȟa,[13] and the Greek word for "city", polis. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Nikkimaria, I cut what we had way back; added the whole thing to History of Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:32, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
  • If climate is a subsection, it shouldn't also be in the section title. There's also some unsourced content in these sections.
Section renamed. Still needs one source. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 
  • Why is Racial conflicts part of Culture?
Moved to Demographics. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Are there any significant festivals other than Fringe?
Thank you, section added to Culture. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 

Nikkimaria, thank you for your focus on content. I'll do what I can. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Signing off

@SandyGeorgia: you're late. I'll do what I can. I told you in November that my deadline is tomorrow, January 15. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, sigh, I am behind and late on about 25 things now :(. My main area of editing has been subject to some battleground disruptive editing, and an arbcase occurred between your first post to me and now, and zapped my time. I do hope some other MN editors will begin to pitch in, as the entire suite of MN FAs needs attention, and you can’t do it alone. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Here's hoping other editors emerge. I will ping two but they are both busy working. This morning we got our first assignment for school so must go poof now. No vacation this year. In order to finish your list I have to read Tom Weber's book (only about 200 pages). Talk with you soon. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
SusanLesch You've made great progress to date. From my point of view, the next step would be to re-read the entire article top-to-bottom, as you have time, and watch for any similar issues to those I have raised so far (is there time context for everything, are there any outdated sources, etc.) I will unwatch for now; please pester my talk page if I can be of any help down the road. I do hope more MN editors will surface to restore what was once an entire suite of MN FAs! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia and Nikkimaria, we've made a little more progress. Do you ever plan to mark Wikipedia:Unreviewed featured articles/2020 as satisfactory? I am still in school, very busy, and can't imagine mounting another round of effort like that last one. 😃 I hope the article looks all right for the spotlight again next week. Thank you either way. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:21, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping; I will put this on my list to review if I ever get a break. If it's on my ToDo list, I will eventually get to it! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Revisiting per request, sorry again for the delay, SusanLesch; there are 4,000 FAs needing review, and we are less than two dozen editors trying to do it.

This very old FA has been considerably rewritten, is quite improved since work started in November, but still has some rough spots. I suggest the best route forward in such cases is to submit the article for renewed vetting at WP:FAR. That will bring more independent eyes to the article, more people to work on the article, and the renewal of the star will have been completely vetted. Because I know you are still in school and very busy, there is no hurry to do this. But I believe the article still needs some elbow grease. Here are just (very brief) examples:

  • In the first paragraph of the lead is a sentence that a) I can't understand without clicking out, and b) I still don't understand after clicking out to the "combined statistical area". The numbers refer (I guess) to population, although construct of the sentence suggests geographical area rather than population, so confusing to a non-geography person like me. In 2019, those counties are among sixteen making up the Minneapolis–St. Paul–Bloomington MN–WI metropolitan area of 3.6 million, and twenty-two making up the combined statistical area of 4.0 million.
  • The lead is short (not a thorough summary) and could benefit from a copyedit. It emphasizes cultural aspects, while leaving out some others.
  • The last two edits to the article indicate there were still citation formatting issues, [5] and that source-to-text integrity checks might still be needed (I found a lot of that in my first pass). [6]
  • Some text is included for which the relevance, context, importance is unclear, sample: Minneapolis is divided into eleven communities, each containing several neighborhoods, of which there are eighty-three. In some cases two or more neighborhoods act together under one organization. Some areas are known by nicknames of business associations.[67]
  • There are still MOS issues, sample: however immigration of fourteen hundred Somalis in 2016, slowed to forty eight in 2018 under President Trump ...

Overall, I suggest this article will benefit from renewed vetting at FAR, but believe that can wait until you have time to deal with it; I don't believe the article is in such shape that it is in danger of someone else submitting a precipitous FAR. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:36, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, thanks for your opinion. Also thanks for the many improvements you made to this article. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Continuing

On Economy. Do you think Investopedia is sufficient to describe the role of the Federal Reserve? I also found a book to explain that it's the smallest by population. Anyway, yes, thank you, a 20-year-old source was way too old. That one is gone. A list of the Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis is in our new chart. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:26, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. At first we had a more restricted use of that quote that was perhaps less misleading. Then it was cut back and now cut out. They did win a Grammy, so we can just use that. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Good enough! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Downtown ambassadors

Latest comment: 3 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

Greetings, Minnemeeples. What are you talking about in your last edit summary? →‎Utilities: Removed blatant promotional content that relied exclusively on defunct primary sources by SMS Holdings Corporation that were hidden within an Easter Eggs for "Block by Block". These ambassadors are important people. They work downtown every day rain or shine, snow or ice. Why would you want to remove unarmed peacekeepers? That's not their primary role but if I was in trouble downtown they're the first person I would ask for help. Why not update the sources, which, by the way, were not "exclusively" from SMS? Also, it's not an WP:EASTEREGG to link to a parent company that lists Block by Block, when Wikipedia does not have the resources to have a separate article for Block by Block.-SusanLesch (talk) 16:07, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the conversation and giving me a chance to explain further. Edit summaries are a lousy way to communicate a thought! :) I agree that the work of the people in the role of a downtown ambassador is important. In my opinion, the problem though is the sourcing of a commercial enterprise and the manner in which the information is presented. SMS Holdings Corporation is a private company and Block by Block is one of its many commercial enterprises. The ambassadors are employees of the company. I am not sure why the Minneapolis article needs to give such a prominent shout out to the out-of-state company that the Downtown Improvement District contracts with for operation of the ambassador program (e.g., "They are employees of Block by Block, a company in Nashville, Tennessee that serves forty-six US cities."). Also, the prior content used as sources the Block by Block website, which is commercial/promotional, and is used to recruit job applicants. The article also used as a source the Mpls Downtown Improvement District website, which is arguably promotional in nature, but a primary source at best. If the ambassador program is worthy of note in the Minneapolis article, a better secondary source should describe it and the work of the people and its relevance to the city. It's not adequate to cite the organization contracting for the work and the private company doing it as valid sources. Whether intended or not, it comes across as promotion of the two, especially as volunteer-led efforts to improve the city get no mention at all. I hope that explanation makes more sense. Minnemeeples (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Can you please say what volunteer-led efforts are not covered? Why are they missing? We include Attitude for Change (it's been removed twice) and recently added MPD150. I would think you could find citations at Twin Cities Daily Planet or Sahan Journal or BringMeTheNews. Can you please restore the ambassadors? Here's a 2020 source. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
"Ambassadors" added back in with the source you recommended. I tried to fit it within the utility section by emphasizing the public-private partnership and tax district aspects, but without a call out to the corporate contractor. The terminology "ambassadors" is a form of marketing/branding to describe paid employees of a corporation, so I used quotations on first use. I hope this helps! Let me get back to you on the volunteer aspect. Minnemeeples (talk) 21:33, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I noticed the source mentions Youth Link and St. Stephen’s Human Services. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Minnesota Freedom Fighters briefly added today. We really need your help with volunteers. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:28, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
@Minnemeeples: I added 7 organizations today but still do not know what you had in mind. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the tag. HandsOn is notable mechanism for volunteering. What about Migizi? Other specific orgs....Open Arms, YWCA Minneapolis, Minneapolis Urban League, etc. Some of those aren't necessarily unique to Minneapolis, but have a strong presence in the city. Not sure what's the balance there for that in terms of a Minneapolis article. MPD150 and Minnesota Freedom Fighters are really political activist groups. There seems to be a lot of recency bias bias in the article by including so many police alternative movements / safety strategy orgs. How many will last? But Agape has been most very notable as of late (but like the ambassadors the relationship there is contractual). Center for Victims of Torture? (Are they in Mpls or StP?) Minnemeeples (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Religion and Somali numbers

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Another article states the Somali demographic in the city is capped at 80,000, but this article says that there are about 120,000. Could it be that it is instead referencing the total Muslim community within the city limits? 72.174.71.134 (talk) 15:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

It is highly doubtful that 25% of the population is Somali, and an assertion that there "may be as many as x Somalis in Minnesota with y percent residing in Minneapolis"[13] is not the most reliable basis for the assertion, particularly as it is at odds with other sources.[14] (19.2% of city population is black}; [15] (32,000 Somalis in Hennepin County). Kablammo (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
The source counted Somalis in Minnesota not Minneapolis, my mistake for copying it. That sentence is reworded thanks to the IP. Kablammo, you would prefer to leave an error like that in the article than change it? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Again thanks to the IP! With a lot of help from the Wilder Foundation now we have an accurate count from 2019 (21,219 Somali residents in Minneapolis). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

LGBTQ+ population

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Greetings, CTF83!. Hennepin County Library tried but couldn't answer this question, and neither could the Wilder Foundation (MN Compass). Susan Brower, the demographer for the State of Minnesota, kindly replied. She confirms that the US Census does not collect this data. Brower sent what they have which is US Census estimates of same sex spouses and partners who live in the same household. Our article has been corrected to cite only Bring Me The News and Gallup. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

P.S. Wilder gave this another look and sent US census data on same sex couples. That could not for example, include someone living alone. They also sent a helpful readme file. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Disparities

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I asked for some help and didn't get it. I added a few sentences to the lead explaining how Mapping Prejudice has shown us that whites asserted control of the city's land. Next apparently I will have to consult with outside experts. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:55, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

History (especially after 1880)

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The History subsection named "social tensions" seems to cover all of Minneapolis history from 1880ish to today. Reading through it, I do not believe it says one positive or even neutral thing about the city.

Of course, I believe that this page should make extensive and thorough reference to Minneapolis's history of racial/social tensions, but it feels inappropriate for it to be the only lens through which the article evaluates the city's history from 1880 to today.

Does anyone have thoughts on how to add to/reform the History section of the article to more fully discuss the city's history in the 20th and 21st centuries?

In my opinion, I would not be opposed to leaving the section on social tensions largely as is, but there needs to be an additional section to cover the city's history other than social conflicts. SpeedMcCool (talk) 04:06, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Iric Nathanson's book offers two more lenses. 1) A long struggle with the structure of the city's government, and 2) real estate redevelopment of the riverfront and downtown. I'd have to reread the book to say anything more. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Racial conflict

Latest comment: 3 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion

The section Culture > Racial conflict had four sources, all from 2020 thanks very much to User:JadeMont6082. I ordered Tom Weber's book that will be here soon. Of the other three, I very much liked Bloomberg CityLab and pulled out two attributable ideas, one each from Dr. Green and Dr. Delegard. Does anyone have other ideas? Either for this section, or for the brief mention of racial covenants, anti-Semitism, Plymouth Avenue in 1966–1967, and George Floyd under HIstory > Social tensions, or under Government > Police. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:54, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if the Culture > Racial conflict section is really necessary. All of the police violence and protests are covered elsewhere in the article pretty thoroughly, and thus far, this section only contains the paraphrased opinions of two local academics. Their views aren't shown in full context, so they sound strange to read, "William D. Green of Augsburg University said that in Minneapolis the races live in parallel universes." If there has to be a whole section on racial conflict, it should contain less opinion and more detail into recent events surrounding the George Floyd protests and other similar events throughout history, all of which seem to be covered already elsewhere as previously mentioned. Also, other major cities with recent police brutality and racism issues do not have a section titled "Racial Conflicts", i.e Los Angeles, New York, Columbus, etc. It makes Minneapolis look especially bad simply because of its place in our recent public consciousness. JorikThePooh (talk) 05:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
In 2020 Minneapolis has drawn more national & international attention re racial conflict than any other city and that makes it notable. The degree of racial intensity has not been matched since the 1960s. The text is using several reports from experts. Published articles by Experts don't have "opinions" they offer their in-depth expertise unlike the one-sentence answers to a Gallup opinion poll. That is the type of quality material Wikipedia depends upon. Erasing it violated NPOV rules (if you disagree with reliable sources, you ADD your own contrary sources, if you have any.) Rjensen (talk) 04:22, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Welcome @SpeedMcCool: Your edit summary reads:

"While I have no concerns with the content of this edit, I am puzzled by its inclusion in the head of the article. Are not all American cities struggling with social racism? Is the structural racism inMinneapolis so unique as to warrant a lengthy paragraph in the lead section? Perhaps this extended blurb belongs in a new category of the article." Yes, Minneapolis is at the forefront of structural racism. Read what Rjensen wrote above. Just because you happen to be puzzled means we wiped that history out of the lead. We've been asked to expand the lead by SandyGeorgia who wrote above: "The lead is short (not a thorough summary) and could benefit from a copyedit. It emphasizes cultural aspects, while leaving out some others." (--SandyGeorgia, 29 March). I am happy to work with you to compromise on a smaller paragraph. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:54, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate your reply, but I will have to disagree with some of your statement. While I understand that Minneapolis has become a center of a new wave of racial justice movements, I think it is difficult to argue that Minneapolis is so much more racially segregated than other northern cities as to warrant a list of ways that the city has struggled with racism in the past and today. In this respect, I would revise your statement that "Minneapolis is at the forefront of structural racism" to "In 2020, the murder of George Floyd put Minneapolis at the center of a new movement for racial justice. Experts have suggested that this is due to longstanding racial disparities in the city."
SandyGeorgia's comment does not specifically call for a paragraph in the lead discussing racial disparities. While I believe that would be appropriate content for the lead, I also believe the lead is missing other information about the city that is more special to the city. For example, Minneapolis has the nation's largest Somali population and is notably the site of the murder of George Floyd. In my opinion, these notes would provide better context for the city of Minneapolis than a discussion of historic and pervasive racism, a struggle which most American cities (and the whole nation) have.
Let me know what you think. SpeedMcCool (talk) 00:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Excellent ideas. Maybe we can hold off mentioning George Floyd until after Chauvin's appeals and sentencing are done. I don't have a source for Somalis being the most in the nation but there probably is one. Both do belong in the lead. However I disagree that because everybody struggles with something, nobody should mention it up front. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@SusanLesch, I am happy to see that we agree on mentioning George Floyd/Somali immigration and other important topics in the lead.
On your point as to how the lead should mention things that every city struggles with, I believe the guidelines disagree with you. Per the guidelines, the lead should discuss what makes a city "notable" or "unusual." In my opinion, discussing that an American city has a history of racism would be like discussing whether a car has a steering wheel - that is, it's only notable when it's absent. In my opinion, a history of racism is not notable or unusual for almost all American cities; in fact, I would say that structural racism is as American as apple pie. Minneapolis's especially wide disparities are notable; in my opinion, the city's history of disparities is not.
I like that you placed the content in the 'racial conflicts' section. It belongs in the article.
Let's continue to discuss how to improve the lead. SpeedMcCool (talk) 00:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Don't wait for me. I'm in school and too busy now. Good luck. Maybe you can find a source for the Somalis. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:00, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Dakota history

Latest comment: 3 years ago18 comments3 people in discussion

@Rjensen: you changed: The US reneged on the treaties during the Civil War, resulting in hunger, war, internment, and exile of the Dakota from Minnesota. to The Dakota were removed after massacring settlers in the Dakota War of 1862. We had two RFCs in the past year surrounding Dakota history. I invited your input but you didn't write anything. First, the war didn't take place in Minneapolis. Second, you've written from a strange point of view. Do you mind my revert to the previous version? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

the old version was unsourced. my version reflects the latest scholarship: Anderson, Massacre in Minnesota: The Dakota War of 1862, the Most Violent Ethnic Conflict in American History (2019) which reviewers are calling definitive. Rjensen (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Generally, may I suggest we avoid passive voice where possible and give page numbers and an ISBN when citing a book? I found nothing in your edit that the three pages I used for citations don't cover. And they do deal with the matter of the US reneging on its treaties which is a cause of the rest (hunger, the war, internment and exile). Also your sentence appears to blame the Dakota people for what happened. Word for word the original covers more ground. Further, a small link (to the word "war") seems preferable that drawing attention to "the Dakota War of 1862". Perhaps you would add your book to Further reading? -SusanLesch (talk) 01:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
I see it already in Further reading on Dakota War of 1862. Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 01:19, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
@Rjensen: Can you please explain why you blame the Dakota people and omitted that the US dishonored its treaties? Maybe that's what Dr. Anderson decided? I will order his new book but expect to be surprised if that's what he said. I bet every source I have agrees in some sense that Minneapolitans are living on occupied Dakota land. But it is dangerous to stay inside a bubble if it is one. I'm remembering liking Justice Gorsuch for the first time when he decided on indigenous owners for half of Oklahoma. No hurry, I'm just curious. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I was following the latest scholarship. The US did not disown the treaties. It continued the payments (albeit some were late, and most of the $ went to debts the Dakota had built up with traders.) The Dakota massacred hundreds of German farmers to start the episode, which was a very poor bargaining tactic. They were egged on by Copperheads who said Union forces were losing the civil war to Confederacy and now was the time to restore control over lost lands. None of this has much to do with Minneapolis except that the Dakota got removed from the area. I used North Country: The Making of Minnesota by Mary Lethert Wingerd (2010) and especially Massacre in Minnesota: The Dakota War of 1862, the Most Violent Ethnic Conflict in American History by Gary Clayton Anderson (2019). What sources are you using?? Rjensen (talk) 18:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I rely on the Minnesota Historical Society war anniversary website[1] and William Lass at Mankato State, who spares nobody, calling the Indians who killed four settlers, miscreants on p. 129.[2] Based on the sources used in this article, I still disagree with your point of view, but I was able to order Dr. Anderson's book from Birchbark Books so maybe you'll give me a few months.
  1. Wingerd says on p. 331, All treaties were abrogated. all annuities canceled, the funds to be used for reparations to white victims of the late war.[3] She would seem to diverge from your estimation right there. Elsewhere, on p. 139, she has a dim view of trading debt.
  2. Weber says on p. 8, This helps explain the pain and trauma caused later, when European Americans took the land...[4] Weber, who I am reading now, makes a sad point that the Dakota were held in a Fort Snelling concentration camp within view of Bdote, their most sacred spot on earth. I don't think we ought to skip over that camp.
  3. Iric Nathanson takes no position.[5]
  4. William Lass says on p. 134, ...with congressional abrogation of the Dakota treaties and the abolition of the Minnesota River reservations, they lost the last of their homeland.[2]
  5. Lass on p. 135 says historians, ...overlooked the causes of the Indian discontent, gradually accepting that the Indians—even though some of them were the aggressors—were driven to war.[2]
Rjensen, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:04, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "The US–Dakota War of 1862". Minnesota Historical Society. Retrieved January 19, 2021.
  2. ^ a b c Lass, William E. (2000). Minnesota: A History (2 ed.). Norton. ISBN 978-0-393-31971-2.
  3. ^ Wingerd, Mary Lethert (2010). North Country: The Making of Minnesota. University of Minnesota Press. ISBN 978-0816648689.
  4. ^ Weber, Tom (2020). Minneapolis: An Urban Biography. Saint Paul, MN: Minnesota Historical Society Press. ISBN 978-1681341613.
  5. ^ Nathanson, Iric (2010). Minneapolis In the Twentieth Century: The Growth of an American City. Minnesota Historical Society Press. ISBN 978-0-87351-725-6.
Wingerd p 331 = abrogation of treaties took place AFTER the war ended. The text I changed said abrogation was a cause of the events of 1862. Wingerd: "In March 1863 the Senate had passed “An Act for the Removal of the Sissetons, Wahpaton, Medawakanton, and Wahpakoota Bands of Sioux or Dakota Indians, and for the Disposition of their Lands in Minnesota and Dakota.” All treaties were unilaterally abrogated, all annuities canceled, the funds to be used for reparations to white victims of the late war. The Indians were to be transported to some as yet unnamed destination outside Minnesota." Rjensen (talk) 21:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
PS Bill Lass and I also worked at the Newberry Library back in the 1970s. His state history links the Dakota War to St Paul businessmen (who did not want the Dakota tribes moved out of Minnesota), and does not mention Minneapolis in terms of the Dakota War. Rjensen (talk) 22:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh yes, thank you! My mistake is coming clear. Maybe Elkman can fix that, or it will probably be a few months until I can. Wonderful that you and Dr. Lass were coworkers. Still disagree that you can change the trajectory of US-Dakota relations in one edit and call it a tweak. Very glad that I asked for your help. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
I've had time to read the reviews of Dr. Anderson's book, and am part way done reading him. No way could this edit have stayed here. But I appreciate the citation and will put it to good use. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Rjensen: Also here is former governor Mark Dayton's statement of 2012 (seven years before this book was published) that repudiated Alexander Ramsey's position. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC) P.S. Here also is the Pioneer Press on renaming Henry Sibley High School. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:43, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Rjensen: Section partly rewritten, relying on your source. Thank you again for including it. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Welcome @SpeedMcCool: Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline tells us we have 10 paragraphs to cover the city's history. Your edit moved us to 14. Would you mind please restoring the Dakota history section to a single paragraph?

Also would you please restore the phrase "in a succession of treaties negotiated by corrupt officials."? It took many months of Wiki-negotiations just to write that sentence. The source is considered the best we have. Anderson uses the word "thieves" on page x. (Google Books might or might not show you a citation here.) Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@SusanLesch, thanks for the opportunity to discuss my edit.
With regard to 14 paragraphs vs. 10, I do not believe my edit moves the page outside of guidelines. Specifically, the guideline says "While there is no strict rule on how long a section may be, as a general rule of thumb, more than 10 paragraphs or the use of subsection headings might indicate that it should be accompanied by a History of _ main article." In my view, this guideline should not be interpreted as discouraging more than 10 paragraphs, but as a rule of thumb for when one should begin cutting and start a new page entirely. The amount of content is the same between the original and my edit, I have simply divided the content into more paragraphs for the sake of readability.
As for the note on "in a succession of treaties negotiated by corrupt officials," I cannot read the word "corrupt" and see that as unbiased. If it is a direct quote from an expert, then it should be quoted. If not, I do not believe the term "corrupt" comes without a biased connotation. If Anderson specifically refers to the white officials as "thieves," then that word should be used instead, perhaps as put in the following suggestion:
"in a succession of treaties negotiated by officials that have since been characterized as 'thievery.'"
I want to be clear that I have no intention of defending the actions of early white settlers, I just want to ensure that the article reads as unbiased.
Let me know what you think. SpeedMcCool (talk) 00:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Phrase restored. Read the citation which supports it. Or try Google Books again. Also, please know we have had two people object to too many paragraphs in the History section. Both cited US City guidelines. I'm not impressed with your skirting them. Our section headings are too much, and too many paragraphs is more too much. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@SusanLesch, your citation does provide a source for the term "corrupt officials," but I maintain that this phrase, left without quotation marks, reads as the biased opinion of editors and not an expert opinion. Most readers will not dig through sources to see that this phrase is backed up by expert testimony; instead, they will read it as the bias of a single editor. This phrase should be put in quotations if it's a quote (which it seems to be.)
As for the length of the history section, I cannot find the previous discussions you seem to be referencing. Regardless, this does not preclude the fact that the guidelines do not strictly limit the length of the section. 10 paragraphs is a rule of thumb, not a limit. The guidelines are clearly intended to limit history sections from becoming summative assessments of a city's entire story, not to limit editors to exactly 10 paragraphs; otherwise, one could well write 10 massive paragraphs to circumvent the guideline entirely.
My edit to the history dig not add any content, simply broke it up for the sake of readability and flow. If my edit made the section too long, then the section needs content cut from it, as it is otherwise unwieldy and choppy.
I hope we can come to a productive conclusion on this. SpeedMcCool (talk) 00:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Don't see how we can reach a productive conclusion if only your view is acceptable. I really dislike the spacey effect. It reminds me of Dick and Jane books and blogs. The last guy who tried that I think just wanted his religion to begin a paragraph. Your way is easy to read but it doesn't convince me when all the factors are weighed. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:11, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Help fixing old refs

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hi. We have a request to clean up old links to the Internet Archive per WP:LINKROT. Your help would be great. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Why has the article's lead section been made so short?

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Ever since this page has started being redesigned, I guess because of some featured article review, it has BY FAR the smallest lead section of any major American city's Wikipedia article. Look at New York City, Chicago, Cleveland, Nashville. Even Worcester, Massachusetts has a larger one now. Why??? Is this somehow considered ideal? The article now looks woefully sparse compared to basically any other American city Wikipedia article, and it makes the edit about George Floyd (which seems to me to be highlighted only as a result of recency bias) stick out like a sore thumb. Please, can someone explain the decisions to make the article look the way it does now? 67.220.6.236 (talk) 03:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Greetings, IP. Right now the lead is longer than when the article was promoted to FA. I think SandyGeorgia asked us to expand the lead during her recent review. A paragraph I wrote was vetted before adding but it didn't last. So why don't you write a paragraph? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

George Floyd

Latest comment: 3 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Should the comments on George Floyd be in its own section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anastacio21 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 21 April 2021 (UTC) Anastacio21 (talk) 20:06, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

We now have content related to George Floyd in three sections. It is undeniably important, but there is no need for three separate (and to some degree repetitious) discussions. Kablammo (talk) 12:59, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Kablammo, I undid the most recent addition. If you had something else in mind please holler. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Maybe you would edit the even more recent addition to the lead. I have no objection to its being there, only to innaccurate wording. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

We should not have George Floyd on the top of the page. It does not define the city the same way 9/11 doesn’t define New York City so much so that it’s on the top of the page Themightytouch (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Themightytouch, I disagree. There's nothing wrong with it. Also I just noticed that the assassination of Medgar Evers is at the top of Mississippi. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Introduction

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians. There has been consensus between some editors about editing the introduction to this article. The slight addition would read as follows:


Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ (About this soundlisten)) is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the seat of Hennepin County.[6] Minneapolis is located around Saint Anthony Falls on the Mississippi River. The city, once dubbed the "flour milling capital of the world", was the industrial center of the Upper Midwest from the 1880s until about the 1930s.[7] Despite a significant shift away from industrial activity, Minneapolis still remains Minnesota’s major economic and cultural center. The city has one of the nation's best park systems,[8] with thirteen lakes, wetlands, woodlands, creeks and waterfalls, many connected by parkways in the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway.

It has been sourced and approved by several other editors, but to come to a larger consensus please state any changes to the following statement. There has also been a strong consensus in the past about expanding the introduction and this is proposal to do so.

Thank you ~~Gooob

(User:SusanLesch)

User:Gooob, you wrote here six seconds before I did. There is no consensus for your version. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello user: SusanLesch! Any changes you have? I have talked with other editors to write this. Trying to get consensus here! ~~ Gooob (talk) 15:39, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

No. I much prefer the version we have. "Other editors" have not commented here. Please stop your disruptive editing. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Can we move the milling sentence (that is already written) to the top. Seems like a major part of Minneapolis. Trying to come to a comprise here. I appreciate your help making productive edits. Thank you ~~ Gooob (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2021 (UTC)


Hey, I usually edit political articles but got a notification about this and read through this convo and the editor’s edits and it seems like most of that editor’s edits look like undue weight to me so I would not add what they wrote at all. but I feel like there are two things they mentioned that could be worth to add based on reading this convo and edits so I added them to the article. I feel like this is a done convo.

I have left a note on the editor’s talk page to tell him about his unconstructive edits. ~~ V3393s (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Sudden interest

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Greetings. We have three new editors with a sudden interest in Minneapolis: User:JesseeV3, User:Gooob, User:Marshens. Frankly, this city has been through enough already. None of these editors even tried to reach consensus here on the talk page to make their changes. Inaccurate rewording of this long-standing article will be reverted. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:27, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello user:SusanLesch! I agree with your statements. I can not speak for the other editors you mentioned, but I have a place in the talk page consensus about an edit I have been think of! Please add changes if you have some! Thank you! ~~Gooob Gooob (talk) 15:30, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Another new editor User:V3393s seems to suddenly be interested. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I just make an edit and comment on a talk page discussion, gave a disruptive user a warning, because I have this page starred on my watchlist. Edit has been reversed. No need for further convo. V3393s (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Changes to the lead

Latest comment: 2 years ago12 comments5 people in discussion

Greetings User:Marshens. Can you please explain the objective of your edits to the lead? I do not understand what you are trying to accomplish. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

SusanLesch I am trying to make the lead more of a overview. See Atlanta as an example. The current lead starts off with a factoid about natural amenities, which is important but not an overview of the city\lead worthy. I combined a previously written lead that was more of an introduction (from 2019) and slightly rearranged what was already written (nothing new) to make a stronger lead. I feel like this rearranging was needed to make the article’s lead more of a lead. Hope that clarifies my objective. Marshens (talk) 00:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Marshens. Why would we want to copy Atlanta's lead for Minneapolis? (There are a number of good reasons why I disagree but would like to understand why you selected Atlanta.) Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:08, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I have Atlanta as a general example. Not an exact copy. It provides, more or less, a template for what makes a good lead. The Minneapolis lead must cover what the city is known for. Like its history. Atlanta’s lead covers what they city in known for, like it’s historic center for industry, which is very similar to Minneapolis. The current one for Minneapolis is more of a factoid than a chief and important fact. Marshens (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Marshens, I still don't know why you want to follow Atlanta. Wikipedia's article for Atlanta has been rated B-class and C-class. That's not good enough to justify changing the lead in this one, which is a Featured Article. Why don't you read up on WikiProject Cities, specifically the US Guideline at WP:USCITIES? I'm sorry but you haven't been able to explain your changes, and I'll continue to revert them because they don't follow the WikiProject guidelines that we're lucky to have. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I was not aware of that. Thank you for informing me. I added a very small clarification of where the confluence was. I believe what is there now is the best lead possible then. Thank you. Marshens (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Marshens, in their using Atlanta as an example, is referencing only the lede of the Atlanta article, not the entire work. They probably could have referenced a different, highly-rated article's lede. Surely, one can't be comparing the rating of the entire Atlanta article to a single, small portion of this article. 97.90.28.191 (talk) 04:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Possible change

While I think the current lead is fine, I've read through it a few times and thought of a potential alternative. I can see how "most populous city" might not be ideal to have in the first sentence. An alternative could be this: Minneapolis is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota. With a population of 429,954 as of 2020, it is the most populous city in the state and the 46th most populous in the nation. The seat of Hennepin County, Minneapolis lies on both banks of the Mississippi River, just north of its confluence with the Minnesota River, and adjoins Saint Paul, the state's capital.

I would also consider moving the current third paragraph (Seven counties encompassing... to be the second; this way, the general information about the greater metro area wouldn't interrupt two more city-specific paragraphs; the one about the water features and history and the one about the music and arts scenes. This could, however, put undue weight on non-Minneapolis-specific information, so I'm not certain if it would be better or worse. --Sable232 (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Sable232, I like the direction of proposed edit you made. I do not think moving metro paragraph up help clarity. I would keep where it is. Here are my adjustment to your edit, Minneapolis is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota. Minneapolis lies on rolling, lake covered terrain on both banks of the Mississippi River. The city is just north of the river's confluence with the Minnesota River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state's capital. The seat of Hennepin County, Minneapolis is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the 46th most populous city in the US.

Please edit the above with what you think best. What there now can always stay. Danyess (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

We used to have something like Sable232's suggestion, and I would support that. Sorry, I like the sound of yours, Danyess, but can't agree with your view of the terrain. "Rolling" doesn't apply to a virtually flat city. Better to stick to the facts. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:35, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
SusanLesch and Sable232, I do strong support Sable232’s changes. I add it in the article now. Thanks, Danyess (talk) 02:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Danyess, in the future, please do not make a change while discussion is underway. --Sable232 (talk) 22:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Flags

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Greetings, Ealdgyth. Thank you for removing flags for sister cities. They did seem to be decorative. Could you please explain though why you made this edit? MOS:INFOBOXFLAG says: Human geographic articles – for example settlements and administrative subdivisions – may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes. This article is a human geographic article. What harm do the flag of the country and state do? -SusanLesch (talk) 03:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I would like to add to the page the logo of Minneapolis, which is much more often seen here in Minneapolis than its flag, for example on public signs or on official paper. The logo is the two schematic sale boats, one solid white, one solid dark blue, both with dark blue outlines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.153.19.114 (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

207.153.19.114, yes. The logo is more familiar. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Additions

Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments1 person in discussion

Hi, a few things missing from this article. Maybe someone will pitch in?

  • Owamni is open   Done
  • Herbivorous Butcher, vegan butchershop   Done
  • tunnel collapse at St. Anthony Falls in 1869

Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Where should the Hennepin History Museum go? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)   Done

More problems:

  • the number of charter schools (review sources for Education: Primary and secondary)
  • police section, saying 500 shootings twice is redundant   Done -SusanLesch (talk) 19:51, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
  • in the Government section, we still say weak mayor   Done
  • Demographics has a failed verification flag
  • in Annual events, MayDay needs clarification

-SusanLesch (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Photo for historical section?

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

There is no photo in the historical section, which includes the building of Ft. Snelling. It's a large section and IMO could use one, perhaps this one:

 
Fort Snelling 1844-Af000248

I find it interesting that there appears to be a wigwam frame in the foreground. I know that a lot of work went into this article and more than likely the editors here are well aware of all the photos that depict early history of the city, but I thought I would just put this out anyway and see if there was any interest. Sectionworker (talk) 10:20, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

That's not Minneapolis. Jonathunder (talk) 02:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
From my understanding, historicaly Ft. Snelling was considered to cover both sides of the river and the names of Mpls. and St. Paul came some years later. In fact, at one point when the men were getting sick they were housed across the river at Coldwater Spring just down from Minneapolis Falls where fresh water was available. Sectionworker (talk) 09:23, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

Latest comment: 2 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

Hi, Bneu2013. Can you please explain your recent edit to "condense table and change terminology"? When I look at the source, the US Census Bureau, under P1 RACE, we're given only numbers (no percents). Manually, 255,704 / 429,954 = 0.59472408676277 or 59.5 percent white. So why did you change that to 58% white? And why did you change the historical figures without changing the source? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Why is this table different? 249,581 white alone. [16] Same total population. CTF83! 17:13, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
I changed it to include the non-Hispanic white population only. That is what most reliable sources refer to. The 2020 census resulted in some methodology changes, and as a result the Census Bureau has advised against directly comparing results to that of previous censuses. There seems to be a weak consensus to present the data differently. Bneu2013 (talk) 19:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
 
Wilbur Ross
@Bneu2013:, that's great. Thank you for the information. Can you please give us citations for every number you changed? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Fixed. Modified the source for the 2020 data, and reused for 2010 data. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@Bneu2013: I'm sorry if my eyes are deceiving me but I think you changed numbers all the way back to 1950. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@SusanLesch: - I only removed the White (total) figures for all years. I didn't change any categories between 1950 and 2000, as there is no statistical difference between the non-Hispanic and total populations for those figures until 2010, rounded to the nearest tenth. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you again, Bneu2013. I guess my complaints should go to Mr. Ross. I can barely believe it, "the Census Bureau has advised against directly comparing results to that of previous censuses." -SusanLesch (talk) 16:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Racial facts

Latest comment: 2 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

Below are some racial facts which may belong in the article (I think they do) or at least in the See also section:

Do you have a source? Hmong are mentioned in Demographics but we'd need a source to expand that. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:53, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Demographics says "As of 2019, more than 20,000 Somalis call the city home." sourced to the US Census Bureau. Can you please provide a source for your ask? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
We cover AIM here. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, good on AIM. For the other two I used only our articles for research. I know that bringing that sort of information up to date in a news article is unlikely. Certainly I trust your judgement as you have just finished putting many hours of work into this article, but if those facts are correct, in the US and in the world, it seems they could use a sentence as was done for AIM. Sectionworker (talk) 19:10, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
No deal. Per WP:NOTSOURCE, we need sources before including these. Why don't you find sources and add them? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:13, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Oh please, I wasn't trying to make a "deal". I am well aware that we do not use WP for RS and you don't need to remind me of something so obvious. I will read our articles for starters and see where that takes me. Sectionworker (talk) 18:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
This is from the lead of Hmung people: "The 2010 U.S. Census stated there were 66,000 ethnic Hmong in Minneapolis-St. Paul, giving it the largest urban Hmong population in the world." The Pioneer Press is the source. Sectionworker
The International Institute of Minnesota says:"There may be as many as 35,760 to 150,000 Somalis living in Minnesota with 80% residing in Minneapolis, likely the highest concentration of Somalis in the U.S. The majority of Somalis live in the Cedar Riverside, Phillips, and Elliot Park neighborhoods of South Minneapolis. Increasingly, Somali families can be found moving to Metro area suburban communities — Eden Prairie has close to 100 Somali families — and rural Minnesota.(Last updated January 2017)" [[17]]Sectionworker (talk) 22:15, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Photo of restaurant kitchen

Latest comment: 2 years ago16 comments6 people in discussion
 

User:SusanLesch has re-inserted this photo--which SusanLesch photographed last summer--showing the backs of two cooks preparing food in the kitchen of a non-notable Minneapolis restaurant. A consensus of editors at MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE have agreed that "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding." This article is about a city in the mid-western United States, so I'm not sure how a photo of a restaurant kitchen is "significant and relevant". The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:15, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I see it differently: Two cooks at a kitchen of a non-notable Minneapolis restaurant is what makes this photo notable. Some editors must begin to realize that their own eyes may see photos differently than another person's eyes. Besides, if one were to run down looking at how relevant each photo was plenty of others would need to be thrown out as well--a bunch of guys playing hockey-how does that inform us? AFAIK everyone knows how that looks. Sectionworker (talk) 14:49, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Well spotted, Sectionworker. Maybe Magnolia objects because I took the photo. The guys playing hockey are indeed a lot less informative. I found one image that would be perfect for Wikipedia. Unfortunately it is difficult to get in the door, let alone at the perfect time to make a picture. That one picture out of dozens of reviews of this restaurant should be credited to Stephen Maturen for the Chicago Tribune. Perfect job! -SusanLesch (talk) 18:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Magnolia677, I'm sorry but you are out of touch. Here is the Chicago Tribune's estimation of what you call "a non-notable Minneapolis restaurant." Both are servers, not cooks, and their shirts introduce some difficult Dakota words explained in the caption. The chef is at far right, as the caption says.

The restaurant is Owamni by The Sioux Chef. It’s one of the most stunning destination restaurants in the world right now. I say this as not only a critic, but a chef who staged and dined at El Bulli in Spain when it ranked as the best restaurant in the world.

And the world is taking note. The New York Times named Owamni to its list of the best 50 restaurants in America in October, applauding efforts to “revitalize Indigenous cuisine and decolonize American cooking.” Vogue declared it a “must-visit dining destination.”

-SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC) (edited)
@SusanLesch: Regarding the two newspapers you mentioned, if you look at the Wikipedia article for Chicago, there is just one photo of a restaurant, showing men lined up outside a soup kitchen during the Depression. At New York City, there is also just one photo of a restaurant--the Stonewall Inn--which is a National Monument, and the photo is of people outside the front. Both these photos are an "important illustrative aid to understanding" those cities, and they are "significant and relevant" to content within the article. Moreover, the photo of the Stonewall Inn is not of the backs of two employees picking up food from the kitchen. There are many great restaurants in the United States, and high-quality photographs of some of them would likely improve reader's understanding of the city, but Wikipedia is not a travel guide or a promo for "must-visit dining destinations". Magnolia677 (talk) 18:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
I agree the photo should be removed. It's not very illustrative of much, and accordingly, it has to have a long caption that adds a lot of information that is not elsewhere in the article and does not give context to the photo. MB 20:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
That's a good idea, MB. The chef is there but the restaurant is left in the caption. My fault. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:22, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Magnolia677, I cite newspapers to establish notability, because you called Owamni non-notable, when the facts show you are wrong.
  • I'll have to disagree with most of your complaint. I agree WP:NOTGUIDE. We're not writing a travel guide. This Culture section is long. It fleshed out the Arts section that passed FA review. WP:USCITIES recommends "Arts and culture" be divided into "several sections" and asks for two specifically including Tourism. On reflection, I think that among FAs for US cities (Chicago and NYC are B-class), the Boston#Culture section should be improved.
  • Owamni resurrects indigenous culture and gently provides insight into Minneapolis. Cutting it out as you did puts a giant hole in this article. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:22, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@SusanLesch: "Owamni resurrects indigenous culture"...sure, the same way Ponderosa Steak House resurrects the old west. Take a look at Owamni's menu. Are the smoked oysters fished from the Mississippi River using traditional indigenous methods, or are they flown in from the coast each morning just like every other restaurant in North America? And that better be a traditional "Dakota-style" ice cream sandwich on the menu. Every restaurant in the country has a gimmick, and Owamni seems to have found a winner. Please leave this promotional cruft out of the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:51, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
+:::::As a photo of a typical restaurant kitchen, it seems to me that it could be useful. Most of us don't get into restaurant kitchens often. I would ignore the writing on the shirts, though, other than typical shirt writing. It would seem appropriate for an article on restaurants or industrial kitchens (often very different from home kitchens). It doesn't seem so useful for an article on a city, though. Gah4 (talk) 22:19, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Gosh, I looked at the menu and I would have thought that Magnolia was arguing the opposite of what s/he is. BTW, oysters are salt water products and oyster mushrooms do grow in Minnesota. Sectionworker (talk) 22:35, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Pause for mercy. Magnolia677 has a chance to correct himself and apologize. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The oyster mushroom. My mistake. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:29, 15 February 2022 (UTC).
Susan has more mercy than I do. I expect other editors to use good faith rather than make sarcastic comments and attempts to show how their own wisdom far exceeds that of the others here. This editor needs to reverse their delete until this mess is cleared up. Sectionworker (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
The image should not be included. It scarcely depicts anything - a seemingly nondescript kitchen, with most of the "action" being blocked by two people with their backs turned. The only things really being depicted are the hashtags on the back of the subjects' shirts, which have no relevance to the article text. --Sable232 (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Black and White

Latest comment: 2 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Hi Magnolia677. First a correction. Your edit summary is a bizarrely inaccurate reading of the rule you cite: "copyedit + capitalization should be consistent among races, per MOS:PEOPLANG". MOS:PEOPLANG really says: Ethno-racial "color labels" may be given capitalized (Black and White) or lower-case (black and white). There is no consensus either for or against using mixed case (Black and white). a statement that is followed by a lengthy explanatory note. Second, if that's the way you want it to read, would you please change every occurrence of white to White? This article can choose one and stick with it. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

It also says, "The capitalized form will be more appropriate in the company of other upper-case terms of this sort". Magnolia677 (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Right under "no consensus" for either or mixed case. I made the change. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:12, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@SusanLesch: I missed one. Thank you for changing it. You are welcome to change all text saying "White" back to "white" if you feel it will improve the article. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Resolved with idea from User:MB to incorporate caption into prose. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:28, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Owamni continued

Latest comment: 2 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion
@SusanLesch: You added, "Sherman and Dana Thompson in 2021 opened Owamni by The Sioux Chef, overlooking Saint Anthony Falls (Dakota: Owámniyomni, to reanimate Native American cuisine and decolonize indigenous food." What makes this restaurant--which has been in business for just one year--notable enough to be included in the article? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Sherman and Thompson worked for five years to open; they've been in the news more than a year. They built a miracle. Regarding WP:GNG:

For 2021:

For 2022:

Star Tribune's Jon Cheng: "The Minneapolis restaurant is garnering international attention, but to call it the "hot new" restaurant is a disservice. ⋆⋆⋆ ½ " -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: May I ask why you would translate the name of a local restaurant into another language? Also, what does "decolonized" food mean? Magnolia677 (talk) 19:42, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Please excuse me if I stop answering questions now. Google has a lot more information than I do if you're interested. I don't understand "translate the name of a local restaurant into another language." I made a typo (missing close parens, now fixed). Zagat says decolonized food is "dishes made without refined sugar, wheat flour, dairy, beef, chicken, and pork." -SusanLesch (talk) 20:25, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
@Magnolia677: As best as I can tell this disputed copy was present in the article when it was awarded the FA rating, is that correct? I note that Susan has supplied even more evidence to support her information. Can I assume that you had already done research and were aware of what she supplied but did not find it adequate? What research other than this and the menu did you do? Thanks. Sectionworker (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
The 2007 FA reviewed version is found linked from "Article milestones" found at the top of the talk page. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:44, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I will spit right out what my feelings are on edits to FA articles. I have a big problem with editors that come along and make changes to FA articles without presenting a well-thought out reason with good RS to back it up on the talk page. However, this editor has not replied to my earlier note so I can only assume that they did not do any research at all. I've never been involved in a FA article because I have the brains to know that I'm not that good. But I also have the brains to know that when editors such as SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) are involved you can be certain that the article had a good going-over. But if something is found it needs to show that the editor has done some research around what they are bringing up. Sectionworker (talk) 00:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
The restaurant text looks fine to me. There are, though, some indications that Magnolia677 misunderstands various aspects of Wikipedia editing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: Please detail the misunderstandings regarding this article. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:54, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
I didn't mention "this article"; Wikipedia:Five pillars is what I had in mind overall. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:56, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Lead

Latest comment: 2 years ago14 comments2 people in discussion

I have not re-examined the entire article, but the lead needs a rewrite. While dedicating an entire paragraph to the counties surrounding the Twin Cities area (off-topic), it does not cover all of the most important aspects of the article/city. It focuses on the arts, Floyd, population, and gives us nothing on other aspects like economy, demographics, geography, education, government, climate, etc. I don't know what "perserved its financial clout" means, or how that is cited in the article. A list of artists in the lead is name dropping of limited significance for the lead. Too much art, one sentence on Chavin suffices, and the rest needs to be better rounded out. @SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sandy Georgia: I agree with your thoughts on the lead! I have rewritten the lead down below to be more encompassing. Please let me know your thoughts on this, edit it as you wish, and put it into the article once you feel it is worthy. Here are some reliable sources links I think would be helpful when crafting a new lead: www.mnhs.org/millcity/learn/history/minneapolis-riverfront, www.mentalfloss.com/article/70549/25-things-you-should-know-about-minneapolis-and-st-paul, and www.exploreminnesota.com/minneapolis-st-paul-area. I greatly appreciate your help in making this new lead. Marshens (talk) 19:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead Draft:

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ⓘ) is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota. Abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks and waterfalls, Minneapolis became a marketplace for timber and the flour milling capital of the world.[1]. The county seat of Hennepin County, Minneapolis lies along both banks of the Mississippi River, just north of its confluence with the Minnesota River, and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. The city has a population of 429,954 as of 2020, it is the most populous city in the state and the 46th most populous in the United States.[2][3][4]

Known for its cold, snowy winters and humid summers, Minneapolis has one of the nation's best park systems.[5] Many of these parks are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. Several large corporations call Minneapolis home leading to the city and the region being regarded by some as the primary business center between Chicago and Seattle.

The city uses a mayor council government system. A majority of the city, as of the last 50 years, has been considered as a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party stronghold. Political leaders from both parties in Minneapolis have gone to hold various other major positions in government: such as Walter Mondale, Hubert Humphrey, and Arne Carlson. Jacob Frey (DFL) has been mayor since 2018.

Minneapolis is home to some renowned entertainment venues; including the Guthrie Theater and the First Avenue nightclub. It also has a robust library system, several universities, and the stadiums of some professional sports teams.

In May 2020, the murder of George Floyd, a Black man, by Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department, occurred in the city. It resulted in global protests and put Minneapolis and racism in the national and international spotlights. '

References

  1. ^ "Minneapolis Flour Milling Boom". Minnesota Historical Society. Retrieved January 14, 2021.
  2. ^ "U.S. Census Bureau". U.S. Census Bureau. August 12, 2021. Retrieved August 13, 2021.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  3. ^ "Key Findings". MN State Demographic Center. and "NACo County Explorer: Hennepin County, MN". National Association of Counties. Retrieved December 21, 2020.
  4. ^ Chamberlain, Logan (January 10, 2022). "Top 50 Cities in the U.S. by Population and Rank". Infoplease (Sandbox). Retrieved February 6, 2022.
  5. ^ "2020 ParkScore Index". The Trust for Public Land. Retrieved May 20, 2020.
Per a thoughtful conversation with SandyGeorgia over at their talk page, a few grammatical and minor organizational changes (among other minor adjustments) will be made to the above draft. Then, once SandyGeorgia deems it as now fully ready, it will be officially inserted into the article. -- Marshens (talk) 20:30, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Catching up here now. The weight in the lead is off, and it isn't a summary of the article. It's also name dropping individuals indiscriminately. I haven't checked, but if (as Marshens says) everything in the draft above is already in the article, and cited in the article (so that the cites don't have to be repeated in the lead), then I suggest tightening the prose, and expanding the scope of the lead. The George Floyd paragraph sentences are not tight; I cleaned them up without changing any meaning or losing any content or context. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead draft 2

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ⓘ) is the largest city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. Abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks and waterfalls, Minneapolis had its origins in timber and as the flour milling capital of the world. It adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital. With 429,954 inhabitants as of 2020, it is the 46th most populous city in the nation. Prior to European contact, the Dakota Sioux were the region's sole residents; French explorers arrived in the region in 1680 and were followed by other European-American settlers. The construction of Fort Snelling in 1819 spurred growth in Saint Anthony Falls; Minneapolis incorporated in 1867 and joined with St. Anthony in 1872.

Minneapolis is a cultural and economic center of the north central region of the United States. Five Fortune 500 corporations are headquartered in the city, which is the second largest economic center in the Midwest. Minneapolis is home to the renowned Guthrie Theater, as well as the First Avenue nightclub, the Minneapolis Institute of Art, the Walker Art Center and the Minnesota Orchestra. The city hosts four professional sports teams. Minneapolis has one of the nation's best park systems, many of which are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. It has cold, snowy winters and humid summers.

The main campus of the University of Minnesota is in the city along with other institutions of higher learning. Two light rail lines and one commuter rail line connect downtown and the University with St. Paul, the Mall of America and Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport in Bloomington, and several other suburbs. Minneapolis has eight hospitals, four ranked among America's best: Abbott Northwestern Hospital, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Medical Center, and University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital.

Minneapolis is a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold. The city uses a mayor council government system. Jacob Frey (DFL) has been mayor since 2018. The May 2020 murder of George Floyd, a Black man, by Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department in the city sparked global protests and put Minneapolis and racism in the national and international spotlights.

SandyGeorgia, thank you for such a well-written second draft of the lead. I have done some combing through talk page archives and countless previous versions of this article dating back to 2009 for some further inspiration and guidance. There are just some things in your lead that were done in the past, but eventually thrown out in consensus by our "editing forefathers". Needlesstosay, I really love your draft and think it is extremely close to being perfect. Once you or any other editors who wish to speak have had an opportunity to make any last edits to this, I will put this into the article as we have discussed. Much appreciated -- Marshens (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead Draft 3

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ⓘ) is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. Abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks and waterfalls, Minneapolis had its origins in timber and as the flour milling capital of the world. It lies along both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. The city, inhabited by the Dakota Sioux prior to settlement, got its start due to the construction of Fort Snelling in 1819 spurring growth along Saint Anthony Falls. With 429,954 inhabitants as of 2020, Minneapolis is the most populous city in the state and the 46th most populous city in the nation.

Minneapolis has one of the nation's best park systems, and many of these park are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. Biking and walking trails, some of which follow old railroad lines, run through many parts of the city, such as the historic mill district by Saint Anthony Falls and around the lakes of the Lowry Hill area. Minneapolis has cold, snowy winters and humid summers. Several large corporations have their main headquarters in Minneapolis. The city is home to the Guthrie Theater as well as the First Avenue nightclub. The city is also the host to four professional sports teams.

The main campus of the University of Minnesota is in the city limits along with other institutions of higher learning. The downtown area of Minneapolis is served by a light rail system. Minneapolis has some highly rated hospitals.

Minneapolis has been a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold for 50 years. The city uses a mayor council government system. Jacob Frey (DFL) has been mayor since 2018. The May 2020 murder of George Floyd, a Black man, by Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department in the city sparked global protests and put Minneapolis and racism in the national and international spotlights.

  • Grammar problem: It has cold, snowy winters and humid summers. The word It refers back to either Saint Anthony Falls, or Lowry Hill, which I don't think is what is meant.
  • There are more than "a few other institutions of higher learning"; the sentence works with omission of "a few".
  • Minneapolis also has some of the best hospitals in the country, won't work. It has several hospitals that are highly rated, or rated among the best. The change in wording from my version to yours is small, but the difference is big. Maybe you can say "several highly rated hospitals"? Or else, go back to the wording that is cited in the article. Or the wording I had. Minneapolis does not have a top-rated hospital; we have to take care with "best". Top 20, no Minneapolis.
  • Minneapolis, as of the last 50 years, has been a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold. Still awkward. --> Minneapolis has been a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold for 50 years ... maybe ?
  • I think it a mistake to drop the wording I had about transit, since pretty much The Whole World thinks the Mall of America is in Minneapolis, and the transit wording lets you subtly mention that it's not. Not fussed though.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:58, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia: Thank you for your advice. The changes you have suggested have been implemented. I did not, however, add back in about Mall of America. A former editor wrote in 2011 that adding Mall of America does not make sense due to its non-existent impact on the culture and economy of the City of Minneapolis itself. I am going to defer to their view unless there is any groundbreaking new information. Does this in your opinion seem ready to add? Marshens (talk) 01:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  • It can't straddle both banks of the river; that's not proper English. It either straddles the river, as I wrote, or it "lies along both banks" as you wrote, but the problem with that, is most readers won't know what you mean by "both banks".
  • has its origins in timber --> had its origins.
  • Awkward construction, not grammatically sound, jumps from the Dakota to Snelling, gerunding rather than direct prose, suggest you go back to my version: Originally inhabited by the Dakota Sioux, the city got its start due to the construction of Fort Snelling in 1819 spurring growth along Saint Anthony Falls.
  • Another problem with what the it refers back to (my fault): With 429,954 inhabitants as of 2020, it is the largest in the state and the 46th most populous city in the nation. ... and ... largest what ?
  • Also is almost always redundant: see User:Tony1/How to improve your writing Minneapolis also has some highly rated hospitals such as Abbott Northwestern Hospital, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Medical Center, and University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital. --> Abbott Northwestern Hospital, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Medical Center, and University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital are the city's highly rated hospitals. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:35, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
    Or better, since the lead doesn't name the Universities and doesn't name the Fortune 500 businesses, why name the hospitals at all? Minneapolis has four highly rated hospitals; there's an inconsistency in naming them while naming nothing else. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:37, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia, your suggested edits have been made. Any final changes or is it ready to be added? -- Marshens (talk) 02:04, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
It seems a bit short, but serviceable. The article is over 8,000 words of prose; I'd expect a lead of about 400 words; this is 325. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Ok. I agree with you. I will add this into the article. Thanks for your help finishing this up. Marshens (talk) 02:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't consider it finished; it's too short, and you removed most of my suggestions. I would hate to see it chunked up again with the kind of name dropping and off-topic (about the entire metro area) that is in there now. You may find it wiser to get it right the first time, rather than rushing to put something in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for alerting me that I accidentally put in an earlier version. Once I have time, I will reinstate your edits. Even though this is not “final”, it is a great improvement and a perfect start. Thanks again for your help and hope to use your counsel again. Marshens (talk) 05:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

FA issues persist

Latest comment: 2 years ago10 comments2 people in discussion

The article is *much* improved from the notice I left over a year ago, but needs a thorough copyedit; perhaps WP:GOCE can be brought in. There are still maintenance tags. Redlining and covenants are mentioned in two different sections, and racial issues in about three sections; better overall organization is needed. There are some instances of unnecessarily loaded or off-topic language (for example, this is not Hubert Humphrey's article). Working with an experienced copyeditor (someone accustomed to working at the FA level) might help assure this article is at FA standards. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  • What secondary source has mentioned this? As of 2020, Minneapolis–St. Paul area is the second largest economic center in the Midwest, behind Chicago.[134] If none, this is original research and WP:UNDUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:50, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
    That was my attempt to cite claims that have been flying around for years (biggest between Chicago and Seattle for example). Many books just copy Wikipedia blindly (even a Springer book, for shame). I found a good source here though, if the claim can be reworded. Mr. Dahl is a public affairs economist at the Minneapolis Fed. He says of the northern tier of states, Minneapolis is the largest economic center between Milwaukee and the Pacific.[1] Also MinnPost says in 2010 Minneapolis was not quite there yet (not yet second to Chicago for second biggest economy in the Midwest). -SusanLesch (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Dahl, David S. (1988). "Minneapolis/St. Paul: an agricultural hub" (PDF). Rangelands Archives. 10 (3): 111–113. Retrieved March 7, 2022.

The article is vastly improved since my 2020 note, and is no longer in urgent need of a featured article review, but there are still pressing items that should be addressed. Unwatching; please ping me if my feedback is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Collage

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I'd recommend that the collage be converted into separate files per WP:COLLAGETIPS. The images might also be improved. Anyone want to take that on? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:31, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Welcome GOCE

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

At SandyGeorgia's suggestion, I made a request for copyediting at the Guild of Copy Editors. User:Baffle gab1978 has begun. We are awfully lucky to have them. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Removed text (c/e)

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

CC-BY-SA; I've remove the following text from the article; I'm leaving it here, with its refs, for future editors; see article history for full attribution. Baffle☿gab 04:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

From "Culture --> Music"

(removed because it's in the wrong article—this article is about Minneapolis, not the music director of an orchestra):

Vänskä's affinity for fellow Finn Jean Sibelius[1] was recognized by a Grammy nomination in 2013 for a recording of "Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 2 & 5," and the orchestra won a Grammy Award in 2014 for "Sibelius: Symphonies Nos 1 & 4."[2][3]

References

  1. ^ Ross, Jenna (January 6, 2022). "Osmo Vänskä returns to music he feels in 'the deepest possible way' — fellow Finn Jean Sibelius". Star Tribune. Retrieved January 6, 2022.
  2. ^ Espeland, Pamela (December 7, 2012). "Five Grammy nominations have Minneapolis ties; more holiday shows". MinnPost. Retrieved January 10, 2013.
  3. ^ Bream, Jon (January 27, 2014). "Minnesota Orchestra and Osmo Vänskä score a Grammy". Star Tribune. Retrieved March 14, 2014.
Cheers, Baffle☿gab 04:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Question

Latest comment: 2 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Greetings, User:Titi68999. Pardon the question but may I ask why you have a sudden interest in this article? I would like to make room for our guest from Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors. Those services are really rare. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. just trying to clean up one section about trails in the city. kept on not liking how I was rewriting the one half a sentence so apologies for the several edits. I have am done now. You are welcome to read it; it is the "many parts of the city; such as" part. I tried to keep out of the way for GOCE. so thankful for their diligent work. That is all I came here for! thank you for "gate keeping" this article. -- Titi68999 (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi both; thanks for your comments and confidence; I do do my best to make text as clear and concise as possible but I'm aware sometimes the results are a bit on the sterile side. As a non-US editor, I can also sometimes make mistakes with particular US-English terminology and grammar (although not as many as I used to), so I do appreciate corrections in these areas. Anyway, this article will take a few more sessions to complete so thanks for your patience. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 07:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Further to the above, note Titi68999 has been blocked as a sockpuppet account. @SusanLesch:, maybe look out for further socking on this article. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 06:59, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Baffle☿gab, you're doing great! I am offline today and will be back later this week. Yes, they were the 11th known sockpuppet from the same account. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:04, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
No worries; I'm glad you're aware of the socking. I've now finished my c/e. Good luck with the article and cheers, Baffle☿gab 02:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
  The Copyeditor's Barnstar
Thanks to Baffle☿gab for finishing our big project. Much obliged. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:51, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
Sock request

Looks like a lot of vandalism so it should be restored back a few days to the most recent version that is not vandalism. AncientCastle (talk) 19:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
To be more clear I want to restore the version on 19:47, 14 June 2022. It is the most recent non-vandal version. The one that is up is riddled with the vandal’s edits. Thank you. AncientCastle (talk) 19:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
I honestly don't see any vandalism between the two versions (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Minneapolis&diff=1094466116&oldid=1093135484). Rather the most recent version removed some vandalism in the section on Prince. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Evergreen, Your edits are helpful, I just think we should go and revert to pre IP disruption which was on the 14th of June. Restored version (one currently up) is a restored sock puppet version so it should be removed back to the 14th. Thank you. AncientCastle (talk) 20:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:36, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Latitude, longitude

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Is it worth mentioning the fact listed in 45th parallel north? JDAWiseman (talk) 22:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Thread contains sockpuppet content

Can you write that it's a very large city, as it's the largest city in Minnesota? Whislife (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
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