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Talk:Miss America's Outstanding Teen state pageants

Latest comment: 6 years ago by 331dot in topic Proposed merge with Miss New Mexico's Outstanding Teen
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Latest comment: 16 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I just spent ten minutes expanding and adding references to the article... and it never saved my changes. So I started again and did half an hours work adding even more information and references... and it lost it again! Arrrrgh. PageantUpdater 02:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I hate it when that happens! Dreadstar † 17:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I tried to make changes also. It didn't save mine either. Anyone know what to do? 128.192.236.171 21:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

TOC

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Latest comment: 17 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

I added the "states" style of TOC to see how that worked, the original default TOC was rather long. The only issue with the states-style is when there is no section on the particular state. Perhaps this could be addressed by adding a list of states with no winner - perhaps including some kind of status on those states so it doesn't appear to be a negative comment about that state.

We can also try a different compact style, such as: {{compactTOC5T}}. For a more complete list of compact TOC styles, see Compact TOC's Dreadstar † 16:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks... this is a vast improvement :) The main problem is that I just haven't had time to complete all the states... I'm working away at plugging the gaps bit by bit but it's going to take a while. Not exactly sure what to do in the meantime. PageantUpdater 21:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
Any way to get DC in the template? --After Midnight 0001 02:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yes, you can add to the list. I added Washington, DC and put the section heading at the end of the list. You can move the section, and/or rename it. {{TOCStates|before=|after=[[#Washington, DC|Washington, DC]]|noendlinks=}} – Dreadstar † 03:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, I fixed the name. This is definitely an improvement on the original TOC :) PageantUpdater talk • contribs 03:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Cyberbot II has detected links on Miss America's Outstanding Teen state pageants which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.

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Cleanup coming - must provide RS

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I intend to remove all material that is not sourced to a third party reliable source. These articles are often inaccurate because they are a magnet for self promotion and people inserting their name in WP for fun. Legacypac (talk) 13:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Original research

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Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Almost everything on this page is unreferenced WP:OR. I could easily insert my dog's name in here and no one would be able to dispute it. I intend to start removing unverified info shortly. Legacypac (talk) 19:18, 29 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Here's a thought, instead of being destructive you could be constructive & help reference & clean up the article? (if pigs would fly) --- PageantUpdater (talk) 23:58, 29 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Proposed merge with Miss New Mexico's Outstanding Teen

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Latest comment: 6 years ago14 comments5 people in discussion

Unless each individual state pageant meets the notability guidelines for events as shown in independent sources, the content should be merged and the pages turned into redirects. 331dot (talk) 23:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've started this discussion with the New Mexico article, but it goes for each individual state article. 331dot (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Absolutely. The state pageants are only WP:BRANCHes of the main event. Legacypac (talk) 00:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Respectfully, and frankly, I'm not sure each state's results need to be listed specifically at all. That's something an official site associated with this pageant should do, but at a minimum we don't need 50 or 51 articles on this. Certainly the national winner in the main article(as it is currently) should be mentioned but in order to have separate articles each state's pageant must be shown to meet WP:NEVENT. As a resident of Maine for what it's worth I can say that I've never heard of this as beauty pageants are not as important here as in other states. 331dot (talk) 10:30, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
I’m on mobile now but see the two AFDs at the top of the page, most recently 2015. Both closed as keep, no one seemed to have the concerns that people are jumping on now. You have been more reasonable than most but the IDONTLIKEIT pileon has me questioning the point of the years of contributions I have contributed to wiki, I clearly should have been doing something better with my time since it’s all going to be deleted before long (& all articles that passed AFDs in the past two which is what’s so irritating. I think i’m over fighting the inevitable). --- PageantUpdater (talk) 11:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
I wish you would stop defending pages that fail WP:BRANCH and WP:EVENT and other criteria. Legacypac (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose merger. Under WP:SPINOUT, the only relevant question is whether the parent list has become too large and, if so, what is the most appropriate way to spin out the sub-lists. Nothing in that guidance requires a separate test of notability for each sub-list. Regarding the size of the parent list, it's worth noting that complete sourcing of the spun-out lists required, on average, about two sources for every entry in the list. So let's do a little arithmetic. These pageants have been around for about 17 years, so that'll be about 35 references per pageant. And there are 51 pageants. So a merger of all of the by-state articles would create a parent list that had more than 800 entries and, when completely sourced, would require more than 1,500 references. That's far too large for a single article. Spinning them out by state is the right approach and should not be undone.

    I see that one of the commenters here has raised the novel theory that the state pageants are simply "branches" of the national competition. But nothing in WP:BRANCH even hints at the possibility that the provisions are applicable to structured systems of organized competition. If the scope of WP:BRANCH is to be expanded in this manner, there will need to be a centralised discussion held at WP:NORG. And if this is done, don't forget to notify all of the WikiProjects that deal with league sports, because this novel theory could be used to say that individual teams are merely "branches" of the leagues to which they belong. Would we then call for deletion of our article on the Philadelphia Keystones on the theory that it was merely a "branch" of the Union Association? Would we do the same with Chicago Whales, because that team was just a "branch" of the Federal League? And that's just two of several examples from one sport (baseball). Can anyone here estimate how many other articles would be subject to deletion on the basis of this novel theory untested by any centralised discussion? Considering that there is nothing in this novel theory that would limit its scope to any particular type of competition, I suspect that the number would run into the hundreds, if not thousands.

    I also have a procedural concern. This discussion, as well as the banner on the article itself, notifies readers of the proposed merger of only one state article. But I see that two other state articles have also been proposed for merging into the instant one. And the nomination suggests that the discussion is really about "each individual state article". So, what exactly is the scope of this proposal? And if it is intended to support the merging of every article that has been spun-out from this one, shouldn't notices be placed on all of those articles (and not just three of them)? NewYorkActuary (talk) 19:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have not had the chance to tag all the relevant articles yet.(which I assume is 50). 331dot (talk) 21:10, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
I also was unsure as to if it was necessary, since the same people likely follow them. 331dot (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
For what it's worth, I think there are 51 pageants (each state, plus the District of Columbia). But that's not really the relevant figure, because the number of potential merges is limited to the number of articles that have been spun out. As for assuming that the same people follow all of the articles, that might be a tough sell if anyone who hasn't participated in this discussion makes an after-the-fact objection on the basis of "failure to notify".
More substantively, I'm glad you commented here, because it caused me to take a closer look at some of the spun-out articles. When the spin-outs started, they were being done only for those state-lists that had been completely sourced. That struck me as the proper way to do things. But I see now that, just within the past week or so, a new editor has been spinning them out without regard to sourcing. And that strikes me as the wrong way to do things. And so, I modify my opposition to have it apply only to those state lists that have become satisfactorily sourced. I have no objection to the merging back of those lists that are thinly sourced. Within the next day or so, I'll come back with a list of the specific articles for which I continue to oppose merging. NewYorkActuary (talk) 22:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
Hello again, folks. I've had a chance to look at the spun-out articles. There are 53 pageants (Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands have been intermittant participants in the national pageant). Of these 53, 16 still appear in the article here. That leaves 37 that have been spun out. 11 of them have good sourcing. The other 26 were moved prematurely and I have no objection to their being merged back here, pending further development of the sourcing (after which, of course, I support their being spun out again).

The eleven with good sourcing are the ones for Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Washington, and Wisconsin.

25 of the other 26 were spun out prematurely by a single relatively-inexperienced editor. The other one was spun out by a different relatively-inexperienced editor, who ceased editing about a week before the other editor did the other 25.

Just for the record, I've not taken the position that the rules of WP:SPINOUT call for complete sourcing (and, in any event, verification of all the national contestants could be achieved in those spun-out articles merely by copying the General Reference that already appears here). It's just that the original plan of "source first, spin out later" was a good plan and should not have been undone by an impetuous new editor.

One last point -- the spun-out article for Arkansas is not as well-sourced as the other ones that I included in my list. And yet, most of the still-needed sourcing is available from sources that already appear in that article. It looks like somebody stopped work in the middle of the task. Over the next few days, I'll finish that job for them. NewYorkActuary (talk) 20:37, 25 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

  • Support merge provided that the names of nn winners are removed. If they are unsourced, that's a BLP concern. If they are sourced, that's excessive intricate detail. In either case, I don't believe that the names belong. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:30, 26 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
And once the nn names are removed, the article would be much shorter, negating any spin off concern. 331dot (talk) 09:23, 26 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
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