Talk:Mitragyna speciosa/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

can we a reference?

"In more recent times, mitragynine has been used in New Zealand for methadone dependence detox"

Im from New Zealand and have been on and off the methadone program a number of times and Ive never heard of this (which of course is not to say it hasnt been used, but it does indicate its not a standard treatment, or even a well known one), a google search of pages in new zealand shows NO results for mitragynine/ methadone, which kind of suggests its bunk... 125.239.110.185 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC).

needs English pronunciation added.

All I needed was the English pronunciation. Are those vowels long/short/or other? All I found was the Thai pronunciation: extremely unhelpful in the ENGLISH Wikipedia! So, NO ONE knows how to pronounce this word in English?!? Wikipedia was my last resort. <a href="http://phytoextractum.com">kratom</a> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.216.6 (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Effects, Anti Diarrhea Folk Medicine

Hi guys was reading the Effects section and saw the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph states that "In folk medicine, it is often used to treat diarrhea due to its high fiber content." That is has fiber isn't the primary mechanism that it treats diarrhea. Like all u-opioid agonists, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine greatly decrease intestinal motility, that is they slow down/inhibit the contractions of the smooth muscle lining the intestines and slow the movement of all food material (chyme) through the intestines. Since the digesting food is in the intestines longer, they have more time to absorb water from the food material resulting in solid feces and not diarrhea.

If you want a reference here it is:

Takayama H, Ishikawa H, Kurihara M, Kitajima M, Aimi N, Ponglux D, Koyama F, Matsumoto K, Moriyama T, Yamamoto LT, Watanabe K, Murayama T, Horie S (April 2002). "Studies on the synthesis and opioid agonistic activities of mitragynine-related indole alkaloids: discovery of opioid agonists structurally different from other opioid ligands". J. Med. Chem. 45 (9): 1949–56. doi:10.1021/jm010576e. PMID 11960505

This also applies to the constipation subject below. The degree of constipation caused by kratom would be related to how large a dose somebody has taken.

Please comment here on if I should go ahead and make the change or not. Thanks Vajko (talk) 03:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

vendors

Could the various kratom vendors maybe stop editting each other in and out of the external links? Murple 20:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Addiction Potential

This needs to be there. Anyone who disagrees is being self serving. Among US born users of kratom I have personally talked to, Withdrawl lasts up to 14 days. With some pretty severe symptoms I might add. So If you are only willing to showcase the FUN or Profitable side of Kratom you are not doing anything good for a wiki article. The Information needs to be UNBIASED to qualify or its just your opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.187.174 (talk) 17:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The 14 days mentioned are not correct, there is a clear and objective thesis titled " MENTAL HEALTH AND QUALITY OF LIFE IN KRATOM USERS" in here you will find an objective research that clearly shows that over 95% of the users have less then 7 days withdrawal symptoms. This should be changed. Luckramer (talk) 18:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but that study is hardly objective. It seems clear to me that there is an anti-Kratom bias in that study designed to uphold Thailand's laws against Kratom. 70.181.247.170 (talk) 23:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I think addiction becomes a problem because people are very ignorant of drugs and the ins and outs of every molecule in our society. The addiction phenomenon is a constant "anxiety" in the way we view drugs today. It is a rather new perspective, a point that few people seem to consider. In a way, "addiction" is an environmental phenomenon.

If people were aware that they could just taper off of opiates. . .Then things would be a lot different. Also, if there was enough supply for that to be possible for many people, that would make things a lot different too.

But we make it very hard to get opiates in our society today, not to mention the general base stereotype of the opiate-user today. It's supposedly only for pain in our society, yet in Europe they're already doing studies that show how the endorphin system is related to mood; and in fact already making opiate-based anti-depressants.

In the past, before the addiction model of drugs, people would just take another taper dose if necessary. The trees were all over the place. Tapering off was easy and probably done all of the time.

It's not as easy now.

But most people have to learn the hard way, since we only educate our people about the negatives of drugs, not the full picture.

I'm not saying that there isn't any addiction potential possible, just that it's often very overblown.

Secondly, I'd like to add that Kratom is a user's plant. It in fact adds to that lacking supply of many users of opiates, which keeps them from getting withdrawals.

In general, its addiction potential pales in comparison to other, stronger opiates.

Kratom is really only addictive if you're already dependent to another opiate drug. If that's not so, the "addiction potential" is very small. You have to ingest kratom for days and days on end to get withdrawal. Using it every now and then is not going to cause dependency.

I think a lot of it has to do with the user's/subject's general tolerance for psychoactive drugs/analgesics (or, even more specifically, general tolerance for opiates). I knew someone who used kratom (about 6 g/day) for migraine (he was not interested in going through the rigamarole/stigma associated with finding an MD who would actually prescribe hydrocodone or such long-term). His migraines are seasonal - mostly occurring in the summer - and when he stopped taking it when the temperature got cooler, his withdrawal lasted maybe about 7 days. However, I know someone else who never develops much of a tolerance to any OTC psychoactive drugs (caffeine, etc.), and she experimented with kratom (same dose as my male friend) for severe menstrual cramps (again, was tired of MDs not taking her pain seriously and also tired of having to take enough NSAIDs each month to potentially permanently damage her liver). Unfortunately, the kratom didn't work for the cramps, so she stopped taking it after trying it for about 1.5-2 mos. Absolutely no withdrawal, not even one day. So the point of all this is, in short, that withdrawal varies hugely by the particular individual in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.163.8 (talk) 19:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Forums?

I know of only one forum for kratom that I found on this page. It seems it had been deleted, but I put it back in. If there is some problem with that forum, or forums in general (on the main page), could somebody post other forums either in the main page or in the discussion? So, this is Kratomforum.com correct?

---

Hi, the most active forum at this time is drug-forum.com they have a chapter on Kratom which is well populated and contains actual comments. And no, I'm not associated.

I don't know if we're talking about the same forum, but there was a good one on there that someone deleted.. I just added it back. People need to stop deleting things they aren't supposed to.

24.59.207.167 22:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policy for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you.

To the vandal who is removing external links and using it for advertising: this is your warning. If you repeat yourself again you will be banned from wikipedia.

You do realise that template warns against adding the sort of link you are trying to add, not against removing them? The helpful user who has removed the inappropriate forum link was doing right. Skittle 15:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

They were doing right by adding their own? Fuck you.

They were doing right by removing your link, which was what you seemed to take exception to. If you look, their link has also been removed. Also, please avoid personal attacks; others are more bothered about this sort of thing than me, and you can end up blocked, which would be a shame. Skittle 21:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry! But I am really pissed because you are making the other person seem completely innocent! Let me re-post what I removed earlier today!

There is the Main forum for Kratom Information with the largest membership and sponsored by the most successful vendor with the highest quality product.On Kratomforum.com you will find every kind of information you seek. Then there is an Egomaniacs attempt to rape, pillage, and plagiarize that forum on a site within a site. It seems that their "Enthusiasm" for Kratom is only superseded by their abilities to con vendors into paying their utility bills and the desire for 4-5 people to post on and on and on ad nauseum. No real information, mostly a coffee-klatch for verbose illiterates.

And if you hadn't removed that section from talk, other people would have been able to see this and judge the behaviour for themselves, which would probably have led to a different response. However, you removed it so people couldn't see that person's words, then you proceeded to talk about a 'vandal' removing your link to a forum; because you did that, it made you look less reasonable than I'm sure you are. It's very easy to get worked up when editing Wikipedia, particularly early on when you're not completely familiar with the customs and rules. In brief: removing your link was right, but they shouldn't have added the link to their forum; removing their comments made them look more reasonable, because other people couldn't see their attack; Wikipedia is a weird place, and it takes a long time to learn how to get the best result - even after years, people sometimes do silly things, especially when worked up. I hope your future experience here is more positive! Skittle 19:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize. 24.59.207.167 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC) So, you apologize but then you re-post your stupid site right back on the first page?? So much for apologies! See above quote: See the external links guideline and spam policy for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.50.28 (talk) 23:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Kratom is addictive and I know because I am withdrawing from it now and I have never used opiates!! Please do not write things that aren't true, I am going through living hell right now with the withdrawals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.152.166.131 (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

What? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.194.40.106 (talk) 06:21, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I just removed 2 external links again pointing to seller sites, the other external links were removed before me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luckramer (talk • contribs) 01:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Safety

Nothing has ever indicated that Kratom would be safer than methadone. I'm removing the implication that it may be "much" safer. What is much? I'll leave in the explication that it may be used in a capacity similar to methadone, although the documented problems in Kratom users, and the problems one can anticipate occuring because of the Yohimbe-like effects pretty much put that out of the question as a viable alternative. The cure for opiate dependence will always remain opiates, rather than weird cocktails of opiate agonists/antagonists along with adrenergenics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.70.65 (talk) 04:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to OD and die with methadone. I doubt that's the case with Kratom... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.111.254 (talk) 12:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with the first poster in this section. While it is true that there are no known deadly overdoses from kratom, and plenty from methadone... and true that kratom has a much longer history of use with no major health concerns being documented, it hasn't been *scientifically* proven to be safer than methadone or anything else. While I strongly suspect it is much safer, the wording change is warranted. The other comments about the multiple actions of kratom are way off-base though. Yeah it has other activity, but its dominant activity is opioid-like. The fact that quite a few people ARE using it as a methadone alternative shows it works in that way. I also disagree that "The cure for opiate dependence will always remain opiates" - the cure for opiate dependence is to stop taking opiates, not substitute a different one. Murple (talk) 11:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

methodone only replaces opiates and keeps you addicticted. Kratom works FDA wouldnt want that now more money in selling methodone that you cant get off. relapse back to opiates is very high with methodone. occurse most addicts should of learned the difference between receational and a hobbie No Offense to people who got hooked on opiates from medical treatment Love that FDA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.133.80.107 (talk) 21:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Vender Trash

More venders have been at this article again. I am removing the link to kratom.net as it is simply a thinly veiled attempt to direct people the sjaaman vender. There is very little information, most of which was copied from the kratom users guide. To quote the disclaimer on the site.

"Substantial parts of the texts on this Kratom website are tken from The Kratom User's Guide by Created by "Sage Student" and Daniel Siebert"

If any venders are reading this. Please do everyone a favor and stay the hell away.

Methods of ingestion

The article continues to include information that dried kratom leaf can be inserted into the rectum to achieve the most potent opiate activity. This humble reader doubts that either whole or crushed leaves (dry, in any case) could be inserted into the rectum with ease. The rectum is not self-lubricating, and therefore the alkaloids would not be readily absorbed into the blood. It seems possible that creating an aqueous or alcoholic extract of the leaves, then putting this into the rectum could be a very efficient method of delivery. I would be most interested to know who has attempted to insert dry Mitragyna speciosa leaves into their anus to some positive result. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butler83 (talk • contribs)

For some reason some people always want to put drugs up their asses, and will claim that that is the most effective method of administration. I find their claims extremely unlikely, but I'm not about to give myself an enema just to prove what I already know. 01:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This page claims you cannot ingest the commercial powder but this is 100% b.s. I have tried every forum of Kratom and IMO the most economical and most potent method is to simply consume the raw "commercial premium" powder(yes I have had super premium, and "15x").

The problem is everyone assumes what worked for them once or twice is the same for everyone.

--its true you can eat the premium powdered kratom raw and get the effects for sure, mixing with honey helps the flavor a lot.

Kratom does indeed taste quite disgusting. The two easiest ways of taking it are either by "toss and wash" i.e taking a heaped teaspoon of it and have a large glass of juice to wash it away with. Or, the easiest (but time consuming) way of all is to put it into capsules. This obviously has no taste whatsoever, but that teaspoon will take around 6 well packed, size "00" caps to get the same amount down. This dose is perfect for a first try to see any effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.135.131.179 (talk) 17:32, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Opiate potentiation?

I disagree with this article's assertion that kratom potentiates opiates. If anything, they seem to have competitive affinity for the opioid receptors. Granted this is based entirely upon subjective experience, but I think it is worth mentioning in the context of the article. I have found hydrocodone to be less effective if I have consumed kratom within the past several hours.

I completely agree, I have tried to combine "real" opiates and kratom on many occasions and it always results in nothing more than a wicked headache every single time, and without taking nearly enough to have OD be a cause.

• I stroooooooooooooongly disagree. If you take two things that act on the same receptors in the same way, on an individual receptor by receptor basis they may be competing, but overall, youve got a lot more stuff working on a lot more receptors. I dont think anyones accidentally going to combine enough to be dangerous, but it is at least theoretically possible. While interesting, your observations are in line with neither theoretical pharmacology nor most people's anecdotal reports.

• • If you take enough methadone (200mls for example), it saturates the opiate receptors and will there-fore act as a "blocker" (like subutex/buprenorphine). It seems possible that this saturation of opiate receptors occurs with Kratom as well. Just guess work, but I doubt anyone was done any research and I myself have never combined (significant) amounts of the two drugs to offer a subjective opinion. 82.0.206.215 (talk) 15:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

• • • I also disagree. I have experienced normal potentiation effect with kratom and oxycodone. I suspect the problem lies in your personal neurochemistry -- the brain is idiosyncratic, and sometimes individuals get effects that contradict those that most people experience. 75.18.209.45 (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• • • • I also disagree. Kratom has antagonists which, if used correctly with another opiate, take the opiate off of the newly-created receptors from opiate-use, and moves them back to the original receptors. Newly-created receptors don't have as high of an affinity for agonism as the original receptors. Thus you get more effect with the same amount of drug. This isn't based on anything subjective, either. This is based on how Kratom works neurologically.

• • • • • I think everyone here is a little confused on pharmacology so I'm gonna chime in. Regarding the issue of binding competition between hydocodone and opioids in kratom, of course they are gonna compete for binding to the mu receptor - even two molecules of the SAME drug will compete with each other for binding to a single receptor. This isn't what matters for determining the ultimate level of receptor activation; what matters is how efficacious the two drugs are compared to one another. If they are both full agonists than combining the two drugs will yield a greater pharmacological effect because more receptors will be occupied, and regardless of which drug is bound there will be equivalent activation of the signaling cascade. However, if on drug has weaker efficacy then if will act to antagonize the other drug. I believe that both hydrocodone and 7-OH-mitragynine are full agonists, but I'm not positive... That being said, binding competition is not the only issue that will influence the interaction between vicodin and kratom - there will also be effects of receptor desensitization and downregulation. Thus, if 7-OH-mitragynine rapidly induces an unusually large amount of mu-receptor decoupling from effector mechanisms (receptor phosphorylation, etc) or of mu-receptor internalization, than it certainly could influence the effectiveness of subsequently administered opiates. Second, regarding the action of methadone, it is completely untrue that mu-receptors are saturated at maintenance doses of methadone. If this was true than all these methadone patients would die from respiratory depression, because that is what happens when mu-receptors in the brainstem are completely saturated by a full agonist. Furthermore, if you administer 500 mg methadone to someone who is dependent on only 200 mg/day methadone than they would without question experience an overdose, so the lower dose of methadone obviously does not "saturate" the receptors because if that was the case than larger doses couldn't be effective. Methadone does not work by saturation, but by achieving relatively high levels of occupation in combination with substantial tolerance. Both of these factors in combination tend to make heroin ineffective in methodone maintained patients. However, if you administer high enough doses of a high-affinity full agonist such as fentanyl to those patients they will experience profound effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psychopharmacology (talk • contribs) 09:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • • I disagree, and agree, based on the experience of someone I meet for lunch every day. A low dose of kratom taken after the onset of hydrocodone's effect can have a significant potentiation, maintaining the hydrocodone effect without interference so long as the dose is not high. Too much, and the kratom effect takes over. The reverse tends to potentiate the kratom effect, and is more likely to induce a headache. In fact the hydrocodone effect usually has no chance of displaying itself as anything other than a headache, similar to the effect of too large a kratom dose. In contrast, a long stretch of moderate daily use of either seems to completely interfere with the effectiveness of the other in ways unlike typical desensitization--I'll leave the pharmacology up to someone else. However, I'm not sure how this discussion effects the kratom page in any way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Multiwave (talk • contribs) 10:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

• • • • • • • What you are describing is probably not potentiation, but having aditive effects. It may sound like a subtle difference but potentiation would really mean that after kratom an inactive dose of hydrocodone would be capable of producing effects. All you are describing is that someone took two drugs and experienced more of an effect than they would have experienced on one of the drugs alone. Mitragynine binds to multiple opiate receptors and so you could be seeing a mu effect from hydrocodone and a delta effect from mitragynine, which would probably be more intense a drug effect than taking hydrocodone alone, but is not necessarily potentiation. Additionally, more mu receptors may be occupied compared with mitragynine or hydrocodone alone , yielding a stronger effect. Neither of these effects is really potentiation, which is usually defined a supra-additive effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halbax (talk • contribs) 07:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to add my experience. I have used both kratom and oxy off and on for long periods of time. I find that oxy is a lot less effective if administered within about a day after I have taken kratom, whereas if I take the oxy again the next day, it has the expected potency. I don't know why. Also, a friend of mine who is addicted to hydrocodone took his regular dose of hydro and then, in an effort to get higher, took a large dose of kratom. He did not get high at all, which is unusual for him. I have also had this same experience while I was prescribed T3s (they didn't work on kratom). I'm not trying to argue or start a debate, or claim that anything said above is right or wrong. Just sharing my experience for the general knowledge.

That said, and yes I'm sorry this isn't supposed to be the place for discussions, but I think it's at least related. I'm currently tapering off of kratom, thus ending my opioid dependency very soon. I'm down to every 12 hours, and I find that if I step down my dose (let's say I wait 16 hours), I feel very uncomfortable the next time I dose (restless, etc), but if I were to increase my dose it would be too much. What is going on neurologically to cause this? I'm guessing it is similar to the reason oxy, after about 9 months into my addiction, made me restless and crappy feeling whenever I took it -- no matter what I did. 74.46.62.234 (talk) 14:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

More anecdotal experience: I have been addicted to opiates on and off for 30 years due to a chronic serious medical condition. Despite this valid condition I have been outrageously irresponsible with my opiate consusmption using the condition as a pretense for aquiring oral and injectable narc's. I am currently not using as I just became exhausted after such a long time of obtaining, hhiding my use, and balancing a, believe it or not, succesful executive level career. So, here's the Kratom link.

For the past five years I have been a patient of a pain clinic who's sole contribution to my health has been the addition of methadone to my cornacopia of abuse. I detest the shit. It must be said that Methadone is an amazing and powerful analegsic. But the spectrum of side effects both physical and phsycological are so devestating that I now am of he opinion that it's use should, with rare exception, be reserved for terminal conditions.

I was up to 80 mgs per day with no effect other than to blunt cravings for other narc's and blunt actual pain I experienced from time to time. I lost my last prescription and was literally unable to face the bitch/triage nurse at the pain clinic to get the damn thing replaced. In about two days post methadone the ususal conditions began to present themselves. I was so sick of debasing myself to get prescriptions I was just determined to face these consequences and if I wound up in a hospital so be it. Then I remembered something about an herb or something I had seen online and started to google untill I found it again, voila, Kratom.

I will conclude forthwith. I took three doses of two teaspoons a day for a week. Then two teaspoons the following week. Then one teaspoon for about three days after which my curiousity got the better of me and I experimented with doses to test the "effects" of Kratom and quickly found out the dose escalation only resulted in headaches and nauseau. I got sick of drinking this slurry of leaves, bark and water tht cost $20 p/day and quit all together at the conclusion of three weeks post methadone.

I did not experience one withdrawal symptom from the moment I ingested my first dose of Kratom till I put it down three weeks later. I had no Kratom withdrawal whatsoever upon cessation of that substance. I have had no cravings for narc's either. Pardon my frankness, but my experience, anecdotal as it is, has been nothing short of fucking amazing.

I am a little puzzled by the descriptions of addiction, but I also understand the vast difference individuals experience with same drug. I don't mean to judge, but some of the Kratom addiction accounts seem to me that there may have also been some fairly significant "co-addicitive" phsycological factors those individuals were experiencing that may have made their Kratom use more susceptible to abuse. I have no doubt that you mess with you mu-opioid receptors long enough with any substance, and they will scream to some degree when it is withdrawn. Sorry if this is too long or out of place it is my first iteration of my experience and first contribution to Wiki. Thanks.Bcbbcb (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Questionable link

Should the link to kratom corner stay? My problem is that the forum is run by the kratomking store.

Edit: there is no longer a forum present. It is now only a sources for Kratom, which should not be there. There are enough REAL kratom forums to list.

How Dangerous is it?

I came here seeking an answer to the questio, How Dangerous is Kratom, and I don't feel like I got my answer. Mathiastck 21:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• No scientific data on kratom safety exists. While I suspect it is safe (other than addiction) you are gambling with your health/life by taking a drug with no safety data backed by research. Murple (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably not very dangerous at all. You would puke before you could drink enough.

• • Kratom has immunostimulant properties, and in general hits a lot of opiate receptors. It's also naturally-occuring, whereas many opiate-based drugs are semi-synthetic or synthetic derivates.

I think it's one of the safest opiates, and here's my main reason why: the build-up of the antagonists discourages long-term high-level abuse because the antagonist levels overwhelm the agonist level, causing the "high" to dissipate; if they already have a dependency, and take too much, they'll get stuck in a withdrawal that they can't cure until Kratom is out of the system completely . . .Due to the self-limiting nature of it, it's very hard to overdose and to develop a serious habit quickly.

What information is there that any of the alkaloids are antagonists at all? 216.227.117.69 (talk) 00:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Holy crappy article, Batman!

It seems that this article was taken over by one or more vendors seeking to use Wikipedia as a means of advertising. I see no encyclopedic purpose served by posting (mostly wrong anyway) garbage about the various "grades" of kratom some vendor(s) sell. There was also a bunch of absurd BS about kratom being just like hydrocodone and oxycodone. Hardly! And whoever the moron was who posted that a low dose is 14g and a strong dose is 28g... are you TRYING to make people sick? This article is atrocious. I cleaned it up some but it needs lots of work. I also will be keeping my eye on it and removing any stupid vendor garbage or misinformation that I find. Murple 21:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• Look away for a while and its chock full of stupidity again. Good grief people... Please stop putting half-ass internet folklore in Wikipedia as if they were fact. The pharmacology section was just ridiculous... complete lack of understanding of what "potency" means scientifically was an especially bad example. Under addiction, that "dark skin patches" thing was passed off as observed fact which isn't even remotely true. Some piss poor Thai farmers decades ago told a couple anthropologists thats what they thought happened to kratom addicts. It has never been observed, and as far as I know, has never even turned up in any ethnomedical field data beyond the tiny handful of people interviewed in that initial survey (10-20 people?). I refrained from doing heavy edits on this article so far since I already wrote an article cited in it... but it looks like I'm going to have to spend an hour or two this week and try to clean up this turd of an article. Murple 05:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Addiction Potential

WARNING: When used responsibly, kratom has little to no risk of addiction. It should be used no more than once a week, preferably once or twice a month. If used daily or multiple times a week, addiction is very possible. Symptoms of withdrawal are very intense, comparable to opiates. These symptoms can last as long as a month.

I agree. This point is worth emphasizing, because a lot of Internet references on kratom make the claim that it does not produce withdrawal symptoms like true opiates. It can still potentially be a quite unpleasant experience, even if opiate withdrawal is technically worse. Kratom withdrawal is less severe than opiate withdrawal just like a 2nd degree burn is less severe than a 3rd degree burn. No one should decide to use kratom under the false impression that they can't become physically dependent on it.

Totally disagree! Having tried every strain of kratom over 2 years, I can affirm that withdrawal lasts no more than 3-4 days. In that time, the worst experiences Ive had are minor panic attacks, sweating, and basically being quite jittery (oh, and being snappy with my partner). You can combat this with a few beers or a low dose (around 2grams tapering off) until you get over it. But in no way do withdrawal symptoms "last as long as a month". In fact, its only with useage over the 3-4 times a week rate, for a long period, that I found any withdrawal at all. Oh, and kratom is NOT an opiate. And for anyone wondering about the age old question "Does it show up on drug tests?" The answer is NO! It has no false positives for opiates as long as you havent been taking any along with it. I have been work tested, and I have carried out my own home tests (5 to be exact) with urine dips and all came back clear. If you would like confirmation of this, buy your own tests online and prove me correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.135.131.179 (talk) 17:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC) personally i would like to add that yes its true the physical withdrawal lasts no more than 2 to 3 days for me i used to take it like 4 times a week maybe but..and its very important ! mental withdrawal lasts at least a month that is being depressed and thinking about using it again every day....and even after a lot of time has passed i still get cravings for it real real bad!....kratom is the only opiate i tried and i wish i had never tried it..its better to stay way from it unless you are an addict and trying to quit harder substances ...its not as safe as people who sell it and addicts make it look — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.78.105.27 (talk) 21:35, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Constipation

The article states that kratom use does not produce the extreme constipation of opiates. This is slightly misleading I believe, because kratom can and will produce constipation, particularly when used daily. It may not be as "extreme" as that caused by true opiates, but the distinction is purely one of magnitude. Maybe that part of the article should be reworked?

== Methods of potentiation == what a lot of krap.kratom if anything acts as a movement inducer better than traditional laxatives

What methods of potentiation have you discovered? I often hear grapefruit juice potentiates many ingested chemicals, including mitragynine, because it interferes with digestive enzymes that would ordinarily breakdown a significant proportion of the ingested chemical. I do not know whether or not this is actually true in the case of kratom.

• There is absolutely no reason to believe that to be true. This rumor got started as a result of a vague awareness by some folks of the fact that "grapejuice potentiates opiates" and since kratom feels kinda like opiates grapejuice must potentiate it too. This is kinda like people who insist on using MAOIs to potentiate salvia ("hey it makes you trip so its the same as DMT right?") even though salvia's actives are not monoamines. Mitragynine is very different chemically from any opiates, and it most likely is metabolized by MAO... so if you wanted to potentiate it, MAOIs would probably be the way to go. All that grapefruit juice is likely to do in combination with kratom is help you get a healthy serving of vitamin C. I'm very skeptical of the idea that the P450 inhibitors in grapefruit would in any way potentiate kratom. No scientific research on that has been done so it can't be said for sure, but based on the chemical structure of mitragynine I think it's a good bet. Personal experiments have also led me to believe there is no benefit at all to mixing grapefruit with kratom, other than the benefits of grapefruit in general such as vitamin C and maybe some fiber. Scientifically though, an uncontrolled single-person experiment like that is utterly meaningless. Murple 18:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

One odd thing I have noticed, however, is that Diet Dr. Pepper seems to increase the effects of kratom. One would assume it is the caffeine in the beverage, but I have not noticed the same effect with other caffeinated soft drinks. I now use kratom and Diet Dr. Pepper in tandem to great effect. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that I am just weird, but I would be interested to know if anyone else notices a similar effect.

• I would be willing to bet my penis that this is just a placebo effect. Dr Pepper is mostly sugarwater with some flavorings and caffeine. Murple 18:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Is here no possibility that the phenylalanine in most diet drinks would contribute to feeling good? -

to the person who said Dr. Pepper helps potentiate kratom for them. . .I have actually observed the same effect in myself and two friends. whether it's placebo, I can't say, but it sure seems to do something. I have not noticed this with anything else, including red bull and root beer (only other two carbonated beverages I drink). weird! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.62.234 (talk) 15:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Side effects

I suggest a section on side effects. In my experience the side effects are similar to frequent opiate use, including reduction of libido. It is also purported to cause a darkening of the skin, particularly the cheeks, among traditional Thai users.

• That darkening was just reported in one survey and has never been observed. Likely is purely folkloric. As for other side effects... well, the best we could put in would be anecdotal stuff, some of which may be meaningful, others not so much. I'm reluctant to see a bunch of anecdotal and hypochondriacal claims of side effects put in here. Murple 05:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that when I take kratom it is slightly harder to urinate. A number of other people on a forum that I used to frequent all felt the same thing (the males, that is).

- Total opposite here for me. I urinate much more frequently when on kratom, which maybe adds to the possible constipation, or at least, quite dry stools (worst case compacted) you can experience. Wash yours down with some prune juice and this may help. Though, you may well also find that within 30-60mins of taking some, you will feel the need to go for a dump.

• Difficulty urinating is a common side-effect of all opioid drugs and is not specific to kratom. Psychopharmacology 15:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I find that when masturbating on kratom, I can feel pleasure, but am unable to orgasm unless I start going really, really fast and force it at the end. This same effect has occurred with me on only one other occasion: when I was taking zoloft regularly. Other opioids including heroin (which actually makes me horny) and oxycodone do not produce this effect.

True. Great for your partner though :)

UK Legality Wrong?

I have seen no evidence through searching with google except this wiki article that Kratom is illegal to consume in the UK. Can someone please confirm its illegality or change the information on wiki. Thankyou.

• It is legal in the UK. Murple 18:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• UPDATE* couldn't find the source but I have read that consuming a substance that mimics an illegal substance is against the law. I think this applies to kratom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.101.42 (talk) 02:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Effects of long term use?

As there is a paucity of scholarly articles about kratom use, I suspect the answer to this will be no, but is anyone aware of any scientific documentation of kratom's long term effects? For instance, has it or any of its constituents been implicated as carcinogenic or neurotoxic? 71.75.170.119 02:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

External links, and references

• Kratom paper by Murple
• Erowid Kratom Vault
• Kratom Users Guide
• Entheology.org Articles, research, and knowledgebase for entheogens and teaching plants

I removed all of these from the external links section, since I do not think any of them comply with external links policy. If they do include useful information that is not in the article, please put the information in the article and use them as references. In fact, adding some references in general would be nice, since the article currently has none. Skittle 15:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

i need help how to trade Kratom. i dont know "price standard".

in my place, there are much enough product of Kratom, not manage effectively. its too cheap if sold to the buyer here. i dont have information bout price in other place.

if you have information and want give me a hand, please send messenger to my mail : riyantops@yahoo.com

thank you sincerly P.S. Riyanto DS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.160.80.178 (talk) 07:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see how links to Erowid do not comply with Wiki's external links policy. Erowid is used as a link in pretty much every recreational substance page on Wikipedia. Proof: Lsd#External_links, Magic_mushrooms#External_links, Peyote#External_links. Need I go on? 78.143.202.153 (talk) 00:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, Other Stuff Exists is not a good argument for including things. That just suggests that the other articles also need their external links sections cleaned. But you could probably use the link as a reference, hopefully combined with other references, so that the information can be in the article. The main point is that the information should be right here, in the Wikipedia article. We shouldn't just be directing people away to other places; Wikipedia is not a directory or hub. IF the article does not contain information that can be put in the article, why do we list it as an external link? Skittle (talk) 14:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

"IF the article does not contain information that can be put in the article, why do we list it as an external link?" I had a look at the External Links policy and it says to include "sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons." Erowid is a treasure trove of information on Kratom and other such entheogens, and to rip everything off of it to dump onto this page would be madness. The amount of information on Erowid is staggering and would just make this page bloated if it were all placed here.

Secondly WP:EL says to avoid linking to "any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." Erowid then is a site that should not be avoided as it contains plenty of unique resources that cannot be put into the article because they are personal experiences or pieces of original research. Cheers 78.143.202.153 (talk) 23:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

"IF the article does not contain information that can be put in the article, why do we list it as an external link?" So that our readers can access that information, until such time as someone adds it to our article. This website was founded and built upon the principles of Eventualism. Removing links to further-information doesn't help build upon what we do currently have; it restricts the possibilities of growth.

As for whether it is a reliable source, it gets mentioned in google scholar more than I expected. So (at least parts of it) could be suitable for both the "External links" and "References" sections. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Soon to be delegalized in Poland

This substance is on the list of 18(?) Substances soon to be delegalized (criminalized) in Poland:

Argyreia nervosa - Hawaiian Baby Woodrose, Banisteriopsis caapi - Ayhuasca, Calea zacatechichi - Dream Herb, Catha edulis - Khat, Echinopsis pachanoi - San Pedro (cactus), Piper methysticum - Kava Kava, Leonotis leonurus - Wild Dagga, Mimosa tenuiflora - Jurema, Mitragyna speciosa - Kratom, Nymphaea caerulea, Peganum harmala, Psychotria viridis, Rivea corymbosa, Salvia divinorum, Tabernanthe iboga - Iboga, Trichocereus peruvianus, Benzylpiperazine - BZP, JWH-018 - Spice

the bill (author of the bill: Grzegorz Sztolcman?) was accepted by Polish Sejm (for - 404, against - 5, and 2 abstent)[1] [2], Polish Senat [3] and the President of Poland [4].

Ttg53 (talk) 14:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Kratom as an 'aid' for M.E./C.F.S. sufferers

I have had M.E./C.F.S. for close to 20 years, and have been registered as 'disabled' for the last 10 of those as I have been unable to work or lead what most would class as an 'ordinary' lifestyle... mainly due to all-over body pain/aches and lack of energy. Five years ago I was taking up to 8x 500mg paracetmol a day, with each tablet also having 30 mgs Codiene. At these levels I could at least have some repite from higher pain levels, but obviously these levels are high, and not particularly healthy in the long-term!

I retired from England and moved to Thailand, where a local 'country' doctor (astonished at the levels of paracetamol/codiene I was ingesting) suggested Kratom. Over the following months I experimented with amounts, slowly increasing until I was 'comfortable. I settled at 4or5 x 7 inch leaves (or their equiv) in the morning, and the same again, normally, mid or late afternoon. My quality of life has increased dramatically, and I now lead a lifestyle with which most people who now know me would be shocked to find that I have M.E. I still have many of the more common M.E. symptoms, but not only are my energy levels much higher than previously, but my pain levels literally drop off by 50% within 10 mins of eating the leaves. I also sleep much better, and have been able to cot my 50mg Amatryptyline a night (yes.. 50 mg... been on that for 6 years!)... down to 25mg.

I am no chemist, and take Kratom purely as a medicinal thing... I have taken more than I need before, just to see what happens, but I found that when the effects wear off I am left exhausted. The level of intake I am now at is enough to make me almost 'normal' (though I would never be able to run Marathons again!) and is, I feel, appropriate for me... it is not a recommendation for anyone else!

I just wonder if any other M.E./C.F.S. sufferers have tried it as an alternative to massive amounts of paracetamol/codiene etc? If not... maybe it is worth a try? I am lucky as, being in Thailand, supply is not a problem - I even have my own tree (small but growing!). Although it is 'technically illegal in Thailand, it is pretty well acce[ted that it is widely used, and isn't really much of a problem where I am. Note... seeing as how I have this illness for life, I am not too worried about 'addiction' problems with Kratom... certainly not as worried as I was with the amounts of paracetamol and codiene I was taking!

I would be interested to hear from other M.E./C.F.S. sufferers on this subject, as it has, quite literally, changed my life! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.123.102.147 (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Archive

I'm proposing an archive of some of the older sections of this talk page, particularly the sections which really don't belong on a Wiki talkpage (e.g. the forum-like posts of questions). If nobody is opposed to the idea, I'll set up the archive. Jhfortier (talk · contribs ) 06:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Kratom cultivation

This is complete crap:

" When grown outside their natural tropical habitat, leaf fall occurs with colder temperatures, around 4 degrees Celsius"

Kratom would be DEAD at 4 C. I have been growing the plant for three years, and I have had wood plants die at 15 C! Also, then sentance is poorly written, the nature of whether they are in nature soil or not does not alter their sensitivity to cold, I am sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maozim (talk • contribs) 19:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

This page really needs some work!

I don't even know where to begin here... There is so much information that is unscientific, inaccurate, unsourced, etc, that most of the article is in need of a major overhaul. I'm not going to start this myself as reading over this talk page shows me that many people want to add subjective personal experiences or folklore as fact in this article. I see that for the better part of a decade people have been complaining of the quality of this article and having to go through and fix all of the innacuracies, and yet it has deteriorated to this low point yet again.

I can start working on this article if anyone wants to help me, but I'd really need to be assured that there is a dedicated effort to improving this article and removing the unscientific portions. There are not a large number of studies done on kratom, but I see many articles for drugs way less researched than kratom that are far more sound than this article... Debollweevil (talk) 14:11, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

What is this page about?

The Article starts out saying that Kratom is a leaf, then give sit a species name, then goes on to describe it as a plant, then describes it is a medicamant and so on and so forth. This is a complete mess. If the article is about a species then it should be about the species and titled accordingly. If it is about the leaf then the species information is inaccurate. And if it is about the medicament then both are wrong. Can we make up our minds here? Mark Marathon (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be about the species, seeing as "mitragyna speciosa" directs to this page... Other aspects can be discussed in appropriate sections. Debollweevil (talk) 19:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Intrahepathic colestasis after two weeks use

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21528385 -- Kraligor (talk) 23:11, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Life-threatening complications

From the article: "serious respiratory depression and life-threatening adverse events are very rare"

Has there *ever* been a documented case *from a reliable source* of life-threatening adverse events from kratom? If not, then "very rare" is an understatement... they're non-existent as far as anyone I know is aware. This statement needlessly makes kratom look more dangerous than it actually is, because despite the "very rare," people will see "life-threatening adverse events" and inherently think the plant is very dangerous.

209.134.115.5 (talk) 19:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

There are at least two reported cases of seizure shortly after kratom intake. I'll look them up when I find the time. --Kraligor (talk) 00:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 and here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20411370. In both cases, however, kratom was not the only possible cause for the seizure. -- Kraligor (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Therefore, it was most likely NOT the kratom that caused the seizure. Had it been, more than 2 freaking cases would have been reported. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.218.74 (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't the title of this article be "Kratom"? I know it says in the first para that the leaf is known as "kratom" but then it mentions "kratom trees", seems like a clear case of using a common name to me. - filelakeshoe 13:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Antioxidant and Anti-viral properties?

"Just recently, Kratom has been found to also Lower Blood Pressure, Cholesterol, Blood Sugar, and also helps your immune system with its antioxidant/antiviral properties." --What study is this statement referring to?
COice6 (talk) 10:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

PDFs on extraction of active constituents of Kratom leaf.

• In-Utero Effects of the Crude Ethanolic Extract of the Leaves of Mitragyna speciosa on Neural Tube Formation in Rats
• on new psychoactive substances/Kratom/Boyer2008_kratom-heroin-dependence.pdf Self-treatment of opioid withdrawal using kratom (Mitragynia speciosa korth)
• www.academicjournals.org/jmpr/PDF/pdf2012/16Feb/Senik_et_al.pdf Effect of acute administration of Mitragyna speciosa' Korth. standardized methanol extract in animal model of learning and memory']

There is an extraction process for mitragynine, and a conversion process to the active 7-hydroxymitragynine:

• The Malaysian Journal of Analytical Sciences, Vol 15 No 1: A simple and cost effective isolation and purification protocol of mitragynine from Mitragyna speciosa korth (ketum) leaves. - leaf to mitragynine

• Chemistry and Pharmacology of Analgesic Indole Alkaloidsfrom the Rubiaceous Plant, Mitragyna speciosa. - mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine.

Nagelfar (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3