Talk:Moebius syndrome

Sources

• "Seeking Emotional Clues Without Facial Cues" by Benedict Carey, New York Times, 5 April 2010

Suggested page name change

Hi,

I have Moebius Syndrome, and I can tell you that "Moebius" is much more common than "Möbius." For example, the leading Moebius Syndrome advocacy organization is the Moebius Syndrome Foundation, and on Twitter, #MoebiusSyndrome] is much more active than. It's also customary to capitalize the 's' in 'Syndrome.'

BenDMyers (talk) 01:38, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree. This needs to be corrected. Moebius is the proper spelling 76.30.133.9 (talk) 22:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The spelling of this page should be "Moebius" with an 'e'

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

An RM was started; findings and arguments should be presented in the RM to keep the future participants informed and to enable them to respond.—Alalch E. 01:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

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I saw someone started a thread 8 years ago and no action was taken. Hopefully we can have this corrected soon. It is basically medical misinformation to have it mispelled as 'Mobius' without the 'e'.

For the sake of consistency with all other official spellings in the English language, the spelling with 'e' should be used.

Here are the citations from respected sources

Cleveland Clinic National Institute of Health (US) Medline

I am new to wikipedia, so if anyone has the power to do it, please do. Moebiusdad (talk) 23:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

References

There are scientific papers that use one spelling, others that use the other spelling; there is no formal/uniform spelling of it. What is needed, however, is a redirect of the other spelling to be put in place, so that it doesn't matter which way it's spelled, you arrive at this page. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 00:07, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

[ec]@Moebiusdad: Hello! I am not so sure that renaming this page is needed. This looks like something that a few more editors should take a look at. —Alalch E. 00:08, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

BTW, when spelled without an 'e', it isn't spelled "Mobius" but "Möbius" (with the Umlaut (diacritic)), after the German neurologist Paul Julius Möbius. It appears that the article has got, and retained, the current name because some editor or editors, like the editor above me, believe that it is correct or at least equally correct as "Moebius". —Alalch E. 00:10, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Still, it may be that according to our naming conventions, a better title would be Moebius Syndrome. But it is not so obvious. —Alalch E. 00:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Renaming the page is absolutely needed. The most common spelling in the English language is "MOEBIUS", not Möbius, Mobius, or Möebius.

I agree redirects should be used from the less common spelling to the more common spelling.

Cleveland Clinic, NIH.gov, Johns Hopkins, Moebius Syndrome Foundation, as well as many UK government websites all use the "Moebius" spelling. What more sources do you need in order to allow this change? I am not sure why some of you folks are so adamant on using the less common, incorrect spelling. It is basically medical misinformation and confusion to allow the spelling as Mobius when every other source has Moebius. Moebiusdad (talk) 00:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@Moebiusdad: You may have a point. Would you start a proper discussion about moving the page? It starts with your proposal to move, which is then considered by editors, and if a consensus forms to move, the page is moved. The instructions for how to do this are at WP:RSPM (you need to insert a specific code, with the fields filled out as explained, into this page, in a new section at the end of this page). —Alalch E. 00:31, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know the proper procedure. I have initiated the discussion Moebiusdad (talk) 00:48, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I'm fine with either Moebius or Möbius, since sources use both, but it should definitely not be Möebius, which is just incorrect. But I agree that there should be redirects that lead all four spellings here. CodeTalker (talk) 00:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Can we change it to "Moebius"? As it is the most common spelling in English speaking languages? Moebiusdad (talk) 00:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, on more careful review, this article has 18 sources. Ten of them use Möbius and eight use Moebius, so it doesn't seem as clear-cut as you are presenting it. A simple headcount of the sources would argue for Möbius. Google search gives 30,900 hits for Möbius and 119,000 for Moebius, which would argue the reverse, although Google races are not a very good metric. Google ngrams shows Moebius more common in books up to about 2010, when Möbius became more common for a few years, and then Moebius again became somewhat more common.[1] I'm not sure what to make of that. I'm on the fence and I'd like to hear more input from other editors. CodeTalker (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

A big factor is that in the english language, we dont use the umlaut, so that puts me in the Moebius camp. Also, all the literature I have read on Moebius uses the english spelling "Moebius". The two nonprofits I know of who focus on Moebius (Many Faces of Moebius Syndrome and Moebius Syndrome Foundation) all use the "Moebius" spelling. It seems pretty clear that the most common associated spelling in english speaking countries is "Moebius" and I think wikipedia should reflect that. Moebiusdad (talk) 00:53, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. Hadal (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

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Möbius syndrome → Moebius syndrome – For the sake of consistency with all other spellings in the English language, the spelling of Moebius with an 'e' and 'o' instead of 'ö' should be used.

Example: It should be "Moebius syndrome"

- not "Möbius" (this is a legitimate spelling but it is not common in the English language)

- not "Möebius"

- not "Mobius"

Here are a few citations from respected sources

Cleveland Clinic National Institute of Health (US)

Medline

References

Moebiusdad (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• What about the UK institutions? —Alalch E. 00:46, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Moebius syndrome is spelled the same in America, England and Australia Moebiusdad (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm leaning moving, but I'll think about it a bit more. This process takes around seven days. Regards—Alalch E. 01:02, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Note to participants: Some relevant points were raised in the above pre-RM discussion. —Alalch E. 01:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I dunno, just repeatedly saying it's the most common spelling with the only evidence being a few places that do use that spelling isn't very persuasive. I think my analysis at the end of the previous section is more relevant, and shows that Moebius is probably slightly more common than Möbius, but not by a large margin. I'm leaning slightly towards moving, but I could easily be convinced otherwise. CodeTalker (talk) 01:07, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

As you mentioned earlier, Google search results for “Moebius syndrome” far exceed those for “Möbius syndrome”. I listed only a sample of sources, but I’ve been reading a lot of medical literature on the subject and I have never seen it spelled as Mobius. I’ve also previously cited the two American nonprofits on this subject “moebius syndrome foundation” and “many faces of moebius” who use the moebius spelling Moebiusdad (talk) 02:31, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Google search result counts are not an acceptable proxy. Nine of the eighteen sources already cited in the article - most scientific research papers - spell it Mobius. Please review them for yourself. There is clearly no consensus - either in the sources themselves or here on WP, for the "correct" spelling. As I suggested, all that is needed is a proper redirect of Moebius to this article. If there is insistence that this page be changed to Moebius, then I would "insist" that a redirect from Mobius point to the new name. Seeing as the condition gets its name from Paul Julius Möbius, it seems fanciful to suggest that any other spelling is "correct". cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 02:55, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually ten of the 18 sources use Möbius. Ref #11 doesn't have the name in its title but uses the Möbius spelling in the body of the page.

Perhaps it's marginally relevant that Möbius is the usual spelling for the Möbius strip, which is probably the most well-known use of that surname in English. We do have redirects for both Mobius strip, which is sometimes used, and Moebius strip, which is very uncommon. CodeTalker (talk) 03:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I was just being lazy about the umlaut! :) cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 03:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

“ Möbius” being used for Möbius strip is appropriate bc that is how it is known and I would not advocate for that to be changed. But in English speaking countries, Moebius syndrome is almost always spelled with an e and no umlaut and rarely spelled with the umlaut. This is a rare enough disease and for the sake of educating people properly, the common name should be used. Moebiusdad (talk) 04:42, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

So you are saying that half of the 18 listed references spell it one way, but we could easily increase the sample size and add more references that spell it Moebius if that would convince you. As mentioned previously, the two nonprofits in America that support people with this condition spell it Moebius. I’ve been doing a lot of research on this syndrome the past two months and honestly the only place I’ve read it as Mobius is on Wikipedia. Seeing as how the umlaut isn’t even really in the English language, I’m not sure why there is so much debate against using the moebius spelling. Moebiusdad (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Please, assume good faith. Nowhere have I said that it should not be renamed. I have provided information that is different from yours. I think the fact that it's named after Paul Julius Möbius is an important data point. Also, the lack of the umlaut in english is also an important data point, as you brought up. I do not object to the renaming, as I stated further up. I think it is crucial however that if this page is renamed, appropriate redirects are put in place for the variations on the name. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 05:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME based on the Google Ngrams. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:03, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support conditioned upon appropriate redirects put in place for Mobius syndrome and Möbius syndrome after move. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 05:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NCMED (ICD-10 uses "Moebius"). Both variants are recognized names in medical sources, but the proposed variant has become significantly more common. —Alalch E. 12:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
• Question The body of the article uses "Möbius syndrome" 48 times, and "Moebius syndrome" twice. This RFC is about moving the title of the article. If done, the body of the article would starkly disagree with the title. Do we need another RFC to decide whether to change all instances of "Möbius syndrome" to "Moebius syndrome" in the text of the article? CodeTalker (talk) 19:03, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, what is the process for that? I’m unfamiliar Moebiusdad (talk) 19:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think it's problematic - either before or after the move - the change most instances to Moebius, only retaining in the first sentence, and when referring specifically to Dr. Möbius. Oh - and of course, if a source/reference uses Mobius or Möbius, that needs to be retained. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 20:46, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I was actually surprised, but this does appear to be overwhelmingly the commonest form in both British and American English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:17, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.