Talk:Molly Morgan

Possible future refs

• "Maitland 200 Years with Mindaribba Local Aboriginal Land Council and Maitland and District Historical Society". Maitland Mercury. September 13, 2018. Retrieved 14 October 2018.
• Oliver, Marina (2016). To a Far Country. Lulu.com. p. 219. ISBN 1326791532. Retrieved 14 October 2018.
• Maitland (N.S.W.). Council (September 16, 2009). Maitland: 1863-1963. Oswald Ziegler for the Council of the City of Maitland. p. 11. Retrieved 14 October 2018.

--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 22:15, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I've added reference 1. After looking into the matter further, reference 2 appears to be self-published, so it isn't reliable. I'll add the third ref when I get the chance. Here are some more books that I found which might be useful:--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 22:15, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

• The Australian Encyclopaedia (3 ed.). Grolier Society of Australia. 1977. p. 231. ISBN 0959660402. Retrieved 21 October 2018.
• McKenzie, Valerie (1982). The Passing Parade of Picnics & Pleasures: Early Australian Times. Centennial Publications. p. 54. ISBN 0959498222. Retrieved 21 October 2018.
• Shipley, John (2017). A-Z of Curious Shropshire: Strange Stories of Mysteries, Crimes and Eccentrics. The History Press. ISBN 0750983175. Retrieved 24 October 2018.

I've now added the Maitland book to the article, and I've added another book to the above list.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 22:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I've added everything now, except, as I mentioned, the To a Far Country one.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 16:00, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Page numbers needed

Hey The Rambling Man; thanks for the copy-edits you made to the article; super-helpful. In response to the {{page numbers needed}} tag you added, I actually have page numbers for every single of the refs within either the {{sfn}}s or the bibliography section that need them (e.g. books)... with the exception of the A-Z of Curious Shropshire: Strange Stories of Mysteries, Crimes and Eccentrics. For that book I'm actually just using Google Books as it provides so much of the content I need, rather than just the plain whole book in print. Apparently, for this one book, Google Books doesn't show the page numbers, which is annoying. I would try to count it from the beginning, but all books have different places where the numbers start or what they start at, so that wouldn't really be an accurate measure. Another similar circumstance came up for another article I wrote, where I ended up citing the book's chapter and linked to the Google Books display when searching for the subject's title within the book, which may be what I'll have to do here. Cheers, --SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 13:48, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I've now done what I said above about the chapter title and link to "Molly Morgan" search. Do you think that's sufficient? If not, do you have any ideas or do you think I'd need to ask someone who has this book for the exact page numbers the information is taken from?--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 22:08, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I suspect the book you're using online is the Kindle version, which doesn't seem to have page numbers. In which case, the ISBN etc is all out of whack. I think using the Google search results and the page numbers that throws up is better than nothing, but it probably doesn't reflect the version of the book you're suggesting is being used to verify the claims. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it doesn't show the page numbers with a Google search either and I can't find another version of this available on Google books, so it doesn't look like having the exact page numbers for the book is going to work without contacting someone who has the book.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 03:00, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Molly Morgan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ceranthor (talk · contribs) 20:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I'll take this on for review. ceranthor 20:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for being willing to review Ceranthor! I have a slightly busy schedule this week but unless the issue list is extremely long, I should be able to get it done by the end of the week; I'll let you know if I can't. I'd be happy to see any improvement suggestions you have for the article!--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 03:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Prose

Lead

• "She was born as Mary Jones in England" - I'd add something more specific than just the country; just a nitpick though

•  Done. Specified Ludlow, Shropshire.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "and William was eventually caught and transported as well." - to the same institution?

• I have a few more details in the body of the article: William was caught again and this time was deported to Australia; Molly received permission to join him after he arrived.[6] Both of them worked in Sydney, William on labour gangs and Molly in a factory. Do you think that I should explain that better in the lead? I already have " After working together for a while in Australia."--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "William left Molly due to her flirting" - bit too vague; maybe be a little more explicit if the source allows? and should probably mention flirting with other men explicitly too

•  Partly done. I'll have to take a deeper look at the sources once I can get to my laptop but I don't recall them including more details about her flirting than what I already have. I did add "with other men" to the sentence for clarity.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Don't think anything I have gives anymore details about the flirting; the most details I have is the A-Z of Curious Shropshire: Strange Stories of Mysteries, Crimes and Eccentrics book ref (https://books.google.com/books?id=lGAvDwAAQBAJ&q=Molly+Morgan#v=snippet&q=Molly%20Morgan&f=false), which says "with Will, who quarreled with her because of her constant flirting and finally dumped her." I already had (and still have) the details about quarreling/arguing in the article, but not in the lead. Do you think I should add it to the lead as well? I don't want to make it too long and detailed, though, as it is supposed to be just a summary after all.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• No, I think that's fine. ceranthor 14:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• "after her husband's house was burnt down and she was accused of the incident in 1803.[b]" - could cut out the verbiage by saying "after she was accused of burning her husband's house down in 1803" or something similar

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "159 acres" - a {{convert}} would be nice if possible; I see it's used further down

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Early life

• "and became most commonly known as such throughout her life.[4] " - seems like you could cut some words out here without losing any meaning

• Are you thinking just cut out the second part of the sentence completely? That could work, as "from childhood" generally implies that she was primarily known as that for the rest of her life.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• What about - "and became known as that for the rest of her life". ceranthor 01:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Sure, works for me;  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 01:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• "The couple had two children.[4][6][8]" - names known or no?

• Pretty sure that the sources don't specify, but once I'm on a larger device other than my phone I can look harder.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• A search doesn't seem to bring up the names of her children. I could try asking around to see if anyone can find anything behind paywalls or try even harder searches once I get back home from my short trip away (I'm on my laptop now) if you really think this would be required in order to pass the GA.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Ok, I'm back at my house now so I've searched harder and here's what I found. This source specifies that their names were James and Mary, but seems pretty unreliable so I'm not going to use it. I was also able to find this, which says the same thing; it seems to have been created by a research group at a university, but I can't find any information about the publisher. This source doesn't mention their names but has more details about when they were born and such, but I'm a little bit unsure about its reliability.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 22:07, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• No big deal. Not a dealbreaker! ceranthor 01:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Sentencing and convict life

• "and it was discovered to be hidden at their house." - any indication by whom? (Who found it?)

• Haven't been able to find more details about this; a ton of sources mention that it was "discovered" or "found" at the home of the Morgans or something similar, but nothing that I can find seems to mention who did it.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Got it. If you could make that more clear, I'd tweak it a bit. ceranthor 01:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• @Ceranthor: Don't mean to be thick here, but what do you think would be the best way to tweak it to make it clearer? As I mentioned, the sources don't get any more detailed than simply "discovered."--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 01:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• You weren't being thick. I think it's fine as is, actually. So no change needed at this point. ceranthor 14:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Molly was committed for trial" - not familiar with this idiom; what does it mean to "commit someone for trial"

•  Done. Changed it to "tried."--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Her trial was used as an example of what would happen if other thieves performed a similar action as Morgan, a 'special case.'[7]" - is "special case" a quotation? If so, it should use quotation marks rather than apostrophes

•  Done; changed to quotes.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Subsequently, Morgan was sentenced" - subsequently doesn't add much here, and could be cut

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "164 of them died during the voyage, mostly from starvation and neglect,[6][8] and almost half of the convicts died either on the ship or shortly after arriving at shore.[4] " - just trying to do some accounting here; is the second bit about half of the 164 or the total group?

•  Done; the second option is correct. Let me know if you think the new wording is sloppy or if this needs to be clarified any further.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "upon arrival.[3][4] Shortly after arriving at Botany Bay in Sydney, New South Wales, on 28 June 1790," - nitpick, but you repeat "arrive" in some form in very close proximity here

•  Done. Hopefully you think what I've done now is better; if you don't, specific suggestions would be much appreciated.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "A total of 136 females, of which 6 died while on the ship, and 2 males" - lots of separation here before you reach the verb... maybe reword the sentence?

•  Done; reworded.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Ticket of leave is not linked at its first mention

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Life in Australia

• "Morgan established a settlement in the land she was given at Wallis Plains and was successful with farming the land in the area" -was successful with farming... why not "became a successful farmer"?

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Morgan was unofficially given the title "Queen of the Hunter Valley"[3], or "Queen of the Hunter River."[4]" - any idea where this originated?

• The Southern Highland News ref (https://www.southernhighlandnews.com.au/story/3179651/molly-morgan-convict-to-queen/) says that she was "hailed by society's underdogs as "the Queen of the Hunter Valley." I could try incorporating that into the article if you'd like.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Nope, what you have is fine. ceranthor 01:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• "She also looked after an orphan and a blind man sometime in her life, according to the census of 1828.[9]" - not sure how much this adds, since it seems pretty fragmentary and therefore crufty

•  Done; removed.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Later life and death

• "which was the largest published obituary at the time,[9]" - ever? or in the area?

• "And after Molly died, her obituary is the largest ever published up to that time and it praises her" is what the source says (https://www.theherald.com.au/story/5517761/meet-the-hunters-queen-of-true-grit/); I'll specify in the article when I get the chance.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

•  Done, simply added the word "ever."--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 23:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

References and Notes

• The Australian Dictionary of Biography seems fine, but what makes [1] a reliable author/expert on the matter? What are her credentials?

• I'm pretty sure the Australian Dictionary of Biography is generally regarded as a very reliable source. I don't know the exact details about all this specific author has done but I don't see a reason to question the reliability of the ref.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 00:10, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Little skeptical of the A-Z of Curious Shropshire book in terms of reliability.

• Hmm; I've thought about that, actually. What precisely makes you skeptical of its suitability? Do you think the issue is with the author? The publisher? I haven't looked very closely at the author, but it seems to have a decent publisher and most of the information supported by the source is supported by other sources except for a few cases where it just ties up loose ends. I personally would think it would be good enough for a GA, but I'll try to see if I can do something else if you don't think it is.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 00:10, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• ""AMAZING STORY OF MOLLY MORGAN. Early Hunter Pioneer". The Cessnock Eagle and South Maitland Recorder. 1 October 1948. p. 5. Retrieved 14 November 2018." - the title shouldn't be captalized, for consistency

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• In note a, Maitland Mercury should be italicized

•  Done.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Planning to do spotchecks at some point where possible.
• Earwig's tool checks out. ceranthor 01:01, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Update - happy with the refs now. ceranthor 01:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Images

• Not an issue, thankfully! :)

• Yeah, unfortunately I haven't been able to find any good images of her so far in my searches.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 19:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Looks to be in good shape. Once these are addressed, I will run through once more and post spotchecks/any additional prose comments. ceranthor 18:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Ceranthor; super helpful! I believe I've responded to all of the issues in some form now; I've done the majority of them but there are a few for which I have queries for you or can't do.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 00:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

@SkyGazer 512: I'm happy with the progress. Let me check refs once more and then I think I can pass this tomorrow. ceranthor 01:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Done the edit regarding the "known as Molly" thing; I have left you a question about the best way to tweak the wording of "discovered to be hidden at their house." I also still have a question about the flirting thing. Thanks for your suggestions to improve the article and for providing such a good review; it's much appreciated.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 01:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

@SkyGazer 512: Passing this - let me know if I missed any of your replies. ceranthor 00:56, 2 December 2018 (UTC)