Talk:Moshing

A "Wall of Death" technically isn't a dance or "mosh" per se, but rather a way for the band(usually requested by the singer/vocalist) to get the crowd to start moshing. The performer tells the crowd to separate into two sides, usually by exclaiming "Wall of Death," and the crowd will split like the Red Sea for Moses. After the crowd has separated into the two halves, he then will start a countdown or the band will begin a riff to build up suspense. The vocalist might use this time to rile the crowd up by telling the crowd to "kill" each other or some such exaggeration. After this, the vocalist will give the "green light" or the song will begin, and the two sides will rush toward each other and collide, moshing to their heart's content. This style of crowd interaction is usually found in venues where Punk, Metal, or any subgenre within these are being played.

Rewrite (Feb 07)

Suggested revisions

• could use a complete re-write
  • I came to this article hoping for an amusingly well-written account of moshing, but was pretty bummed by the content of the article. If I get the time, I'm gonna rewrite from scratch with a few references, rather than keeping this large page of unreferenced junk. I also added two free images and put some stuff in the external links for later use. - Phorque 19:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • A rewrite might be in need, but I think removing the section on the origins of the term and style were unnecessary. I'm putting them back in with the understanding they need references and citations. I don't think the article should be "an amusingly well-written account of moshing," but an explanation of the term, the dance, its origins, and its role in music sub cultures. Dpetley 12:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Reinstated the sections on the origins of the term and style. Again, did so with the understanding future citations will be needed. Deleting this section and not others seemed arbitrary. Citations to come. Dpetley 12:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• This definitely needs a serious rewrite to expand it to cover all the positive aspects of moshing and also because this is exactly the type of topic Wikipedia was created for--a topic that is unlikely to get good coverage in print media. Isn't there some way--besides the Talk page--that for this sort of topic personal experiences (original research, I guess you have to call that can be agglomerated as well as sourced materials?) Werner.Lohe@gmail.com WLohe (talk) 19:42, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Concern over obvious subjectivity

This article needs clean-up and can hopefully not get mired down in overly subjective arguments about the difference between mallcore, hardcore, and "true" punk. I erased many of the editorialized comments that were mere expressions of preference. Examples of this have included:

Differences between UK and America

This section is full of unsubstantiated nonsense which has no place in an encyclopedia.

Pardon me for butting in, but based on first-hand experience of moshing, I'd have to say that the supposed 'differences' are arbitrary and that moshing can't be split down such lines; it has much more to do with the band or style of music being played, the nature of the venue and the demographics of those in the audience.

By way of a for-instance, myself and my girlfriend attended the 4th March Nine Inch Nails concert at Birmingham's Carling Academy (go to the article here for more info) and noticed a big difference between the crowd's reaction to the opening act Ladytron (enthusiastic, but more sedentary,) and the main event.

Also, during NIN's setlist, round about March of the Pigs or possibly Ruiner, my girlfriend twisted her ankle on the metal footplate near the front of the barrier and another concert-goer jumped on her injured foot, spraining it. Whether it was accidental or deliberate notwithstanding, I doubt that this or similar incidents are any less or more likely to occur in one country or the other.

So, in simple terms, the section might as well be deleted.

AdZ 15:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe, but it's not included in the article, that the origin of "MOSH" came from the term "Millions of Shit Heads" meaning the general audience. A "Mosh Pit" and then "Moshing" was developed from that. 12.12.215.47 (talk) 19:06, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Don't call it moshing

Metalheads Mosh. Punks refer to it as Pitting. Moshing is where the individual throws the horns, and rocks their head back and forth flailing their long hair around. Punks don't do that. A circle pit, is called a pit for a reason. --FACT50 19:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are doing this in 2006 you are at best imitating and it is clear you do not know what you do not know. Anyone under 45 who says they are a 'punk' is at best a LARPer. If you want to say something defining, create it yourself we did. ~spin~

Got a WP:RS for that claim? Because it's interesting how many punk concerts place restrictions on moshing techniques if no moshing is actually occurring... --tjstrf Now on editor review! 19:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Your an idiot my friend. what you are referring to is Headbanging. the name kinda gives it away eh? and Moshing covers pretty much everything from Slam Dancing and Skanking to Hardcore Dancing.172.143.100.113 04:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC) if you wish to call people idiots than at least say your're an idiot. ~spin~

Skanking = Slam Dancing = Hardcore Dancing... ≈ Maurauth ^(09F9) 08:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Who gives a shit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.133.190 (talk) 00:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC) '

Strong co-sign! No wonder all the angry white men who do the moshing (and, yes, they are 135% white men, contrary to the fantasies of some on this page that any woman or non-binary person would want to get within throwing range of any of these angry white boys) are so angry--they have to remember and follow so many unwritten rules of masculinity, like "DON'T CALL IT MOSHING WAAAAAHH!" and "DON'T FORGET TO SLAM INTO ALL THE OTHER SHIRTLESS WHITE MEN VERY HARD TO PROVE HOW MANLY YOU ARE AND HOW MANY CHICKS YOU ACTUALLY DO FUCK WHEN YOU AREN'T THRASHING AROUND WITH DRUNK FRAT-BROS."

This article needs ALOT of work. First off, MOSH stands for March of the Skin Heads, and I first heard it at shows in NYC in 1985. Only skins would MOSH, and it was not a racist thing, since there were skins of all colors. The MOSH pit was sperate from the slamdance pit. I believe it was Mike Gitter, who wrote for metal mags in the 80's, the mis-used the term for a slamdancing. 2nd, MOSH started in NYC, with bands like Agnostic Front, not the Bad Brains. As for the Black Flag and other HB bands would have people slamming, or doing the "Creepy Crawl". Scream, the DC area band had nothing to do with MOSHing getting started either. As for slam dancing at non-punk rock shows, most would agree, it was due to MTV playing videos of grunge wave of band that made people outside of the punk scene aware of stage diving and slamming. As before, it was due to the idiots at MTV who mis-used the term MOSH for any kind of dancing in the pit.

Your opinion is well and fine; do you have any references for your assertions? I don't entirely disagree with you, but without anything to back up your claims, there's nothing we can do. Also, please sign your posts and place them in the appropriate section. I moved this from the bottom. Dpetley 23:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The terms 'moshing', 'pits', 'slam dancing' don't really beg the question where/how or why they began. Certainly here in the UK in the 70's and early 80's, they came about from the natural adrenaline/cider fueled reaction to intensely loud and fast music in a tiny venue where you couldnt help but bang into people all around you. I think this subject is futile in that its looking for answers that should just be obvious in the first place.

Also, if it helps the piece on the main page concerning Anthrax paragraph.. The title of the song "caught in a mosh" was taken from Anthrax's tour manager exiting the crowd, visibly worse for wear with his hair all over the place and his glasses hanging off his head. Obviously I can't site this, but I certainly remember reading it in an interview with Scott Ian (Metal Hammer magazine, uk) just after they brought out "Spreading the Disease" LP. Cheers. --Loui.91.110.71.234 (talk) 21:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

POV

The article is extremely biased against "moshers". It suggests that they intentionally act violently towards people performing Hardcore moves. I'm editing to remove some of the bias. I'll still keep in the information about friction between the two groups though. 87.102.12.10 19:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Picg.

• Are there actually references for this rivalry? It really sounds like OR to me, but I don't go to many metalcore shows so maybe I just don't know. At any rate, it still needs a ref. --aguasde13013 kickin' it just for you 22:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed the commentary about metalcore shows being a site of animosoty between "metalheads" and "hardcore kids," as it was anecdotal and not an NPOV. The information was interesting, but needs better language and less POV. A citation would be nice, too. Dpetley 15:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

As an old guy I am really concerned about the alleged origin. There is confusion between pogoing and slam dancing -- the first term that really described the practice. Pogoing might have included random contact, but slam dancing is what created the 'pit.' You could pogo at a disco (yea it was done) but slam dancing was for the brave at live shows. At 6'4" and 200+lbs I was often in the pit. Slam dancing gave us space. As for etiqutee, come on !! if someone was too agressive slam dancing they stayed down. If they tried to stage dive we didn't catch them, they hit the floor, hard. S&M gear -- spiked collars/gloves etc were part of the gear. Maybe this is subjective; however, this is best based on real accounts of what happenned. Detroit and NYC (esp. alphabet city) in the late 70's early 80's defined the concept. Anything you discuss after 1985 is at best imitation/adaptation. Give me a break, someone died at a smashing pumpkins concert because there was bad crowd management and they got crushed -- don't call it moshing and it certainly isn't slam dancing -- they were barely born when it was happening for real. Maybe this should be broken into two articles. One on 'moshing': jamming together trying to get close to the stage and one on the slam dancing origin. I read this as it stands and was confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.36.240.11 (talk) 12:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Re: "The dance style originated in the hardcore punk scenes of California and Washington, D.C. around 1980, thereafter spreading from hardcore to other forms of punk rock....." - Rubbish. I was living in London in 1978 where it was happening, except we just called it 'slamming'. Also, I go with 'unsigned' (194.36.240.11) on etiquette, the crowd looked after itself. We were there to ENJOY the adrenaline rush and passively discouraged anyone who got nasty. The crowd just took less care with such people & allowed them to get hurt, generally by their own actions. Rarely a definite act, we just knew that down on the floor was a tough place to be in a slam and became more reluctant to cushion their fall & got slower in helping them up. kimdino (talk) 16:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

History of the term and dance style

Reorganized the history section to include an explanation of the term "mosh" and an explanation of the dance style's origins.Dpetley 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Moshing vs. slamdancing

Toward the beginning of this article, someone wrote "While many use the terms slamdancing and moshing interchangeably, distinctions can be made between the two," and then didn't explain anything about said differences.

There's an outside link that I'm guessing is supposed to talk more about it, but I think some of that information should be synthesized and included on this Wikipedia page. It only makes sense that after you make a claim you support it by elaborating with at least one sentence, especially because it's something I (and many others, I'm sure) are curious about. ----Chartreuse —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chartreuse 1986 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Moshing is almost an exclusively metal term. It involves the "circle pit" and a more violent experience resulting in more physical harm. Slam Dancing is a Punk Rock concert experience that usually only appears violent and is kind of a colorful parody of dancing at concerts. Members of the Punk culture, in my experience, detest the word "mosh" as it is so closely associated with metal. A scene that many subcultures (Punk, Goth, etc.) do not wish to be associated with. Of course, knowing wikipedia's rigid position on having citations from elite sources, none of this information will matter. 98.31.20.15 (talk) 15:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I've rewritten parts of the introduction to flow better, and have used the terms "moshing" and "slamdancing" as synonymous with one another. The references I'm familiar with and personal experience have lead me to this usage; I'll continue to edit this page as if the terms were interchangeable until an accessible and reputable citation can show otherwise. Agree with above comments that if there are distinctions between slamdancing and moshing, they need to be explained here. Dpetley 10:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to edit this since I have nothing but my own personal experience as a source, but..... In 1980 (I think), having never seen slamdancing in Boston where I lived, I experienced it for the first time in a punk club in Chinatown in San Francisco. Early in the week with fewer than a dozen people on the dance floor of a small club, men and women very gently banged shoulders into each other--like later slamdancing in slow motion. Within a couple of months more typical slamdancing appeared in Boston at small clubs. This was well before hardcore (the music) appeared; the first hardcore shows were at least a year or two later in Boston--and skinheads were slamming from the start--not gently anymore--I remember the most aggressive guy in one of the first loft parties slamming with a milk crate upside down over his head. Someone needs to document the gentler origins of slamming as well as the highly supportive forms that survive today--e.g., a great mosh pit at the Mighty Mighty BossTones show December 29, 2013. If there were a couple of other independent recollections of my 1980 SF experience, would that be enough to get us past the Wikipedia fact-checkers? werner.lohe@gmail.com WLohe (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Types and forms of moshing (skanking, thrash, etc)

Skanking was removed by an unregistered username (71.111.154.176) with the explanation: "Removed Skanking as a variation of moshing, it predates moshing by quite a bit." I reinstated skanking as a type of mosh. The dance affiliated with ska is different though there are similarities (two-stepping, for example). But skanking is also practiced in a hardcore form. Despite the argument that skanking emerged separately and earlier from moshing, the term skanking is now used by and in hardcore scenes to describe a certain type of mosh. Therefore, it should stay. Dpetley 19:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This is incorrect, skanking, and "MOSH"ing are both forms of slam dancing.

This is really important. There was a time (especially on the west coast) when "Skanking" was used to describe what went on in the pit. "MOSH"ing is another Jamaican term for dancing (as in "Mosh it up"). At some point "Mosh" replaced "Skank" as the term of choice. There is nothing about "Wetlands" in the history of the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mthai66 (talk • contribs) 14:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The pogo?

User Daddy Kindsoul writes June 2, 2007 "the pogo dance of the 70s isn't actually full on moshing (subject of this article) itself, full moshing begins with hardcore as article states." I think he's correct. However, I think this article really needs to be expanded into a broader discussion of how moshing came to be. Such an article would include information on the pogo. I will admit some bias: I'd rather lump the various dances discussed here (skanking, moshing, slamdancing, thrashing, two-stepping, hardcore dancing, etc) into the larger category of simply "mosh," and explain their subtleties as needed. As it standing now, there are articles on all of these separately, many of which duplicate information. Can we work to put them all into a larger context and try to create an article that relates them all together?Dpetley 19:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. See my comment in "Moshing v. S....," above. Pogoing, though closely related, had origins more in concert halls than clubs. WLohe (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

John Fern and Michael Palmer

The third paragraph about these two looks highly suspect to me. Is there a citation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.100.193.115 (talk) 03:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

SLAM DANCING PRECEDES MOSHING As a kid who got into punk in the late '70s on the East Coast, I can testify that 'slam dancing' was in use long before 'moshing' and in fact before hardcore even existed. This distinction is mentioned frequently in books about the early days of punk, most recently, I think, in the John Doe anthology of memoir pieces about the LA scene. (Which I'll cite with any change I make to the article). The style was quite different as well. RobotBoy66 (talk) 08:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Mosh etiquette section

Considering adding a section regarding mosh etiquette. Dpetley 15:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. At the moment the article has an extremely negative tone and seems to focus on the dangers of moshing (an entire section devoted to people dying in mosh pits) and stating that moshing has gotten more violent over time. A balancing section on mosh pit etiquette would be a huge improvement. As would some sort of mention that in most pits (at least in my experience) the general atmosphere is friendly and welcoming unless you're there to cause trouble. Yes your welcoming people to have other people slamming into them and yes some people will get hurt because of that but the purpose of a mosh pit is not to injure other people. 144.124.16.28 10:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

We should add a section about the rules of moshing. So people if they wanna learn about moshing before they do it, for some strange reason, we should add it. like holding stuff up in the air if it gets dropped, Helping people who fall, stuff like that The Clydelishes Clyde 23:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

If you look in the lead section there is a quick mention of moshing 'etiqutte' and a refrence to a bigger example. ≈ Maurauth ^{(talktome)(wha?)} 09:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I mentioned in the introduction section there should be an addition of "mosh etiquette." I think it is important to explain such a proposed section as "etiquette" rather than rules. This might help to lend a sense of subjectivity and cultural relativism to the matter. The "rules" of moshing vary greatly. I'm moving this discussion to fall under the initial mention of mosh etiquette. Dpetley 20:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a section on practice and etiquette, probably about 2 weeks ago. I felt the article needed it, as this isn't terribly informative about moshing itself. I realize my viewpoint is limited (and there isn't really much source material to back it up), I figured people who have more info could touch it up, but it was deleted altogether. I'm wondering if there's a legitimate reason for that.

Soilwork 9:10, 16 January 2008

The simple thing is, if you don't have a reference and you're not stating the obvious, it's original research. I'm sure at least some of the references listed mention the etiquette in more detail, and if you want to add that section, base it directly on one or a few of those, including the referencing. - Phorque (talk) 13:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

A Section on etiquette would be very important. Also, this article is terribly deficient in over-emphasizing negative, dangerous aspects of moshing--rather than the very positive, communal aspects. I'm reluctant to edit this since I have nothing but my own personal experience as a source, but..... Origins are important to show the positive, communal aspects of slamming/moshing. In 1980 (I think), having never seen slamdancing in Boston where I lived, I experienced it for the first time in a punk club in Chinatown in San Francisco. Early in the week with fewer than a dozen people on the dance floor of a small club, men and women very gently banged shoulders into each other--like later slamdancing in slow motion. Within a couple of months more typical slamdancing appeared in Boston at small clubs. This was well before hardcore (the music) appeared; the first hardcore shows were at least a year or two later in Boston--and skinheads were slamming from the start--not gently anymore--I remember the most aggressive guy in one of the first loft parties slamming with a milk crate upside down over his head. Someone needs to document the gentler origins of slamming as well as the highly supportive forms that survive today--e.g., a great mosh pit at the Mighty Mighty BossTones show December 29, 2013. If there were a couple of other independent recollections of my 1980 SF experience, would that be enough to get us past the Wikipedia fact-checkers? werner.lohe@gmail.com WLohe (talk) 19:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

"very positive, communal" lol. If anything, this article does too much by way of compliment for this destructive, uncreative, hypermasculine, performative anger. Like calling it "dancing" and pretending it's perfectly neurotypical, instead of a symptom of a disorder exclusively for toxic white men who either are missing out on (1) a mainstream place to violently bugger each other (which is what they really want) and/or (2) the creative/intellectual part of their brains that other people use to relieve their anger without hurting other people in the process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14F:4402:6800:DCF2:9AD9:94C1:5E78 (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Mainstream usage of the term and dance

FWIW, moshing also occurs at Cypress Hill concerts who play neither Punk nor Metal but Hip-Hop. The moshing there is actually very, err, extensive. --EnOreg 22:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added a section on the mainstream crossover of moshing. It needs revision and work, but will address many of the concerns addressed like the one about Cyprus Hill above.Dpetley (talk) 22:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Styles and Forms of Moshing Section should be added

Is Moshing a Style of Dance?

Moshing always seems to be more of a fight than a dance. Usually, everyone's fighting to get closer to the stage, so the crowd gets extremely tight together. People get pushed out of other people's ways.

Moshing isn't a form of expression through body movements, it's a fight. MrBanana 02:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I take it youve never been in a pit? Its dancing. I suggest you try it - Leo

No, I've been in a pit quite a few times, but it doesn't look like any sort of dancing to me, it looks more like people are struggling to get closer to the stage.

The definintion of Dancing: "To move rhythmically usually to music" -- so technically, moshing is dancing, because thats exactly what your doing. On a funny note, ive been in pits and the band will change time signatures and half the guys in there get completly lost - Leo

When I see people pushing and shoving eachother in a pit, it doesn't look like they're moving rythmically at all. I've seen people jumping up and down, but that's not moshing.

I think you guys are getting muddled between two different things; what the first user is describing, "everyone fighting to get closer to the stage", is exactly that and isn't moshing, its a manic squeeze to be the closest person to the band, usually at larger shows. The other user, Leo, is describing what i'd see moshing as, people not pushing for the stage, but forming a circle where they'd dance wildly to the music -- I find at larger shows the circle-style mosh pits are seen less frequently, as there are more people to push and shove which break up the pits, when things quickly turn into a manic struggle -- perhaps we should add something about this into the main article "Moshing and pushing"? -- Mallmus

Mosh participants consider it a dance, therefore it's a dance. Industrual dancing would have been inconceivable in the 1950s, when dancing meant a couple arm in arm or a traditional European/Mediterranean group dance. Likewise, moshing is inconceivable to those who haven't experienced it: "You do WHAT?" As for fighting, there's a difference between mutual shoving for fun and trying to hurt somebody seriously. It's the same difference as a wrestling match vs attacking somebody in an alley. If you say, "Fighting is always bad, therefore moshing is bad," that's a POV. It's imposing an external standard rather than taking moshing on its own terms. Sluggoster 02:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit late but I thought I'd point out that mosh pits normally develop far from the front of the crowd in large venues. And since the pit isn't moving forwards it can't be the case of them pushing to the front. Infact, when I started moshing 2 days ago at Trivium, I moved back from the 2nd row on the barriers, to about 10 metres back. Maurauth ^(...) 18:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge other articles with this one/Types and forms of moshing (skanking, thrash, etc)

Skanking was removed by an unregistered username (71.111.154.176) with the explanation: "Removed Skanking as a variation of moshing, it predates moshing by quite a bit." I reinstated skanking as a type of mosh. The dance affiliated with ska is different though there are similarities (two-stepping, for example). But skanking is also practiced in a hardcore form. Despite the argument that skanking emerged separately and earlier from moshing, the term skanking is now used by and in hardcore scenes to describe a certain type of mosh. Therefore, it should stay. Dpetley 19:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This is incorrect, skanking, and "MOSH"ing are both forms of slam dancing.

This is really important. There was a time (especially on the west coast) when "Skanking" was used to describe what went on in the pit. "MOSH"ing is another Jamaican term for dancing (as in "Mosh it up"). At some point "Mosh" replaced "Skank" as the term of choice. There is nothing about "Wetlands" in the history of the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mthai66 (talk • contribs) 14:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The articles on hardcore dancing, skanking, and pogoing might make more sense if they were merged with this one. They are all related and if they were merged together, a more inclusive conversation might take place on this article. Dpetley 01:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. While these dances often happen in the same venue, they are quite distinct. That would be like putting a conga line and the electric slide together because they're both group dances that happen at school dances, weddings, etc. User:Soilwork 9:03, 16 January 2008

I also disagree. Moshing and hardcore dancing are usually in separate parts of the venue and include different styles of interactions. TheSun (talk) 07:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The distinctions being made are legitimate. However, they all owe their origin to hardcore. This article is about how moshing began in hardcore and spread. The article on hardcore dancing certainly should be added. Dpetley (talk) 22:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

House music paragraph

Deleted the following paragraph:

Even though moshing is done to the aforementioned music genres, heavy metal and similar genres are not completely subject to danceability standards since people started dancing to house music and genres similar to that; since house music is what people commonly refer to as "dance music" compared to the genres moshing is dedicated to.

This doesn't make any sense. Is it trying to say, "Because people dance to even house music now, moshing is dancing."? Also, "dance music" to me does not mean house/techno music. It means the kind of pop between disco and hip-hop, with mainly black singers. But this is all irrelevant to a moshing article, especially in a section about criticisms of moshing and safety issues. Sluggoster 02:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that paragraph sounded a bit like nonsense. and Sluggoster i see what your saying but Dance music covers everything Electronic basically. from House to Jungle. i know its strange but what can ya do? :) 172.143.100.113 03:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Speed Moshing

I cleaned up the metal portion in Types of Moshing. It contained an instruction to "See Speed Moshing", but there is no such article and it was not inked. I instead made the entry more of a definition of Speed Moshing. I left the "crazier it gets" sentence because it captures the attitude of most Moshers (by the way, my name is actually Bryn Mosher - honestly. You can Google it.) This article also needs some references. - badmonkey 21:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

- I feel that a lot of the previous passages seem to rationalize and explain reasons behind the behavior. Citing that "western culture doesn't let young people express their violent urges, so they do it in the mosh pit". Sound's like a pretty poor defense.

in the uk Moshing is quite common at underground illegal partys, but the movement in time to the beat so every one is in sync therfore not as painful as say a punk mosh-if that makes sense. by the end of the party there is often a dip in front of the stack(of speakers)where 24 hours+ of moshing have eaten away at the ground

Sources and citations

Yeah, this article definitely needs more balance, I know that most of what I added was a bit on the negative side. The main problem is finding reliable sources, a problem which is horribly evident in the "origins" section, there's simply nothing backing it up that I can find. Anyway, if you read through the stuff I've referenced so far, I'm sure you can find some of the more positive aspects of the dance. I'm sure anyone who knows moshing knows that it's widely frowned upon, just as much as it is appreciated by others. As for rules/etiquette, once again, read through the references I've included and add more of them. I just haven't had time lately to trawl the web looking for nicer accounts of moshing. - Phorque 23:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Rewrote and reorganized the section on "Origins of the dance" and included references this time. Dpetley 03:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures and other media of moshing

The article has only one currently. Can we work to include a few more, larger pictures of moshing in action? Also, the video link included is very poor quality and does not always load properly. Can we work to fix this? Dpetley 00:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The image included there is one I found on flickr released under a creative commons license. It was the most illustrative one I could find at the time, but have a check back every so often in case more crop up. - Phorque 05:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Damn, you should have said earlier and I would have taken some pictures from the festival I went to on saturday. I'll try and get some pictures with my old digicam on the 26th, it's a bit hard though because I don't want to get it broken. ≈ Maurauth ^(nemesis) 08:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I replaced one image on the page and added another, after finding them on flickr (CC, of course). I feel that they better illustrate moshing, and look nicer to boot. 205.209.84.248 (talk) 00:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

All the pictures with crowd surfers should be removed. How in the world is that supposed to work when people slam into each other? Surfers are directed around the pits... 141.70.81.151 (talk) 11:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Concerns About Mosh Safety

Death by Mosh

I think the article should include something about the deaths of people from Mosh Pit related incidents. For example: Jessica Michaelek who was killing during Limp Bizkits set at the Sydney Big Day Out.

Shouldn't the May 1996 Dublin, Ireland incident be mentioned in this article? See: Smashing Pumpkins/Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness third paragraph. --Robert Harrison^{talk contrib} 19:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

i would just edit it but i was blocked... i ws just gonna say that another type of moshin is "happy moshin" which is just like normal moshin excpet its recorded on a mobile phone, so could sum1 add that 4 me

No. I don't think that incident needs to be explained in this article. While it was an unfortunate event, it does not define moshing. A link may be appropriate, but a full explanation is not. Dpetley 00:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Awful Truth/Smashing Pumpkins

The Awful Truth incident is given a rather long treatment in proportion to its historical importance. Maybe this could be mentioned in the wiki on Moore, or an entry on the particular event. But here....

Hardcore: Hardcore dancing is much faster and formulaic. It also includes people windmilling, moves resembling aggressive breakdancing, and solitary martial arts maneuvers. These are often frowned upon by other dancers, especially if attempted at a non-hardcore concert, partially as a result of cross genre rivalries. This is more often due to the fact that hardcore dancers can be reckless, and pose an unnecessary threat to those who wish to Speed Mosh. Another form of hardcore dancing which involves the whole mosh pit is the circle pit, in which people skank at running speed around the circumference of the pit. It can include two-steps, windmills, and swinging the arms and legs violently. In some venues large pillars in the middle of the pit form a nucleus to charge around, such as The Underworld in Camden, UK. Whilst other forms of moshing promote camaraderie and friendship between dancers, Hardcore Dancing is criticized for its lack of camaraderie and more alienating overtone.

Bands against moshing

there should be a section discussing or listing bands that are against moshing.

I have created a section but i only know of two bands that are against it so please add to it. 172.143.100.113 03:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The statement by Lamb of God in this section is being removed, the statement isn't against moshing, they actively encourage it at shows, it's about following an unwritten rule of moshing, if someone falls down pick them up, if someone is hurt help them get out. 76.19.104.189 (talk) 23:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Mosh nightclub

I'm considering adding an "External Link" section including a link (www.moshnightclub.com) to a nightclub called "Mosh" in Leicester, UK. Is this spam or not (hint: the reason I found this page in the first place was because I was wondering if there was any info on the club)? Guinness 23:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Moshpit (Band)

I removed this link, it seemed like a vanity page: there are no links in the article itself, and Google only turns up the Wikipedia page. I would put Moshpit(Band) up for speedy deletion myself but I'm not sure how to do that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aguasde13013 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

• Yeah, forgot to sign that. Sorry. ----aguasde13013 kickin' it just for you 15:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Movie

Fuck man...what is that movie? Drunken kids birthday XD...please..be more realistic with moshpits from Heaven Shall Burn etc at youtube...

Yeah I have to agree. That movie is not representative of what this article is about. Frankly, I think a Madball or Hatebreed video needs to be added. It doesn't get more moshalicious than that shit. This video is just a bunch of college kids listening to pop punk and bouncing off of one another. Dpetley 22:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I see no moshing in the You Tube clip,only fighting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.178.83 (talk) 12:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Types of moshing and why people mosh

some mention of different moshing acts such as the "wall of death" and "circle pits" should be made. Some one else please list some more specific types of moshing b/c i don't know of any others. (barring any types of hardcore dancing as there is a separate article for that) Along with this perhaps an explanation of why people want to mosh. I think a answer of the why? question would be a good addition to this article because there are many people who don't understand the appeal of moshing and who generally curious because of it. 76.253.125.123 (talk) 06:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Devin

A Regional section

I think that maybe a regional section would be appropriate as long as editors keep good taste and only add thigs that they have experianced in a scene they are familiar with. Practices varry widly and I, as I'm sure many others also, would like to know what goes on in other areas. This article portrays moshing as much more violent then I have every seen it, but who am I to say what happens elsewhere. I had an interesting conversation with a man form LA about moshing after a very fun pit that both of us were involved in. He was saying how he likes it better up here (Buffalo NY) than down in LA because he can just have fun in a pit rather then protecting himself a lot. He told me that in LA he rarely walks away without his own or someone elses blood on him.

Lamb of God reference

The reference to Lamb of God and walls of death is not necessary. It was not popularised by Lamb of God, and existed before then, as Randy Blythe states in this interview: http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=12457

In addition, I have found no references to Lamb of God actually being prohibited to incite the crowd to start a wall of death. The use of the word prohibited suggests under law they are no longer allowed to incite one, however, at the start of Black Label, Randy Blythe will always say "You know what to do." There are many references to this, from videos etc. This, to me, is incitement to a wall of death, and suggests that they are encouraging one. Therefore, this should be removed, as should the line 'Now, if the crowd starts chanting "Wall of Death!" during a show, Blythe will try to quiet them, shushing them at first, but if they persist, he will tell them to "Shut the fuck up!"' as I have found no references for it, and have never heard of this happening before.

I recommend removing the whole of this section, and replacing it with a simple definition of a wall of death, or creating a new page for the Wall of Death, as has been done with circle pits.

I have therefore removed this part (25/05/10) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darz rixx (talk • contribs) 16:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

S.O.D.

Moshing used to be a Hardcore style of dancing, that looked like jumping with big steps, and waving the arms around like a windmill (sometimes in a bridge called "the mosh-part), adopted by metalheads in Europe after the outcome of the S.O.D. album "Speak English or Die" , and the Anthrax video "Madhouse", also bringing NY Hardcore and Thrash-Metal into the mainstream EU Metal community, following up BNWOHM and Speedmetal (where the regular musical experience was Headbanging), and merging the Metal & Punkrockscene more and more together. (before Punks and Metalheads used to be pretty hostile against eachother) Indeed moshing has its roots in the Punk dance Pogo, that derived from the Jamaican Ska & Skinhead/Trojan scene. In New York those Punk, Metal and other styles of rough music scenes came peacefully together in the CBGB club where moshing is believed to be born. I miss the part where S.O.D. singer and Anthrax roady Billy Milano is mentioned as the bringer of Mosh into the EU. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonyp68 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

.

Bands that support

Are there any bands that support moshing or encourage it? That might be an interesting contrast to the Criticism.--Metallurgist (talk) 05:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thrash metal band Municipal Waste support, encourage, and glorify moshing on their concerts; you could probably find interviews from respected metal magazines written on this subject.

A UK band called One Minute Silence used to have a "pit crew" to enforce safety at their shows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.237.33.230 (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Dicky Barrett, lead singer for the Mighty Mighty BossTones, on 12/29/13, introduced one tune with something (very, very roughly) like this, "OK, rude boys and rude girls, lets see you skanking in a circle on this one!" Super friendly mosh pit with boys and girls. I even noticed that many of the boys over 6 feet tall-especially the ones over 200 lb.--self-segregated to one side of the pit where they could mosh together without freaking out the 5'2" girls and scrawny guys. And the House of blues (or is it the MMBs who pay for them?) have these great seven-foot-tall guys at the apron of the stage who grab the body surfers when they reach the stage and gently put them back on the floor. werner.lohe@gmail.com WLohe (talk) 20:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

What About The Freddy

What About The Freddy? Are we sure the Pogo didn't derive from the Freddy? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.21.3 (talk) 14:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No Wall of Death in Punk shows

Wall of Death is rare, practiced only at certain metal shows, never at punk shows, and is not considered moshing by many punk fans. I'm no expert but I witnessed a "wall of death" at a Sick of it All concert. Is this claim backed up by anything? S3khat0um (talk) 22:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Cornell university research paper on mosh pits

It would be worthwhile to include some of the results of this paper:

• Collective Motion of Moshers at Heavy Metal Concerts, Cornell University Department of Physics

Also, homepage for the research:

• [1]

Javascript implementation of the simulation for mosh pits:

• [2]

--causa sui (talk) 22:50, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Origins of the Term

Back in the early eighties 'moshing' was pretty much a synonym for headbanging, at least in the UK. Stub Mandrel (talk) 12:18, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

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All the pictures seem to show men only

Is that chance, or are women excluded? And/or, is this a Gay practice?

There's a couple women in [3] and [4] which are both on the page. Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, yes, it is at least extremely andro-romantic, and for most participants it is sexually arousing. That is the one and only "purpose" of mosh-pits and the extreme form of crude, anti-technical "dance" that occurs in them--to achieve sexual (or at least romantic) satisfaction from close, perspiratory contact with other white men fueled by rage and expectations of performative masculinity. It is taboo, it is countercultural, to get semi-nude and simulate violent intercourse with other young white men--therefore, it satisifes the participants' rageful lust for "acceptable" artistry--they figuratively/literally "bang it out" with a mob of conforming, identical screaming white men. 2601:14F:4402:6800:DCF2:9AD9:94C1:5E78 (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

this is unclear

"Scott Ian and Charlie Benante of Anthrax and Stormtroopers of Death have both been credited with the term originating from Vinnie Stigma of the New York hardcore band Agnostic Front. " who was the one who did it? PissAngle (talk) 14:06, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

What branch of service?

"US army marine Mike Marine"

He was in the US Army and he was also a US Marine whose last name happens to be "Marine"? So confusing. 75.177.20.180 (talk) 13:51, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Since I heard that origin story, my theory was always that "Mike Marine" was a nickname because his name was Mike and he was a marine. Nicknames like that were common in early punk, like Steve Ignorant, Rob Graves, or Alice Bag. The source just calls him Mike Marine, though, so there isn't a "real" name to give him. "Army" shouldn't be there though, the source just says marine, I'll change it. Issan Sumisu (talk) 15:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

"karate"

It's plain to see that hardcore dancing has changed in recent years (perhaps gradually over the last decade) and has a different character than it did before. Whereas there was always some element of violence ("push pits" and such), pits at hardcore shows these days generally involves a few people dancing incredibly violently, and sort of provocatively "edging" their bodies to get closer to hitting other people. I know there's a small section on this page about "hardcore dancing" but I feel like it doesn't really accurately reflect what goes on at these shows. We have a lot more spin kicks and creative moves that have come be known as "karate".

I personally despise this style of dancing because it takes all the fun out of the pit for people who aren't doing "karate". I like bumping around and getting some other people's sweat on me; I don't like worrying that someone is gonna smack me in the face or spin kick me in the gut. I suppose nobody asked me, though.

I would be curious if there is any journalism or literature about the emergence of this kind of "dance" culture, and I feel this article could be improved by providing further space for its discussion.

One could even perhaps explore the cultural implications of this "dance" culture. For example, "push pits" are more communal, reflecting punk's inclusive attitude and by extension it's politically liberal perspective. On the other hand I would posit that "karate" dancing is more fundamentally masculine and conservative, and represents a veiled re-emergence of "skinhead" violence culture which went somewhat dormant after the 80's.

Maxplean (talk) 06:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

There is, it's origins are traced in Rules of Rebellion: Slamdancing, Moshing, and the American Alternative Scene by William Tsitsos. In the paper, he interviews people involved in hardcore, and they generally agree it started in New York in the 1980s, and that by the time these interviews took place in 1999, it was at the most popular point it had ever been. It doesn't go into as much detail as you seem to be asking for, there isn't really a discussion of politics. There isn't many articles on hardcore dancing, because despite how it can seem at hardcore shows, it is very niche, also that the few that do refer to it, generally refer to it simply as "moshing" and you have to read between the lines to apply it. I don't have sources for this part, obviously this is WP:OR, so can't be in the article, but from my involvement in the hardcore scene for a long time, the specifically "karate" thing is generally thought to have originated from Chaka Malik from Burn and Orange 9mm in the late 80s, then that was mostly expanded upon by New Jersey bands like Bulldoze and Fury of Five in the 90s. Since then, there hasn't been much development of it past the general evolution you'd expect from new generations coming in and putting their own spins on everything. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)