Talk:Mozarabic chant

"Hispania"

I'm not crazy about the term "Hispania" (much as I tried to avoid the term "Francia" in the Gregorian chant article). As the article stresses, nomenclature is a tricky topic for this chant tradition. I think it impedes the reader more than it editifies. I don't feel strongly enough about it to dispute it, though. However, I am changing the lede back to "Spain," since it refers to people's primary associations, not with a strictly historically accurate association. The center of activity was always Toledo, and the few remaining chapels performing the (modern) Mozarabic chant are all in Spain, not Portugal. Peirigill 00:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

My friend, the Iberian peninsula or Hispania, covers not only the modern country of Spain, but Portugal also (and Andorra; and Gibraltar!). The word "Spain" in modern English (and its counterparts in other languages) means the country of Spain, not all of the Iberian peninsula (as the respective articles show). The fact is that Castillian expansionism over the centuries (ask not only the Portuguese, but also the Galicians, the Basques or the Catalans...) tried to monopolize the definition of Iberia in a way that satisfied its imperial interests. In fact, even if Spain was used in ancient times to refer to the whole of Iberia, today it is not. In this sense, given that the Kingdom of Spain only emerges with the union of Castille and Aragon in 1492 (and this is disputed since Navarre was only incoporated in 1512; only in 1874 was the name Spain changed into singular in the Bourbon monarchical titulary, before that they spoke of "the Spains"), one can almost say that there was never a Spain before that! It was Iberia that was conquered by the Romans, who called it Hispania. The country of Spain didn't exist then. It was Hispania that was conquered by Suevi, Vandals, Alans and Visigoths. The country of Spain didn't exist then. It was Visigothic Hispania that was conquered by the Moors, who called it Al Andalus. The country of Spain didn't exist then. The Moorish conquest was of Iberia or Hispania (that should not be confused with Spain, even if the term Hispanic is used to denote Spanish speaking peoples). This conquest and subsequent occupation led to a Christian reaction know as the Reconquista from which several Christian kingdoms emerged (such as Asturias, León, Castille, Portugal, Navarre, etc.). Over time Castille came to dominate most of Iberia (but not Portugal, except for a small period between 1580 and 1640) and the use of the castillian word "España" (which is the castillian version of latin Hispania) started as a political strategy to curb autonomy or independence from centralist Madrid (for the same reason Castillian language started to be known as Spanish, implying the irrelevance of other Iberian languages - this was still a problem in the Spain of the 20th century, with the active repression of languages other than Castillian). Furthermore, if you call Spain to the Iberian peninsula, this not only is simply not true, but is felt as profoundly offensive at least by the Portuguese. For all these reasons and more, this article should not emply that Spain is Iberia! What I'm saying is that there was no Mozarabic chant in Spain - Spain, in the modern usage of the word, didn't exist then. Of course I can accept, it is a fact!, that "The center of activity was always Toledo, and the few remaining chapels performing the (modern) Mozarabic chant are all in Spain, not Portugal." However, "people's primary associations" are not, in my opinion, good enough reason for maintainning Spain in the lead. How about saying the Iberian Peninsula and adding "mainly in what was to become modern Spain"? I'm doing that. Hope you don't desagree... The Ogre 15:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

First, I appreciate your passion for the topic and your concern with accuracy. However, might I ask that you break such long prose into paragraphs? That block of text is hard to read.

Second, I just note that many names have been proposed for the chant: Spanish, Old Spanish, Mozarabic, Hispanic, old Hispanic... but "old Iberian" isn't among them. The primary association really is with Spain. "Hispanic" of course refers to Hispania, but that's (to my knowledge) a little-known term and thus not a "primary association."

However, I really don't feel strongly enough about this to fight about it. I think your repeated use of the term "Hispania" and your resistance to calling Toledo "Spanish" are excessive and somewhat cumbersome to the reader, but then again, I'm just trying to tell people about the music, not argue political semantics. Peirigill 18:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Trisagion"

The Trisagion is not equivalent to the Sanctus. The Trisagion is "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us.", whereas the Sanctus is "Holy, holy, holy, Lord of Sabaoth, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna to God in the highest.". Both appear within the Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom. So it is erroneous to say that the "Trisagion" is the equivalent of the Sanctus. Deusveritasest (talk) 06:57, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Does the Mozarabic rite actually include "Holy God..."? Deusveritasest (talk) 04:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)