Talk:Mr. Freeze

Arnold criticism

"Schwarzenegger has been criticized for his "abominable interpretation of Victor Fries."[3]"

Is this really relevant for the article? For pretty much any movie adaptation of anyone, actors have both been criticized and applauded for the role. The source which is linked is something I'm not able to verify the authenticity of, and even if authentic, why it is relevant to this article. Seeing as how they did include the proper story, people are largly disliking the portrayal due to the catch phrases and emotionalism of Mr. Freeze when he has been portrayed as a cold character in TAS. However, this is more of a psychotic interpretation, where one can be coldblooded, and in essence forcing themself to say lines in a way to feel something, even when they are largely cold due to tragedy. Considering he has not committed as many crimes in the movie as in the comics, he is more redeemable and thus unstable explaining such things. Tyciol (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Main picture is five years out of date.

The main picture of Mr. Freeze is of a costume he has not used in the mainstream comics (except in error in the Justice League Wedding Special) since about 2003. He now uses a more Animated-style costume (see Salvation Run or any other appearance in the last 5 years). Since it's entirely possible that this picture may have been used as an artist's reference and led to that mistake in the Wedding Special, I recommend changing it immediately. I'd do it myself but the page is inexplicably locked. Rpmdkc (talk) 18:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The image doesn't need to be, and explicitly should not be, the most recent, as that is considered recentism, and is discouraged by WP:COMICS. Images should be of a 'classic' look, like the current image. ThuranX (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The costume on the main page was obviously inspired by Schwarzenegger's representation, and just from reading this discussion page, no one feels it's his "classic" costume. Using an old picture causes needless confusion. If nothing else, the new costume should be included further down the page so no one thinks the main picture is his current costume. [1] I would use this.

I could accept that picture, yeah. ThuranX (talk) 19:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel that it should be a definitive look. The one fans think of when they have him in mind is usually the Mignola/Timm one.--69.107.64.91 (talk) 13:44, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Fictional characters with powered armor

I'd like to include him in this category but first things first: is it suggested that he wears a special type of power suit? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Hrmmm. Had to say. Sometimes it's described, and depicted as a power suit, other times as just an environmental life preserver suit, that it, one that just keeps him alive. In recent years, it's gone more and more to powered armor, though. ThuranX (talk) 19:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Think I'll just go ahead and add it. That ok? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've gone ahead and included it. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

fine by me. ThuranX (talk) 01:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I was pretty sure the suit was just to perserve his frozen body? none of his freeze guns are inside his suit or anything. --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Muhaha!!) 14:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of his suits enhance his strength, provide armor, and/or weapons, and all are powered to maintain the cold he needs. ThuranX (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Killed in '91?

In Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1 (Oct 91), the Joker discovers Mr Freeze has taken over his gang while he's been in Arkham. So he uses his killer joy-buzzer on Freeze, destroys his enviro-suit, and leaves him on the floor. Obviously, once the cartoon increased Freeze's popularity, he was brought back, but was this explained, or just ignored? Daibhid C (talk) 15:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you're making too much of an assumption. Unless you saw him shoot freeze in the head and eat Freeze's brains, I'd assume nothing. Freeze's suit has been ruptured numerous times to remove him as a threat. ThuranX (talk) 20:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair point. Daibhid C (talk) 14:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Error regarding his name on the 60's tv series.

He was called Dr. Schivel on the 60's tv series, not Dr. Schimmel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.203.248.98 (talk) 18:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

C-Class rated for Comics Project

As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/Assessment#Requesting_an_assessment and list the article. Hiding T 16:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

ARTWORK FOR BB

Can we get full artwork of him from Batman Beyond????4DJONG (talk) 23:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

DCU vs MK?

I'm suprised no one has even mentioned how Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat) almost took his place in Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe or even aluded to it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.108.159 (talk) 04:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably because it didn't happen. As I recall, Sub-Zero became his world's Batman-like hero. DonQuixote (talk) 12:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

File:Arkham city mr freeze screen 2.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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addition

I think it is not necessary, but somebody might add that he is (most likely) native german. this can be seen in for example batman 1966, season 1 episode 7 "Instant freeze", where he sometimes speaks german. source: find the season on youtube, /watch?v=cI-Xb6pR6vc&feature=youtu.bec (full link would be blocked, insert this part) at min 21:50, he sais "wunderbar" ("wonderful") — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.227.20.99 (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"Originally called Mr. Zero"

At what point does an obscure one-off comic character providing very loose inspiration for an otherwise original character with a different name in a TV adaptation who is later incorporated wholesale into the original comic become a character created for the TV show? I have a reliable source (an old The Big Picture episode on The Escapist but I don't want to wacptch a bunch of videos to verify which one on my phone because my data usage is already running up -- I'll check later) that directly contradicts this article's claim, and this article's claim is attributed to one deadlink. What to do about this discrepancy? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:14, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Freeze wasn't created for a television show. He was originally called "Mr. Zero", but his name was changed to "Mr. Freeze" in the show. As a result, he became "Mr. Freeze" in the comics. Several decades later, the character became popular thanks to another television show, so entire origin was rewritten in the comics. In order to be a character created for television show, the character has to be non-existent beforehand (example: Harley Quinn). A solution could be to dig up more citations. DarkKnight2149 14:37, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Freeze wasn't created for a television show. He was originally called "Mr. Zero", but his name was changed to "Mr. Freeze" in the show. Umm... citation needed? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:32, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I understand the importance of citations. Rest assured, I'll dig some up (hopefully by tomorrow, depending on my schedule; it'll be soon). DarkKnight2149 00:43, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Here are a few citations to start us off. First of all, I'd like to point out that the official DC Comics website says here that Mr. Freeze first appeared in Batman #121 (1959), which is actually the first appearance of Mr. Zero, not Mr. Freeze. But, per WP:SYN, we need actual citations that 100% confirm my assertion. Therefore: [2], [3], [4]. Is there anything else? DarkKnight2149 01:08, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you explain how sources that contradict each other on the point in question can be taken together as reliable sources? Did the character originate in 1958 or 1959? Or, as I assert, in the late 1960s? Synthesizing two sources that say different things as though they said the same thing is the definition of SYN. And point is so peripheral to the two Gotham sources that we have no reason to assume they didn't get their information from this article. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:11, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I just checked all four of the sources I listed and they all say 1959 except Bleeding Cool, an obvious typo on their part. You can continue believe Mr. Freeze originated in the late '60s if you want, but you're arguing with official DC Comics website. That's like arguing with Doctor Seuss about the title of his own book. And yes, the three sources are news sources that are considered reliable and are used all the time. The only source that is arguable is Bleeding Cool, but only because they occasionally post incorrect "scoops". But as far as regular reports go, Bleeding Cool is generally usable as a citation. The other two are undeniably reliable. DarkKnight2149 03:41, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

We can cherry-pick sources that support one view or the other until the cows come home, but (1) secondary sources are more reliable than primary sources like those published by DC themselves (who have a vested interest in claiming their characters were first created by their employees for their comic books, not by TV writers for a show owned by Fox), and (2) sources, particularly tertiary sources, that are not about this topic and completely neglect the relevant details (the recent Gotham sources) or get them wrong (Bleeding Cool) are useless. A better strategy would be to take a random sampling of published print sources written by independent third-parties (preferably professional scholars, although I know with American comics this can be impractical) and see what the balance of these sources say. Checking the first page of GBooks results brought up this Wikipedia article, with one source supporting what I say[5] and two sources supporting what you say[6][7] came up. The other seven all either contained errors (1958) or didn't mention the TV show (or explicitly claimed that he was renamed in the comic book, while apparently consciously avoiding mention of the TV show), which disqualifies them as providing decent enough coverage for our purposes. (You and I both agree that whatever the case, the TV show does deserve mention in any thorough discussion of the origin of the character, for at the very least popularizing him and giving him his name; any source that doesn't mention the TV show can be dismissed for our present purpose.) Some of them (even more on the second page of results) were written in-universe and therefore are completely useless. This lack of sources is disconcerting, but it would seem that the reliable third-party sources are divided on the issue of whether the character originated in the comics and then disappeared for a decade until he was reintroduced, renamed and popularized by the TV show, or he was created for the TV show and loosely based on an obscure characters who had made one-off appearances in earlier comics. By the way, I found the BP episode I mentioned above (it's at 4:06~4:16); similarly, Chipman's blog (not a reliable source, but when "sources are divided" on something we're supposed to quote the opinions of reputable commentators) also called Lorenzo Semple the creator of the character. (Semple is not currently even named in this article.) And while the blog doesn't have an editorial team, the video did, and given that Chipman had a messy breakup with The Escapist a year ago and they still own all the rights to the video, if anyone anywhere had challenged the factual accuracy of the claim they would have no reason not to just add a "the views expressed in this video are exclusively those of Bob Chipman, a freelance writer who was contradicted to produce material for us in 2012" to the start or end of the video. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:46, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

For one, the only source that's about Gotham is IB Times. ComicBookResources is about the history of Mr. Freeze and is perhaps the most reliable of any of the sources we have named. Also, IB Times is reliable, regardless of what "topic" it's about. If you question the validity of either of these sources, I'd suggest asking around. There are also a number of instances where primary sources can be used, and considering that there are currently conflicting third party sources, I'd say this is one of them. DarkKnight2149 05:01, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread the CBR piece. But on closer reading, it doesn't contradict what I am saying. It says that the TV show pulled a loose concept of a character originally appearing in one obscure one-off comic story and changed a whole bunch about him, and that this is the only reason the character still exists today. (The grammar they use is awkward, though; it's clearly not true that he "never fully faded away" -- he seems to have been pretty fully faded away in the seven+ years between "Mr. Zero"'s appearance in the comic and the TV show, and the comics were constantly in publication during those years.) And no, your interpretation of WP:RS is clearly wrong about the IB Times: no source is "reliable, regardless of what topic it's about"; context is everything, and taking a vague or obscure line in an otherwise reliable source and extrapolating from it something you got in a bunch of different sources (some of which are clearly wrong) is clearly not a good idea. If reliable third-party sources disagree, then we should "teach the controversy", not just cover it up by giving the official DC party line; DC clearly have a dog in the fight, as if there is a controversy they are always going to fall down on the side of "we created this character". We should not, of course, cite my opinion on this point in the article. We should say something like "Opinions in third-party sources are divided on whether the character originated in the comic books under the name "Mr. Zero" but was renamed/popularized by the TV show,(source) or was created for the TV show having been loosely inspired by a one-off character from the comics named "Mr. Zero".(source) The official DC website dates the character's first appearance to 1959, the year Mr. Zero first appeared in the comics.(source)" Ideally we could find some reliable source discussing the fact that after the character was popularized by the TV show he was exported back to the comics and the first appearance of Mr. Zero was retconned as the first appearance of the character in-universe. (But the definition of "in-universe" seems to be very messy with early DC retcons post-Crisis and post-New52.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:32, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

If the sources are reliable AND conflicting, why not discuss this discrepancy in the article? Mention Mr Zero w/ a little detail, then say that the character may have inspired the TV character (provide sources), then specify that the comics later (maybe retroactively) clarified Mr Zero and Mr Freeze are the same person (with sources). Include names of creators in all instances so no one feels like credit is being stolen. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:51, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Vote with sources: Freeze vs. Zero

I think I know an exercise that might help here. Hijiri's position seems to be that the sources are split, and the question is whether or not it's a significant split or whether the dissenting sources are flukes or outliers. Since this is an either-or matter, why not just list the sources that support each position? That can make it easy to see the breakdown. I'd also recommend that one of you post a request for more voices at WP:COMICS. There might be someone there who's heard of this issue before.

The way this works is that anyone can edit any part of either list. Try to put the most reliable sources at the top, even if that means posting in between someone else's contributions. Sometimes blogs and other not-for-the-article sources are relevant. Every conversation is different so feel free to work as you go, change the headers, create more categories if needed, etc. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:20, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I would dispute the characterization of the CBR piece, as it seems to be based on the ”in-universe” reasoning that he changed his name. The source's real-world coverage could be read either way, and its describing the ”Mr. Zero” first is chronological, so that can't be reasonably interpreted thus either.

Anyway, whether DK2149 and I (and you and everyone else for that matter) agree with this source or that source and disagree with each other appears to now be irrelevant, because we all seem to agree that the sources disagree, so we just need to summarize the two views coherently. The one thing we need now is more sources that clearly fall on one side or another side.

How about this:

The origins of the character lie with an obscure, initially one-off villain, who was bald and had an ice gun and debuted in 1959. The character did not appear again until a revised version named ”Mr. Freeze” in the 1960s Batman TV series, and this version of the character was later incorporated into the comics. Commentators are divided in who they credit with the ”creation” of the character, whether the TV version was ”loosely inspired” by the 1959 comic, or the character was created for the comics and ”renamed/popularized” by the TV series. In-universe, the two are considered to be the same character, and DC Comics' official website states the character first appeared in 1959.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:13, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to offer an alternate suggestion, with refs and links to be added as appropriate:

A bald villain using an ice gun appeared in Batman #121 in February 1959, but he was named "Mr. Zero" and did not return in later issues. This character may have inspired "Mr. Freeze," a villain who debuted in the Batman TV series episode "Instant Freeze", which aired February 2, 1966. Mr. Freeze was incorporated into the comics, and the stories later confirmed Mr Zero and Mr Freeze are the same person (when? what issue did this happen?). Commentators are divided whether to credit the TV version or the 1959 comic with the creation of the character. DC Comics' official website states the character first appeared in 1959.

Argento Surfer (talk) 13:42, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Argento Surfer: Your proposal conforms perfectly to my POV, but we'll see if anyone else agrees with you. My proposal is a compromise to get around the (not good) wording we currently employ. I don't have any sources for the retcon that they were the same character; I have sources that say most of what your first two sentences say, and other sources that simply say the character debuted in 1959. From what I can tell Batman comics from this era (1959) have dubious continuity because the multiverse concept hadn't fully sunk in, so whether a particular story is set on Earth 1 or Earth 2 depends on what colour Batman's costume was drawn, or something silly like that. So "the same person" is an inherently problematic concept and would be extremely difficult to explain to our readers. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm partial to the first suggestion, though making a final decision will probably be tricky in this situation. DarkKnight2149 15:02, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we can cite Famous Robots and Cyborgs as it contains two demonstrable errors (1958 instead of 1959, and it explicitly claims he was renamed in the comic book before the TV show, in 1968 after the TV show had already ended). It does support one interpretation over the other, but only because it gets the relevant facts completely out of order. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:19, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Sources that say they're the same character with >1 name

1. DC Comics (indirect: gives Zero's issue) (possible COI) [8]
2. Comic Book Resources (says he began his career under a diff. name) [9]

Sources that say Freeze is adapted from/inspired by Zero, etc.

1. MovieBob says Freeze was created for the show [10]

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Uncredited creators

Who are these people: [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]?
P.S. Wow: [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22]. About pronunciation: [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28] (ʏ ᴅɪᴅ ᴜ ᴅᴏ ᴅᴀᴛ? oh, it's just went down the article to /* modern age */.), [29], [30], [31], [32]. --Mʀ Jᴇғғᴇʀsᴏɴ (⚡) 18:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Probably background artists or ghost artists. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Logan Sowadski

For posterity, Logan Sowadski was first added as an uncredited creator around July 2015 because of a Youtube video. The information has occasionally been replaced, and several outlets have reported his name as well. However, by restricting search results to July 2015 and earlier, there are no results for "Logan Sowadski Comics" or "Logan Sowadski Freeze". The name should not be re-added without a source that either pre-dates the youtube video or thoroughly discusses the creator's role. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:42, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey, Argento Surfer, this one guy doesn't seem to get it. I'm not sure what to do about it since I've already reverted a couple of times now and I don't want to get blocked.★Trekker (talk) 14:09, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

A google search for "Logan Sowadski" brings back more social media sites than references to Mr Freeze, which is always telling. I don't think this is a reliable addition. Chaheel Riens (talk) 14:17, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

I know. It's this one other guy who doesn't get it.★Trekker (talk) 14:27, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Another point is that even if this is a genuine creator - it has been disputed, reverted and discussion is being attempted. Cowrampage needs to join in here and argue his case, rather than reverting and leaving snide edit summaries. But to be as neutral as possible, I have to say that this edit summary was probably a little excessive at the time - but would be applicable now several edits down the line. Chaheel Riens (talk) 14:33, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

I should have tried to keep my temper in check more but since the editor has been blocked for using multiple accounts I can't say I'm super sorry about it.★Trekker (talk) 15:22, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

I have requested page protection. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:24, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

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Additions to a section

In the section Powers and abilities, Green Lantern (vol. 2) #68 and Batman #525 weren't mentioned in the part that mentions Underworld Unleashed #1. These two should be added as References. If someone could please add them in the same way that Underworld Unleashed #1 has been done, that would be good. Thank you.Malcolmlucascollins (talk) 21:41, 9 February 2019 (UTC)