Talk:Muh Dikhai

Deletion/redirection

Onel5969 recently turned this article into a redirect citing WP:NALBUM. Priyanka2330 evidently objected to this, and attempted to restore the article content, but apparently was confused about how to accomplish this. I have restored the article content on their behalf. I'm merely trying to help them overcome a technical barrier, and I don't personally take a stance one way or the other on the notability of this album. However, if you cannot reach consensus on this, I would suggest Onel should start an AfD discussion to bring in more input from knowledgeable editors, rather than reinstating the redirect. Pinging @Onel5969 and Priyanka2330: I see you have a discussion going at User_talk:Onel5969#Removed_page_to_redirect_after_review?, though it might make more sense to continue it here for the sake of posterity. Colin M (talk) 16:40, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@Colin M: thank you so much for your help and input in this and for all your contributions to Wikipedia. I appreciate your time. :)

1. First, thank you so much for restoring the article for now. A lot of effort went into writing it and I was taken aback that it was removed and redirected without a PROD or AfD discussion process. That's all I'm seeking — a discussion process and feedback on how to improve Notability, since that is Onel5969's concern.
2. I do wish to clarify that I did Undo the redirect (which Onel5969 then reinstated) and then attempted to restore the article, but I received a message that intermediate edits were made, and I was prompted to restore the content manually. I didn't want to proceed with the manual restore until I heard back from Onel5969. As you can see, I left a detailed message on their Talk page.
3. Yes, let's please continue this discussion here on the article Talk page and not on Onel5969's Talk page.
4. Lastly, regarding inviting more input from knowledgeable editors, I'll wait for @Onel5969: to create the article's deletion discussion page if they wish to, or raise this for discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums if that is more appropriate. Here's hoping for a constructive discussion. :) Priyanka2330 (talk) 19:46, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Since @Onel5969: raised Notability concerns for this album, I wanted to list the sources that were used to support the article. These are articles from press coverage regarding the release of the album, reviews by music magazines, and artiste interviews from 2015 (year of release). I've included references from publications across four countries, which speaks to Notability. I'm also linking the respective Wikipedia pages for each source/publication, just in case other editors want assess reliability and other details (circulation etc.).

1. Rolling Stone, India. Wikipedia: Rolling Stone. Published by Man's World (magazine) in India.
2. The Tribune, India. Wikipedia: The Tribune (Chandigarh)
3. CNN-News18, India. Wikipedia: CNN-News18
4. Hindustan Times, India. Wikipedia: Hindustan Times
5. Asian Lite International, London & Dubai.
6. The Indian Express, India. Wikipedia: The Indian Express
7. Filmfare Magazine, India. Wikipedia: Filmfare
8. The Pioneer, India. Wikipedia: The Pioneer (India)
9. The Times of India, India. Wikipedia: The Times of India
10. Gulf News, Dubai. Wikipedia: Gulf News
11. The News International, Pakistan. Wikipedia: The News International
12. The Express Tribune, Pakistan. Wikipedia: The Express Tribune

That's 12 trustworthy media sources from India, Pakistan, UAE, and the UK, which I'd argue demonstrates above-average Notability for an album from South Asia. In comparison, stub articles for albums such as Jal Pari (album), Doorie, Meri Kahani, Koi Aanay Wala Hai, Dhaani have 0-4 sources each, but are deemed worthy of their own page...? The article already has 17 references as of today which I thought was rather sufficient, but I'd be happy to add additional sources to satisfy General Notability Guidelines if needed. I'd also add here that the album isn't Notable only because the artiste is well-known, but also because it's a good artifact of Sufi music and poetry from the subcontinent in and of itself. Thank you for your time. Priyanka2330 (talk) 20:42, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@Priyanka2330: Please see WP:NALBUM. Which of the 7 points within that SNG are you saying the article meets? --John B123 (talk) 12:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi John B123 and thank you for your extensive contributions to Wikipedia. :) I did refer to WP:NALBUM before creating this article and thought it met 2 of the 7 Notability criteria:

1. Criterion #1. The album has been the subject of multiple published works, appearing in media sources that are reliable and independent of the artiste. Please note coverage in Rolling Stone magazine (India), CNN India, The Times of India as well as at least 20 more newspapers, online versions of print media, and music magazines in 2015 (year of release). Please review the article's Reference list which contains 24 reliable, high-quality references from nationally circulated publications in India, Pakistan, the UK and the UAE. Some of those sources are also listed right here on this Talk page, above.
2. Criterion #6. The album was in rotation on Radio Mirchi and on 92.7 Big FM — both are nationally broadcast FM radio stations in India. Multiple songs from the album were also on rotation on MTV (Indian TV channel) and Channel V India — both are nationally broadcast music television networks. Knowledgeable editors from WP:Pakistan should be able to confirm that songs from the album were broadcast across radio and TV channels in Pakistan, too.

Other items (not part of SNG) to consider with regards to this album's Notability:

• The Wikipedia page for the album is already being indexed by Google at the first search result, not counting Spotify.
• A simple Google search for "Muh Dikhai album" yields around 70,700 results search results, and 2,210 search results specifically in Google News. I think this speaks to Notability as well.
• Finally, this article is currently at 720 words (excluding track listing), making it longer than just a stub. It's already assessed as Start-class and certainly has the potential to grow further. I think merging it with the artist's main article would make that main article unnecessarily long. It might be a good idea to invite additional input on this album/article from other knowledgeable editors in WP:WikiProject Indian music and WP:Pakistan for further discussion.

Please let me know if I can provide any more info — I'm happy to do so. Thank you for your time and the opportunity for discussion. :) Priyanka2330 (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I've looked at some of the references in the article. They have mentions of Muh Dikhai, or contain what the artist says about the album. None of which satisfies non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble who created it. The list you give above is just a list of publications, not a list of relevant articles.

Per WP:VERIFY, any claim of airplay needs a link to a source stating that.

Google and article length play no part of the WP:GNG requirements.

--John B123 (talk) 08:06, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi John B123. Thank you for your constructive feedback. You wanted a list of relevant articles, so here you go. These are direct links to published articles from reputable sources that covered the release of this album. Each article is from a nationally circulated newspaper or magazine in India or Pakistan (or beyond), and each article offers information on the album release, types of songs and genres, and some offer album reviews/commentary:

• Rolling Stone Magazine (India): The album is the subject of the entire article. https://rollingstoneindia.com/with-love-from-lahore/
• Express Tribune (Pakistan): The album is the subject of the entire article. https://tribune.com.pk/story/854166/beyond-the-bounds-of-bollywood
• SBS Radio (Australia): Short article but covers the entire album and highlights some songs from it. https://www.sbs.com.au/language/english/audio/shafqat-amanat-ali-s-new-album-muh-dikhai
• Gulf News (UAE): The album is the subject of the entire article. https://gulfnews.com/entertainment/bollywood/shafqat-amanat-ali-khan-is-still-in-demand-1.1472791
• HipInPakistan (entertainment news portal, Pakistan): One notable song from the album is the subject of the entire article. https://www.hipinpakistan.com/news/1147606

If these sources do not satisfy "non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable," please help me understand why because if I'm interpreting the criterion incorrectly, I'd like to fix that. The sources are certainly independent of the artiste and not self-published but I think you already agree with this part. Is the issue at hand that these sources include interviews with the artiste to contextualize the album? If that's the case, I'll look for different sources that exclude artiste commentary. That should be a fairly easy fix. Thanks for all your help and feedback. Priyanka2330 (talk) 19:40, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

That's exactly the problem. The sources need to show what others think about the album, not just what the artist says. --John B123 (talk) 10:09, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

John B123 thanks so much for clearing that up! :) For now, I'd say the articles in Rolling Stone, SBS Radio Australia, and HipInPakistan should make the cut in terms of having no input or opinion from the artiste. But I will look for more such sources that exclude artiste commentary, and I'll update the Ref list this weekend. This is an easy fix. I GREATLY appreciate your constructive feedback.

As an aside, If I may add, in the realm of South Asian music, media coverage of new singles/albums (especially in reputable publications) is almost always accompanied by an interview with the artiste, especially if it's a high profile artiste. I understand that this may not satisfy part of WP:NALBUM, but a little leeway is probably called for here, considering that South Asian recordings can never really satisfy criteria 2 and 3, because recording certifications (gold, silver, platinum) and national music charts aren't a thing in the region. So a little flexibility with Criterion #1 is probably called for, or else we may risk underrepresenting noteworthy South Asian music on the English Wikipedia. Just my two cents, for what it's worth. Thanks for reading. :) Priyanka2330 (talk) 16:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I haven't edited this album page before, but reading this discussion has prompted me to add a comment. I think User:Priyanka2330 has provided enough evidence of notability. It would be a pity to recommend the article for deletion. I hope no-one does. Best regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 09:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Addressing Notability

Hello everyone! :) Starting a new section here to address the discussion above. EIGHT new and reliable sources have been added to the Reference list to further improve the album's Notability. To address Notability concerns above, these new sources include independent reviews of the whole album and/or reviews of one or more of its songs. These sources also exclude commentary from the artist himself since that was a specific concern that was raised.

It was not easy to decouple media coverage of the album from interviews with the artist because that's just how music is reviewed by major publications in the region. But I've done the best I could with these 8 new sources. Hopefully this satisfies Notability concerns and makes the page a good addition to the English Wikipedia. In my opinion, the page has the potential to grow further, and as George Custer's Sabre has stated above, I would also request for the page to remain active and not be deleted or redirected to the artist's main page. I will also be posting in WP:Pakistan to request a peer review of the page to see how it can be improved further. Thank you to all of you for your time and valuable feedback. Priyanka2330 (talk) 11:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I remain surprised that the notability of this album is doubted. Ok, as editors we all have the right to form opinions, and I won't say anyone is "wrong," but I wonder how many more third-party citations would be needed before its notability is agreed. The page is already well referenced, and those reference establish notability. Best wishes to everyone, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 06:10, 20 January 2022 (UTC)