Talk:Murder of Emma Caldwell

Thanks for help so far

Thanks for help so far, first time I have written a wikipedia page. If you could, explain below. I don't know how to link this page with other mentions of Emma Caldwell, is this not possible unless the page has been approved from the draft stage? Thanks for improving the references page, I wasn't sure how to do that. ScotPolHist (talk) 13:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@ScotPolHist: Thank you for creating this article, I have moved it into mainspace now as I believe it is worthy of being here. I've added a few links to this page with other mentions of Emma Caldwell (you are right this would have to be done once it moved into mainspace); if there are any I've missed out please feel free to add links as you see fit! Thank you GnocchiFan (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I will do, it is a case which has stumped many in past decades. Police Scotland have worked well to tackle and crack cold cases such as this, Caroline Clachan, and the murder of Renee MacRae. Although Emma's life was very sad, I am hopeful she will soon get her justice. ScotPolHist (talk) 10:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Trial is still underway

@GnocchiFan and @ScotPolHist: Wikipedia is not a news website, so we should not be writing articles about murder where there is a court case that is still proceeding and the accused person has not yet been convicted. Every accused person has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted in a fair trial. Having this article published in mainspace puts those rights in jeopardy. There is a caution at WP:PERPETRATOR that "Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." That includes parts of an article that discuss the trial and its evidence. Please move this article back to draft, until such time as a conviction is handed down, as it is WP:TOOSOON to have this article in main space at the moment. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:49, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Although I do not believe this article will have any impact on the trial, it can be moved to draft until a verdict has been reached. This will likely be on Monday or Tuesday. ScotPolHist (talk) 12:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I will move this article back to the draftspace for the time being. GnocchiFan (talk) 13:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan and @ScotPolHist: Thank-you for agreeing to delay putting this article into main-space until after the jury has returned a verdict in the trial.

@ScotPolHist, I understand your frustration at the delay in putting this article out into the public arena, but beginning the title this article with the words Murder of .... opens a can of worms about how to name an article when nobody has been convicted of murder. Wikipedia's standard for proving murder is conviction, not the police charging with murder or the news media reporting murder, or even the jury hearing all the evidence of a murder and being told by prosecutors to convict for murder. Until the point the jury returns a "Guilty" verdict on the murder charge, it is not murder, only a death or an act of killing a person. Murder has two aspects. (a) The act of killing someone, and (b) the intent to kill someone. While the act can be determined from the physical evidence and forensics of the crime scene, the intent is something only a judge and jury can decide. In some ways my objection is one of verification - until the jury returns its verdict, Wikipedia cannot verify it was murder. To do otherwise indicates a non-neutral point of view or original research because editors are giving their opinion by siding with one party or another over what the evidence means in the case. For the sake of a few days, I thought it far better to draftify this article temporarily, than choose the alternative option - Deletion - for violating the basic principles of having a Wikipeda article - and waiting a few days for the verdict to be returned. Also, Wikipedia does not speculate on future events. Please be patient. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@ScotPolHist and @GnocchiFan: Now that the trial has been completed and the defendant convicted and sentenced for murder, I agree that publication is appropriate. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

28 February

Iain Packer is Guilty of murder. Let me know when it can be published. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScotPolHist (talk • contribs) 15:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@ScotPolHist: as the article seems to meet the criteria set by Cameron Dewe above, I believe this should be put into the mainspace. I've moved this now, but if editors disagree please let me know. GnocchiFan (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

any reason the section on the discovery of the body is saying information not found? both pieces of information are in the article. ScotPolHist (talk) 17:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

The failed verification tag was added by Cameron Dewe here. As he says, the cited article doesn't explicitly say that the garotte which was found was used to murder Emma, and doesn't say that Neil Borland indicated this either. Perhaps some of the later sources make this link more explicit? Pinging @Cameron Dewe: (sorry if you've already been notified) to make sure I'm not misrepresenting anything here. GnocchiFan (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Hmm I'll fix this tomorrow. ScotPolHist (talk) 18:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan and @ScotPolHist: From reading the article, but not all the sources, I don't think even the evidence presented to the Court could prove beyond reasonable doubt that the garotte was the murder weapon used by the defendant. However, while having a garotte around the neck was the state the body was found in, the evidence has to put the garotte into the hands of the murderer and around the victim's neck at the time the victim was murdered. Since this is denied in testimony and there are no other witnesses, the evidence is only circumstantial. While the victim is dead, it is a matter of opinion that the garotte was the murder weapon, and for that you need a witness to opine that it was the case; Wikipedia editors cannot jump to that conclusion because that is editorializing and/or original research. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

if we could find a way to add pictures into the article, either of Emma or her family would be good. ScotPolHist (talk) 17:20, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

As with e.g. Murder of Sarah Everard I think it should be possible to re-use a copyrighted image under a "fair use" rationale. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I initially thought so but the picture I uploaded was deleted. I might write to get written permission ScotPolHist (talk) 14:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

From a photographer/ agent/ publication? My experience suggests this process is fraught with difficulty. I'd strongly recommend taking advice from whoever uploaded and used the one at Sarah Everard (or one of the many other similar articles). But it's your call, obviously. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I'll have a look at it. ScotPolHist (talk) 14:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Fair use can't be used in drafts, perhaps that was the problem?. I wouldn't bother with permission, now it's in article space, just go for fair use, exactly as Murder of Sarah Everard Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll have a go later, so many of my edits have been done over or redone it is quite frustrating. ScotPolHist (talk) 14:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

While a photograph would be a "nice to have", having a map and an infobox, too, would also be helpful. Neither of the latter require permission. Other creative image solutions are a photo of the alleged crime scene or even the general locality near where the crime occurred. You do have options, such as visiting a place and taking a photo yourself. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I have tagged various Wikiprojects that an infobox or image/photo is needed. This doesn't need to be a photo of the victim, merely an image that represents the crime, as a picture is worth a thousand words, according to the saying. While a picture is not critical, I think an infobox with the vital details about the crime is. If an image is desired, a map of the area where the crime occurred should also be considered. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Have added an infobox. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:43, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I think you could get rid of the second infobox ScotPolHist (talk) 13:27, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

As with Murder of Sarah Everard, this is where an image of Caldwell could be placed. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

She also would have been born at Vale of Leven Hospital in Alexandria, not in Cardross where she grew up. There is nothing really in Cardross . ScotPolHist (talk) 13:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Perhaps we can find a source. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

now you have added her D.O.B it is quite good yes. I hadn't seen that article before. ScotPolHist (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

It's not the best of sources. There may be better ones. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Murder of Sarah Everard does not have a map of the murder location. But I see no reason why one could not be used. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

any reason you say dates like "she was born 31 January 1978" rather than "she was born on the 31st of January." I don't know if it reads as well like that. ScotPolHist (talk) 15:15, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it just Wikipedia preferred house style for dates. See MOS:YEAR. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

that is strange, but thanks. ScotPolHist (talk) 15:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

the article looks good now, it encompasses everything necessary. The only thing to add in future will be if there is an inquiry and the results of that. ScotPolHist (talk) 12:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, an appeal seems unlikely. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Seems I was wrong. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

he is so delusional I don't think he will ever admit he murdered Emma or that he is a serial sex offender. I don't think he is a serial killer, and I think he probably murdered Emma in some kind of sex gone wrong... but I will be very upset if he gets less time in the jail (although I think it will be reduced sadly) ScotPolHist (talk) 15:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, criminals who never admit their crimes seem to live in a kind of twilight world of perpetual denial. He seems to have taken a real delight in strangling women. No surprise that one eventually died. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

It is so bizarre that he takes such a brazen attitude, his appearance on disclosure. He will probably get a right doing in the jail. I don't know if you saw him in court with the cane and all that nonsense. He's 51 not 71. ScotPolHist (talk) 15:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Image

ScotPolHist, many thanks, great work. I've added a fair use image, and I ran a script to check the references, only the Mirror and Standard came up amber, but I think in this context that's not problematic. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, lot of work but great help from others too. First Wiki page I have done. ScotPolHist (talk) 14:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

if you go on mobile it seems to have an erroneous description under the image, but not on mobile. I wonder why that would be. ScotPolHist (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Should it be moved to the Emma Caldwell infobox, as with Murder of Sarah Everard? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

meant to say not on desktop - long week. Could be under the other info box. Might look nicer at top of the page. ScotPolHist (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if there is any firm advice about placement of the image in murder articles. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)