Talk:Murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier. There is agreement that the article should be called either "Death of" or "Murder of", but no agreement on which is preferable. A relisting brought no further contributions, so I am closing the debate in favour of the less judgemental of the two terms. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

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Sophie Toscan du Plantier → Murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier – This would be an appropriate addition to Category:Deaths by person as it is more about her death than about her life. --Relisted. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 21:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC) 86.45.164.111 (talk) 00:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier. "Death of" is a more common prefix for these articles. It certainly sounds like she was murdered, and sources have used that word, but in the absence of a conviction, "Death of" is as precise as we can responsibly get; cf. WP:BLPCRIME. --BDD (talk) 16:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Filmography

Is there a WP:RS that can be used as a reference for her films?Autarch (talk) 17:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

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Page moved to title of Ian Bailey extradition attempts - Proposal to undo move

I notice that Serial Number 54129 moved this article from the title Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier to its current title, Ian Bailey extradition attempts, with the comment that the change in title would "Better refect [sic.] the scope of the article: very little is about the death, the bulk of it regards subsequent attempts at extradition." While I understand and can appreciate the user's sentiment in making the page move in good faith, such a change in subject has consequences in both the quality and importance of the article as well as its category listing. First, the article move results in the category listing of the article needing to change from listing under the victim's name, Sophie Toscan du Plantier, to listing under the alleged living suspect, Ian Bailey. Second, the article move also changes the status of the article from a biography about a deceased person and the circumstances of their death to that of a living one about a crime suspect. Thirdly, this also means the article is now about a person who is only suspected to have committed a crime and the relevant Courts have found that the country seeking extradition has no jurisdiction to extradite the person concerned to question them with a view to consider prosecuting that person for the offence for which he is currently only suspected of having committed, namely the Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier.

As far as I can tell, suspect is only otherwise notable because he is suspected in causing the death of the victim and the victim's death is only notable because her country of citizenship sought to arrest and prosecute a person suspected of causing her death when they had no jurisdiction to do so. There is a causal link between the death and the extradition attempts, so both should appear in the same article. Wikipedia practice has been to call such articles Death of <victim>. Furthermore, we have a page move proposal to call the article Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier, but we do not have a similar proposal to call the article by its most recent title. Because of such causality issues, I went looking for the article that ought to exist about the death of the victim, only to find it is this one. It may be that the suspect is notable because of the extradition attempts but those attempts are only a consequence of the death of the victim.

Consequently, I think the scope of the article is about the death of the victim and the consequences that arise from that event. The extradition attempt is a logical consequence of the death and would not occur if the death did not occur first. The real problem with this article is that the death is barely described in the article, and then so briefly in the introduction that I almost overlooked it. Yet the death is central to everything else that is described in the article. I think this article would be improved by moving it back to the earlier name and writing more about the Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier, so that the extradition attempts of the suspect can be understood better. However, before I do, I will at least ask if anybody has any thought on the wisdom of doing so. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 13:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Sic yourself. The article can be at any title it likes as long as it reflects the contents; I'm not wedded to either. If you want it at the original title, fine; but you will have to add a lot more about her actual death to justifying shifting the focus. Bear in mind also that policy dictates you achieve a consensus for your addition, particularly as they will almost certainly have implications per WP:BLP. ——Serial 13:49, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree, the death is central, so the article name "Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier" should be reinstated. --A bit iffy (talk) 08:22, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Not all that many words can or need be spent on the event of the death itself. COD is clear and gruesome: hit over the head with a chunk of concrete, sufficient to crack open the skull; and a tussle in the briars. Perhaps the most complete account is that Bailey gives in one of his many confessions (or "attempts at black humour"): perp went up there in hopes of a romantic encounter, she ran, he hit her, subsequently "finished her off." That is all we know. That not many more words can be dedicated to the occurrence does not diminish its centrality. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:65C6:96EB:D265:E131 (talk) 13:17, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I tend to agree on using victim-first language here, and so believe the name "Death of Sophie Toscan du Plantier" should be used. Double - U (talk) 13:14, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

He is not an alleged suspect - he very much is and remains a suspect, in everyone's eyes. It would be correct to refer to him as the alleged perpetrator. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:65C6:96EB:D265:E131 (talk) 13:10, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Unsolved?

Having been convicted and sentenced, the situation is rather that of a fugitive than an unsolved murder.

From the point of view of French law, yes. It remains possible to maintain that the Irish system is more rigorous and the case remains unsolved within the parameters of this system. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:65C6:96EB:D265:E131 (talk) 13:07, 27 August 2021 (UTC)