Talk:My Opposition/Archive 1

Various entries section

Here is an example of the type of "context" I think would be helpful for the reader:

Censorship in Nazi Germany was implemented by the Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels. All media -- literature, music, newspapers, and radio broadcasts -- were censored, in an effort to reinforce Nazi power and to suppress opposing viewpoints and information. On 14 April 1943, upon reading that the (court, Volksgerichtshof (or People's court)?) had imposed the death sentence to listeners of a non-censored overseas radio broadcast (in the newspaper, with Newspaper name if available), Kellner wrote that:

Ten years in the penitentiary for a "radio crime." According to the newspaper that was too little for the chief justice. He sent back the verdict to the original court and demanded the death penalty. Just think: the death sentence for listening to a foreign broadcast on the radio. It cannot be imagined in the rest of the world that there would be given such a punishment for listening to a German broadcast on their radios. This horror regime has given itself a gruesome monument unto the distant time. Will there be retribution for this some day, Mr. Chief Justice?[23]

This sets up the atmosphere in which Kellner was living without putting words in his mouth and without interpreting, and (to me at least) the passages take on far more meaning with the contextual information than without.--DO11.10 19:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

May 17, 1945 entry, and other comments

You said you were curious about the very last entry in the diary. Here is that entry. It is short, but quite interesting:

• May 17, 1945: The newly named mayor Heinrich Schmidt asked me to the mayor’s office to see if I would become his deputy mayor. I was present when Thea Wachtel called. She wanted to find out if her father could be taken out of American detention, and if she could take his place, because he was innocent and it was she who worked for the NSDAP. At that point the painter Erbes came into the office, and Fraulein Wachtel said: "You, Mr. Erbes, carry alone the guilt that my father is imprisoned. You were no National Socialist, but you were also no German!" This is a typical remark for one with such a mental attitude, but her intended insult is not an insult at all. Only if it were an honor to be a German at this time would that remark hurt. But under the present conditions, it is not a pleasant thing at all to be ranked among the current generation of Germans.

As for the diary entries, I like the way you blocked them. I agree that your example about the radio broadcast is useful and educational, and yes, helpful in putting the diary entry into context, but I continue to believe the diary entries should be allowed to stand alone. If we put any one of them into context, we would need to put all of them into context in order to be consistent. Not only would that make the section cluttered, but what would we do with the Christmas entry and the one about my great-grandfather's birthday, which need no context?

As for the photo problem, sometimes a photo overlap with text needs to have a line space before and after the code for the photo. At the moment, the photo of my grandfather is side by side with the photo of the diary volumes, and has been shunted completely off the right side of the page. I looked at the code, but I wasn't sure how to tweak it to get the photo of my grandfather back onto the page, other than to make the diary photo smaller.

Sure is lots of work, isn't it? Scott Rskellner 20:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: I just realized the diary entries are already in context, and we don't have to do anything about that. The date of each entry is a link to that context. If needed, we can add information to those date articles. Rskellner 20:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with just listing the quotes is that it violates an official Wikipedia policy namely, that Wikipedia articles are not: "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional)." The place to enter lists of quotations is Wikiquote, and I note that they are already listed there. In short, Wikipedia articles should: use material from the original work, provided passages are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article, without straying into the realm of interpretation, and secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research. For a similar example see The Story of My Experiments with Truth. (If the quotations in this article were just listed they would have just been moved to Wikiquote long ago, but a short contextual statement is provided to help the reader understand what Gandhi is talking about, these short statements thusly make both the article and the quote encyclopedic.

"The date of each entry is a link to that context." No, a date is only a part of context which should describe essentially who/what/when/where and why. "If needed, we can add information to those date articles." This is a bad idea and it wouldn't work either, the context is specific for each entry of this article, and not for the date in general.

I guess that my point is that quotes are not encyclopedic without context, and in this case they should either be contextualized or deleted (with a link remaining to the Wikiquote article). I would vote for the former, but you should probably decide.--DO11.10 22:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You are far more knowledgeable about Wikipedia and its requirements than I, and I want very much to stay within all the guidelines. If we are to place these entries into a historical or biographical context, then should we merge the section into the main body of the article? We will have to provide transitions from one entry to the other, in order for the article to read well. It looks like we will have to drastically reduce the amount of entries, perhaps by 50% or more. I will work on it. ScottRskellner 22:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Major restructing to place the quotes in context

Perhaps this will work. I treated it like a narrative. I omitted a number of entries, and added some. Let me know what you think. ScottRskellner 00:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, in the Reception secton, I replaced the photo of the page of the diary with a photo of the diary on exhibit at the George Bush Presidential Library. It seems appropriate there. You be the judge. Rskellner 00:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow you are fast! Yes, that looks and reads much better. I will take an in depth look soon, and let you know about any specifics. The diary section is very long now, is there anyway to create subheadings to break it up? Thanks--DO11.10 01:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've just added the subheadings. They probably can stand improvement. I will continue to work on the context aspect, making them more comprehensive. Let me say that all of your suggestions have been wonderful, and this article is so much better because of them. I've now examined all the other articles in the Diaries category, and this seems to be one of the best. You are making the Kellner page as good as those you created yourself. How generous of you to spend so much time here. Thank you. Scott Rskellner 02:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

And I've also added a paragraph at the end of the Author section about the diary's challenge to Holocaust deniers and to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Rskellner 05:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is coming together quite nicely, fantastic work on your part! I really like the section headings, the library image and the added context. A few points:

• who has questioned the extent of the Holocaust and threatened to wipe Israel off the map, - this bit needs a really good second Ahmadinejad-specific, reference. There are some very good ones in the lead of the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article (refs #7?).
• In recent times, some pseudo-historians known as Holocaust deniers have questioned the extent and even the existence of the Holocaust - again this needs a good reference (the last 5 refs listed under ref#3 in Holocaust denial look particularly well suited).
• The STAR-TELEGRAM article quotes the diary as describing Hitler as a "peddler and fanatical rabble rouser" - I love this description, can we use it somewhere (unless it is there already and I missed it)?
• willing accomplices to madmen and murderers - seems a bit harsh, clearly they weren't all willing or all accomplices, is there a short quote you could use in place of "madmen and murderers" (maybe the "rabble rouser" bit?)
• What is the objective of the "http://www.spd-laubach.de/7.html" link? The page is in German, why not link directly to Laubach?
• A potentially sticky problem is that of copyright. I noticed the copyright statement you made on wikiquote, could you repeat it here (on the talkpage) as well? Also, when the book is published do you foresee any problems with the publisher over the large number of quotations here?
• Some wikilinks are missing, I will just go through and add these though.

Cheers--DO11.10 17:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've handled these matters. Here is what I've done: I added references for Ahmadinejad and Holocaust deniers. Thanks for pointing me to those articles where the references were available. I rephrased the "madmen and murders" sentence to better reflect what is in the entry. I retained the link to www.spd-laubach, but I turned it into a reference in place of the external link (There is a book published by the Laubach Social Democratic Party in which my grandfather is mentioned for his political activities). I put the copyright notice at the top of this page, as you suggested. There are almost 700 entries in the diary, so I don't believe a publisher would object to the handful that are here. As for the sentence in the Star-Telegram article that briefly mentions Hitler as a "peddler and fanatical rabble rouser", I couldn't find an appropriate place for it, which is probably best because there are more than enough entries in the article. But for your own interest, here is the paragraph from the entry in which it appears:

• All of the above were taken in and deceived by Adolf Hitler. But Adolf Hitler could not deceive me. Why? From the very beginning Hitler appeared to me to be a peddler and a fanatical rabble rouser whose main intent was to influence his listeners. Particularly those who were won over first had absolutely no world perspective, the so-called political children. Hitler is without doubt a reader of human nature to the first degree. He constructed his party on the gullibility of people. With great craft and cunning he welded together his party, all for the sake of total mastery over the people. When I saw whom Hitler surrounded himself with, that clique of ex-military men, I could see what was to come. I saw that everything that had been done by them to date served but one purpose: a coming war.

Had the Nazis discovered the diary, they would have immediately executed my grandfather.

By the way, the producers of the movie liked this paragraph, too, and it is narrated in the movie by the actor portraying my grandfather. Rskellner 19:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

GA assessment – on hold

Thank you for nominating this article as one that may meet the Good Article Criteria. As you will see I have put the article on hold at this time. My comments are as follows:

• This was a hard article to assess for the following two reasons:

1. It had to meet the requirements of not being Original Research – especially given that one of the major contributors is the grandson of the diary writer, and
2. The nature of its content provides a strong possibility that it could breach WP:NPOV.

In relation to these points; I am happy to continue to assess it because it does not for the most part, refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. It is clear that many others have published analysis or synthesis of the diaries pages and so it does appear to advance its own position, simply because it states the facts of Kellner’s diary (and thus his opinion at the time of its writing).

That said I note some of my suggestions are a reflection of removing any further possible doubt as to absolute authenticity of the article content and the tendency to remove doubt over Original Research. Please note this is not to say in any way that I have doubt but rather to reflect the (adapted) adage that Justice (in writing an article) must not only be done, it must be seen to be done.

I make these comments therefore so future editors can see the transparency of the process in full.

As the assessor I will require a number of minor adjustments as detailed below before I can GA pass the article. I normally also suggest that as each adjustment is made, that editors place the template {{done}} after each part that is completed as this will provide all editors with a guide of what is completed in this fashion. Done

1. Wikilink the first (rather than a later) occurrence of the following words (where possible): Holocaust; propaganda; fascism, anti-Semitism; Führer; America; England; Giessen  Done
2. Remove this sentence (The film interweaves the stories of Friedrich Kellner and his grandson, the creation of the diary and the decades-long attempt to make it public.) as it is detailed in the sister article and does not belong in the lead of this one. Done
3. I may be mistaken but the part of the sentence that says (but he believed his diary could serve as a warning for future generations to oppose dictatorships and their totalitarian ideology.) does not seem to relate accurately to the reference (and may therefore be an instance of uncited POV)? It should be removed. Done
4. Similarly this part of the article (When he gave the diary to his American grandson, he told him:"Use the diary as a weapon against dictatorships and fascism and terrorism. There will always be people of bad will; therefore people of good will must be prepared to oppose them."[9]) appears to reflect original research (given the author is RSKellner) and therefore should be removed so as to not fail WP:OR – I note that IMHO removal of both this and the part directly above will not deduct from the overall article itself.  Done
5. Moving the image (Friedrich Kellner Diary. Volumes of the diary.) up to the top of the paragraph – just under the sub-heading The Diary may give a better aesthetic flow to the words surrounding it. Done
6. Check and adjust spelling and or grammar of: (rearmed); (and allowing Germany be become a totalitarian state). Done (second part, but what is wrong with rearmed [1]?) Comment - my mistake rearmed is in all my dictionaries as re-armed but it appears able to spelled in the way you have also.
7. Reference (via inline citation) as much as is appropriate and possible the section titled (Reception of the Diary) – which at this stage is totally devoid of any such referencing. Done This mirrors, to some extent, the External Links section. Should the External Links section be removed, or is it okay to keep it? Comment there is no harm in keeping the external links - especially where such links are not spam.
8. I think the line that states (diary serves as a foil against such attempts to distort history) is dangerously close to POV and should be rewritten – and also with another choice of word than ‘foil’. Done
9. I think a section titled See also with the two sister articles (and some others) will probably tidy the article up a little more. Done
10. I suggest adding the following category to the article: My Opposition (the Friedrich Kellner diary)- Done it was already in this cat, did you mean to suggest a different one? Comment my mistake - late at night when I assessed and did not see that one.

1. Finally – in terms of opening up the article to better scrutiny for editors and readers alike – I note that inline citations (currently numbered) 14-20 and 23-26 are referenced directly to the diary. As the diary is not (it appears published or available) I strongly suggest that where possible these inline citations should be double cited to the individual web-pages that are found here which has direct links to the following list of Excerpts from Kellner’s Diary

• October 23, 1941
• October 28, 1941
• December 8, 1941
• December 15, 1941
• July 29, 1941
• December 10, 1942
• March 28, 1945
• March 29, 1945
• May 1, 1945
• May 6, 1945
• May 7, 1945 Done for the two entries that matched this list.

All of that said, for the most part, an excellent job and if you just fix all of the above suggestions within seven days and let me know I will pass it. If there is a good reason to not complete some of my suggestions let me know and if they are appropriate suggestions I will adjust my thought process rather than just fail the article. Please let me know on my talk page when you finish or if you have any questions. Cheers --VS ^talk 07:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)