Talk:Mykolaiv

Some corrections

Corrected economics, removing obsolete specializations. All those clothing, knitting and foot-wear are now made in China :((. Also deleted the following:

The city is surrounded by extremely fertile chernozem fields that facilitate good agriculture.

It definitely belongs to Mykolayivs'ka oblast', not here. Also, Novorossiya is an important concept of the Imperial Russian (and Ukrainian) history. Somebody please develop it.

Pryvit, AlexPU

City birthday

The article says that April 27, 1789 is considered the city birth day, yet the celebrations are held in September. Which date is correct? Or, is there a reason for this discrepancy?—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 15:12, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

It was a mistake. Birthday of City - 21 August... --Aleksandrit 19:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Would you by any chance have a reference to that? Thanks!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I see that you know Russian. So watch result of google --Aleksandrit 15:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I could google it up alright. What I wanted to see, however, was something that could be used as a reference to the statement that Mykolaiv's city day is August 21. You and me both know it is, but WP:V requires this fact to be verifiable (i.e., sourced). If this date is mentioned in the City Charter or some other official document, that'd make an ideal reference. Would you have anything like that? Thanks!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I apologize to all for Russian, but it will be more comfortable me now to write on it. So… Ezhiki, нашел я неплохой источник Юрия Крючкова, это известный на местном уровне краевед. Здесь ссылка на книгу в формате rar. Так что я думаю нужно подправить статью согласно этому источнику. ~ Aleksandrit 19:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone reading this live in Mykolaiv?

I am trying to figure out some confusing information I have read in other places. According to several articles a large radar site was built about 20 km NE of Mykolaiv in the early 1970s. Does anyone reading this live in the area and can confirm or deny this? The system may have been torn down since it was constructed, but if I am reading the history correctly it likely operated into the 1980s, at a minimum.

Maury 19:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Give, please, links to information which you saw ~ Aleksandrit 19:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I have found a link to the coordinates outside Mykolaiv that they say is the radar site. However the Google Maps photography of this area is low quality. Can someone who lives nearby tell me if this is the right place? 47°02′28.33″N 32°11′57.29″E

Maury 12:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is right place ~ Aleksandrit 19:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I read elsewhere that this is the place where the US builds a military base. Is this fact or fake news? If fact, when was the contract made or the actual building commence? Either way, it is important to include, me thinks. 2001:8003:AD87:D400:448C:FC26:1B28:363B (talk) 04:23, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Translation? pronounciation?

I see that translations (the meaning of the city's name) are listed for the Russian and Ulranian names of the city. Might these by pronunciations - the way the city's names would be sound in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badger151 (talk • contribs) 16:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Regional Shipyards

I've been "slowly" working on expanding (and creating) articles related to shipbuilding in the area. I added links to the three major shipyards to this document. I simply put them in a see also section. I am always open to suggestions and recommendations... thanks chiefhuggybear (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

City’s name

I think, yi in Mykolayiv more accurately reproduces sound /ji/, than i in Mykolaiv. So I suggest to change article’s name to Mykolayiv. Any objections? ~ aleksandrit (talk) 14:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Tell us the trues, are you the owner of domain name Mykolayiv? Why make it more complicated? Mykolaiv is the best possible spelling can be for the city! --68.36.49.223 (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Search on Google - pages from UK only:

• Mikolaev = 75
• Mykolaev = 120
• Nikolayev = 4,330
• Mykolayiv = 4,740
• Mykolaiv = 4,940
• Nikolaev = 44,800

Of course there are false positives on all of these, for example people called 'Mykolaiv' or 'Nikolayev'. Why don't you change it to Nikolaev? That is after all the normal English spelling.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Romanization of Ukrainian in Wikipedia is subject to the WP:UKR guideline. The "Mykolaiv" spelling is in compliance with that guideline.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:17, July 14, 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian says When possible, use a conventional English name instead of romanization. So why is it not possible to use 'Nikolaev' instead of 'Nikolayev'? And for that matter, why is a romanisation of the Ukrainian language name take preference over the most common English language name?--Toddy1 (talk) 20:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

This is a Ukrainian city, and the titles of articles about the Ukrainian cities are romanized using WP:UKR, not WP:RUS. WP:UKR explicitly states that [t]he Ukrainian National system of 1996 defines official place names in Ukraine, and is used by the United Nations. The name of the city in Ukrainian is "Миколаїв", hence the romanization produced by the Ukrainian National System of 1996 is "Mykolaiv".

WP:UKR does go further and says that [s]ome places are also known by familiar or traditional English forms, or names derived from other languages, but, unlike WP:RUS, it unfortunately does not provide any criteria as to what constitutes a "familiar" or "traditional" English form. Since WP:UKR fails us here, we need to consult the guideline that supercedes it in such matters, and in this case it would be WP:UE. WP:UE, in turn, explicitly states that Google hits are an unreliable test. In your case (based on the results you posted above), it exactly suggests that of all available variants no single term is predominant in English. I am discarding "Nikola(y)ev" spike as a fluke, by the way, because it is a fairly common Russian last name (and also a possible genitive form of an even more common first name Nikolay), which skews the results quite a bit. I would imagine that presently "Nikola(y)ev", when referred to the city proper, is about as common as all other variants you listed.

WK:UE further advises to give more weight to the variants used by verifiable reliable sources. This is not something that's easy to do unless one knows the topic fairly well, but the easiest way to approximate the results that would have been achieved by applying this recommendation in practice is to do a Google Books search. Here's what I got: mykolaiv|mykolayiv ukraine=666 hits; nikolaev|nikolayev ukraine=947 hits. As we can see, using this approach "Nikola(y)ev" is a bit more common (I would imagine because of the wealth of historical literature, which, of course, would use the Russified name), but it is hardly a 10:1 case any more.

When WP:UE cannot recommend a definite solution, the best course of action is to go with the default provisions of the most applicable guideline—in this case WP:UKR and its Ukrainian National System recommendation. Which brings us back to "Mykolaiv", of course.

All this, of course, is my interpretation of the guidelines, although thoroughly rooted in experience of dealing with similar matters in the past. In any case, you are very welcome to list this page on WP:RM or perhaps first drop a note at WT:UKRAINE, and see how it goes from there. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:52, July 14, 2009 (UTC)

Seems like russification of Ukraine is still continuing. Mykolaiv from Ukrainian Миколаїв is the best translating could be. PERIOD!!!--68.36.49.223 (talk) 03:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

According to Ukrainian translation from Ukraine to Latin, the proper way should be Mykolaiv http://life.pravda.com.ua/surprising/4b66e4e1d5c14/ And why make the name more complicated? Mykolaiv is just fine. The best spelling of all the spellings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.52.131 (talk) 15:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

While obtaining access to a copy of the actual document would be difficult, i.e., the "legal order (writ) Number 1065 by Prince Potemkin to Mikhail Faleev, dated 27th of August, 1789"; it would seem that the article's claim that the name "Mykolaiv is known from" this order is unlikely to be correct. My sense is that the founding naming order specified "Nikolaev" (Николаев). Can someone verify from a copy of the actual document? Tachypaidia (talk) 16:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

From secondary sources in English it appears clear that Potemkin named it after "St Nikolai". Moreover, the citation (http://www.gorsovet.mk.ua/center/history.ua) made in support of the statement does not do so, but rather supports the founding as "Николаев." Not a simple correction as the paragraph is shaped around this statement. Tachypaidia (talk) 01:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have located sufficient evidence in a primary source (https://sites.google.com/site/phoenixlibr/dokumenty/ordera-potemkina-faleevu), viz. order 14, that the the Potemkin order was Николаев. Being that the present claim in article is unsourced, this evidence, unless controverted, is sufficient to change the article. What is needed now is a fair explanation of the ascendancy of Миколаїв. Tachypaidia (talk) 22:58, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Russian variants do no require citation

Standard Wikipedia practice in eastern Ukrainian, where as many as half of the population speaks Russian natively, is to include the Russian variants on placenames. No citation is necessary any more than a citation is necessary for placing the Ukrainian variant in placenames where the majority of the community speaks Russian as their first language (as in the Crimea). The citation tags were nothing more than WP:POINTy editing by an anonymous editor who is pushing an anti-Russian Ukrainian POV. Citations are not necessary for these things. --Taivo (talk) 02:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not the reason to change Ukrainian variant to Russian. Time will show what language Ukrainian speak in Ukraine. --70.111.79.146 (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as the article titles go, the only thing that matters in the English Wikipedia is the language spoken in countries which it primarily targets. And that, unsurprisingly, is English. Place names come into English from various other languages, including Russian and Ukrainian. Which language English borrows a particular toponym from is a process neither Russians nor Ukrainians are able to control. It's that simple, and it's neither anti-Ukrainian, nor anti-Russian. It's just the way things are with languages.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); March 27, 2012; 18:12 (UTC)

Who said so that Russian variants do no require citation? I can say the same about you anti-Ukrainian Russian POV :) --Shveik (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Or officially

We have just had the page edited to include the word "officially" for one of the the English language names for the city, when in fact two of the city's English language names are used officially.

There are several variations of the city's name. In Ukrainian, the city is named Микола́їв, for which the transliteration is Mykolaiv, or officially, Mykolayiv. The Russian name is Никола́ев, which transliterates as Nikolaev or Nikolayev.

I would like to propose a change to the following:

There are several variations of the city's name. In Ukrainian, the city is named Микола́їв, for which the transliteration is Mykolaiv or Mykolayiv. The Russian name is Никола́ев, which transliterates as Nikolaev or Nikolayev. Both Mykolayiv and Nikolaev are used officially by the city council.

--Toddy1 (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"Both Mykolayiv and Nikolaev are used by the city council in English language materials." We don't know if the use of both in English is official or not, but it's clear that the city council uses both. --Taivo (talk) 21:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Latest corrections and Requests by john.lankenau@yahoo.com; vkontakt John Lankenau

From John Lankenau: john.lankenau@yahoo.com Skype: john.lankenau

We need the section on city government and politics filled in. Also we need the section on public health expanded to list how healthcare is provided in Mikolaev (I beleive the polyclinic system, which differs from the general medical practictioner system in the USA). It would also be interesting to add in the urban life section, how apartments/condominiums are bought and sold in Nikolaev. I heared from my new Ukrainian friend that interest rates are 30% so it would be almost impossible to get a loan to buy an apartment it seems to me. Is there still a long waiting list to obtain one's first apartment, as there was in Soviet times? Do adult children in their 20's still live with parents as was common during Soviet times?

Also if anyone knows whether Nikolaev's ship yards still build Russian navy ships, we can add that information.

john.lankenau@yahoo.com Skype: john.lankenau — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.46.3 (talk) 06:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC) ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.46.3 (talk) 11:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Demographics?

Percent Ukrainian, percent Russian? Sca (talk) 16:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 31 March 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The advice in WP:Romanization of Ukrainian/National transliteration table is persuasive. Even on the city council's web site the usage of the extra 'y' is not consistent. In any case WP:OFFICIAL does not require much deference to official names. Toddy1's Google results at Talk:Mykolaiv#City’s name show that in written English in the UK the extra 'y' is not universal. The proponent's statement that 'Mykolayiv' is more prominent by a wide margin is hard to credit. EdJohnston (talk) 16:17, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

---

Mykolaiv → Mykolayiv – User:Lvivske proposed a move on 16th March. It should be included on the requested moves page to open the discussion wider. Also, if a decision is made, then the page should be moved. Toddy1 (talk) 08:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

'Mykolayiv' is the official name for the city. On Google, it gets 13.7 million results. Meanwhile, mykolaiv gets 0.3 million results. This is a huge discrepancy. If common use and official trump something, lets move this quickly.--User:Lvivske (talk) 15:39, 16 March 2014

The city council website does indeed use that spelling in menus, and some of the time it uses "Mykolaiv" and "Nikolaev" in menus. In the text on the city council website, it mostly uses the spelling "Nikolaev", but on some pages "Mykolayiv" and "Mykolaiv". You will see also that pages of the website give equal prominence to both the Russian and Ukrainian languages. Please do not misinterpret this - this does not mean that they are any less Ukrainian that people who speak the Ukrainian language (a.k.a. little Russian).--Toddy1 (talk) 12:56, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm only talking about the two Ukrainian variants - Mykolayiv and Mykolaiv. The former is used officially and is common use, the latter is obscure. --Львівське (говорити) 21:31, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The latter is also used by the City Council.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:42, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Well the reason why we stuck with Mykolaiv over Mykolayiv in the first place was due to the Ukrainian National naming convention, which I believe was official by the Ukrainian government on some level.. It was just more simplified and easier to write than the other transliteration naming systems, where under the other systems we would have had articles such as Zaporizhzhia (extra letters which did nothing for the non-Ukrainian speaker, I would say). I suggest sticking to the current name and system, as it would be consistent with all other articles. Otherwise, we could be justified in moving Kiev → Kyyiv over Kyiv, whereas Kyyiv is definitely not more popular than Kyiv. § DDima 13:58, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, beginning words only for 'yi', I slipped on that one. Still, is this not a common use issue if Mykolayiv is more prominent by a wide margin? --Львівське (говорити) 14:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

If you look at Talk:Mykolaiv#City’s name you can see that I examined Google results for UK pages in 2009. It is not relevant to English Wikipedia what the prevailing name for this city is in Spain, etc. With these things there is of course the issue of false positives, etc. But it is hugely better than just opinion.--Toddy1 (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

History

The use of Mykolaiv in this history section, certainly from before 1920, is an anachronism and makes for a curious and jarring narrative. After the 1920s emerged a period of joint use between Nikolaev and Mykolaiv. Following the dissolution of the USSR and Ukrainian independence, the name Nikolaev is being phased out. I would like to hear some discussion on how best to transition the name in the history section. Tachypaidia (talk) 19:53, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Can't get this out of this green section. Would someone fix this for me. Tachypaidia (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

When you say that "Nikolaev" is being "phased out", who is phasing it out? Do you have any evidence for this? Please remember that this is English language Wikipedia - it does not matter what the city is called in Spanish/Ukrainian/Hebrew, etc.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

From a web-basis, it is nearly impossible to pull-up "Nikolaev" in reference to the city. Everything redirects. Referencing maps and newspaper/magazine articles are near exclusively Mykolaiv or variant thereof. Only with travel and airports is there an enduring remnant of Nikolaev (and in some internationally historic designations). I find the whole thing curious since the prior text of the history had put "Mykolaiv" onto the lips of Prince Potemkin, a strange thing! Leaving aside the argument of having to rename towns into an official language (say, in the USA, renaming "Santa Fe" to "Holy Faith", or "Los Angeles" to "The Angels", or an Native American place name, say, "Pensacola" to "Hairy People", or a supposed US city of "Nikolaev" to "Nicholton"), my question is with the WP policy on the retroactive replacement of historical names. 50.190.126.108 (talk) 18:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The internet must work differently where you are. Here there is no problem finding websites that call the city "Nikolaev" - a spelling that the city council uses on its website.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure where your "here" is, but in the USA internet the hits are few (a travel agency, a flower shop, and a few other trailing debris.) One can only imagine the outcry of the US hispanic community if the town names in the SW were targeted for Anglicization, since after all, we won the US-Mexican War. Anyway, at least, is there a reason why the citation of name in History section for the period prior to 1992 should not be normalized to the period? Tachypaidia (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem here is that the city has not changed name; you cannot say that until 1992 the city was called Nikolaev and now it is called Mykolaiv, because that is not true. It is not like Yekaterinoslav, which was renamed Dnepropetrovsk after the good Tsar lost power. If you read Talk:Mykolaiv#City’s name, there is no evidence that the Mykolaiv spelling of the city name is any more prevalent than other spellings in current English. If you read Talk:Mykolaiv#Requested move 31 March 2014 you will see that at least one editor has very firm views that the article should use a transliteration from the Ukrainian language.

What you want to do is something that you are unlikely to build a consensus for.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

All you have to do is look at Mykolaiv/Nikolaev's official page here to see that even the official web page uses both English spellings. The title is "Mykolayiv City Council", but the first sentence on the home page says, "the Nikolaev City Council’s Internet-portal." --Taivo (talk) 06:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

What I noticed is that frequently articles come up through the Google translate application where the original underlying text gives "Mykolaiv" (Cyrillic characters) but it shows up as "Nikolaev" in Latin transcription. Were that translation function to change, numerous "Nikolaevs" would pass into oblivion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.202.6.195 (talk) 16:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

What makes this unsettling is that this isn't a transliteration of Nikolaev into Ukrainian (which it can easily handle) but a translation. By analogy, take the good English name of "Johnstown" (PA); and say it took up a sizable German residency, and so it begins posting the city name as "Hanston". Well, that's a different name (cf. Hanston, Kansas). In any instance, it would certain seem that on anachronistic grounds that in the History section the city should certainly be cited as "Nikolaev" in the pre-Soviet period, and then note the transition to the dual-use of the names beginning with the Soviet Ukrainization (korenizatsiya) policy in the 1920s. Tachypaidia (talk) 05:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

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