Talk:Neil Nitin Mukesh
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Feb 2018
edit@Saladin1987: Regarding your edits and points raised :
- [1] can't be used as a Reliable source as per WP:ICTF#Guidelines on sources and WP:ICTFFAQ. Not only that, it clearly comes under "News Gossip". Just yesterday we had a discussion on this very source. See User talk:Cyphoidbomb#A cupcake for you!
Youtube is not used as source
- Youtube videos can be used as both Primary and Secondary sources if from a Verifiable and Established source. In this case it is India Today. Check Wikipedia:Reliable source examples#Are IRC, Myspace, Facebook, and YouTube reliable sources? which clearly mentions ->
YouTube: YouTube and other video-sharing sites are generally not considered reliable sources because anyone can create or manipulate a video clip and upload without editorial oversight, just as with a self-published website. However, official channels of notable organisations, such as Monty Python's channel, may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed, or as a secondary source if they can be trace to a reliable publisher. Videos may also be used as a convenience link for material originally published elsewhere. In all cases, care should be undertaken to ensure that the video is genuinely authorised by the copyright holder. Be careful not to link to material that is a copyright violation. In general, unless the video is clearly marked as "official" with a name strongly identified with the notable publisher or source, best practice is to treat it as a copyright violation and not use it.
- Me and @Cyphoidbomb: had a similar discussion in Talk:Salim–Sulaiman
delhi kayasthas are punjabi kayasthas
- That's WP:OR. Non of the sources mention any specific community "Punjabi" with "Kayastha". Most of the time the sources say Kayastha from Delhi.
Even your Hindustan times source doesn't say Punjabi Kayastha
- @Cyphoidbomb: - This link here [[2]] has this line
Neil Nitin Mukesh said, “It is brilliant to see the family getting together. I’d like to call the big fat family get together rather than the big fat Punjabi family. It all just feels like a family holiday.”
- Kind of ambiguous, but it seems neither he wants to call the family get together Punjabi and nor there is any explicit mention of Neil Nitin Mukesh's ethnicity anywhere in the source. Moreover big fat Punjabi family might well mean anything from his fiancé's family to a metaphor altogether. I believe a better explicit source is needed to not move in the Original Search territory.
- Will it be better to frame the sentence as "... in a Hindu family of Kayastha, Gujarati and Punjabi origins..." for now? Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Fylindfotberserk: Random thought: I'm pretty sure that the community at WT:IN prefers that caste labels for living people come from self-identification. Some people, like Amitabh Bachchan have rejected being labeled as part of a caste, and trying to derive caste based on surnames constitutes original research. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: I get it. Now in the India Today Youtube Video, Nitin Mukesh has explicitly said that his father, singer Mukesh was a Kayastha from Delhi and mother was a Gujarati Brahmin. I believe there should not be an issue to add Kayastha and Gujarati in the sentence, but definitely not "Punjabi Kayastha" together. I am doubtful of the HT link :"I’d like to call the big fat family get together rather than the big fat Punjabi family." doesn't seem like a self identification .. I believe we can remove the Punjabi part. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:41, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Fylindfotberserk: Random thought: I'm pretty sure that the community at WT:IN prefers that caste labels for living people come from self-identification. Some people, like Amitabh Bachchan have rejected being labeled as part of a caste, and trying to derive caste based on surnames constitutes original research. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Well delhi is home to majority Punjabis, Also why would news reporter report him as a Punjabi if he was not one. Although i agree, majority of Hindus dont brag about their castes and i think we can write kayastha or Gujarati and Punjabi origin or we can just mention kayastha and mention punjabi people and gujarati people in the category. Also there are severa sources which mention kayastha but kayastha are bengali, punjabi and gujarati all of whom are completely different to each other. We can have kayastha family in the early life and add both punjabi people and gujarati people in category . What do you say — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saladin1987 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- In the Indian Today video, his father Nitin Mukesh mentions "Kayastha from Delhi" for his father and "Gujarati Brahmin" for his mother explicitly. No mention of Punjabi was there. Mentioning Punjabi Kayastha in the article would be original search. A Kayastha from Delhi can have ancestry from Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan for being close to Delhi. By my personal experience, most "Mathurs" I've met or known are from Uttar Pradesh.
- You said
Also why would news reporter report him as a Punjabi if he was not one
-
- 1)Because Bollywood Life is a Gossip Site. They can write anything. [3] can't be used as a Reliable source as per WP:ICTF#Guidelines on sources and WP:ICTFFAQ. Not only that, it clearly comes under "News Gossip". See User talk:Cyphoidbomb#A cupcake for you!
- 2)HindustanTimes is a reliable source, but as Cyphoid has said
"I'm pretty sure that the community at WT:IN prefers that caste labels for living people come from self-identification. Some people, like Amitabh Bachchan have rejected being labeled as part of a caste, and trying to derive caste based on surnames constitutes original research."
Neil Nitin Mukesh didn't explicitly say anything like "I am a Punjabi" like for example in Sanjay Leela Bhansali article's source [4] where Mr. Bhansali has said he's Gujarati clearly. As well as the fact that the word "Punjabi" in HT source is rather ambiguous as explained in my last post. We need to find a a better source which similar to Bhansali's one. I am removing Punjabi because of ambiguity and unreliability. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
The subjects food habits and interest in Gujarati folk dance
editCopying discussion from User talk:Fylindfotberserk
Discussion from User talk:Fylindfotberserk
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- According to User:UserGK23's POV as shown by his/her recent edits here and here, the subject's Gujarati food habits and penchant for Gujarati dance form Dandiya Raas should not be mentioned. My point is, a long standing content needs proper discussion here in the article's talkpage rather than mine (copied above). Secondly, since the subject himself is open about his lifestyle "My grandmother was a Gujarati. So lunch and dinner at home comprise vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi. I never miss the dandia-raas back in Mumbai" in a reliable source [5], I believe there is no harm keeping it. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC) Pinging Cyphoidbomb for suggestions. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't think a person's food habits is relevant to their "Personal Life". Fylindfotberserk gave an example of Eric Bana's article which states his hobbies and interests but none of them mention his food habits.
This article discussing his food habits is also from a decade ago. As per Wikipedia's policy on Biographies of Living Persons - "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information" and this content seems to serve no purpose other than to make the subject appear more "Gujarati". UserGK23 (talk) 13:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- OK. Lets ask a few more people. Pinging @Cyphoidbomb:, @Krimuk2.0:, @Atlantic306:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- UserGK23 Please don't allege that the article likes to make him look Gujarati. That's your POV since Neil Nitin Mukesh quoted what he eats and what he enjoys. This isn't misleading since it was issued form TOI. Pont whether we can get to a consensus regarding this. Other similar BLP articles will also be affected by this consensus. Let people come and give their opinion. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm not clear on what specifically is the dispute, since the diffs linked above appear to focus on the order of Mathur and Gujarati. I don't see any legitimate rationale for flipping Mathur and Gujarati. It seems like run-of-the-mill ethnic-warring nonsense and/or patriarchial bias. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: Check this edit. It seems you didn't notice that the content "
He follows a mostly Gujarati lifestyle at home, and eats Gujarati food such as vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi for lunch and dinner and frequently attends dandia-raas.
" had been removed which is a bigger dispute here. According to the other user, it is "misleading" and a ploy "to make the subject appear more Gujarati" about which we already had an extensive discussion at my talkpage (copied above in the Collapse Box). However, Neil Nitin Mukesh's food habits and love of Dandia is declared by himself as per this source : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/I-stripped-completely-Neil/articleshow/5065194.cms. - As far as "run-of-the-mill ethnic-warring nonsense and/or patriarchial bias" is concerned, it has always been a problem in this article ever since contents about the subject's paternal heritage had been added. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:47, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: Check this edit. It seems you didn't notice that the content "
- Keep the information is reliably sourced and its removal seems to be based on ethnic warring, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 13:17, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Recent removal
edit@Bradv: Hi, regarding this removal, the caste is not contested, rather it is the order in which the castes are written in the article, with which the IP has problems. The video source comes from a reliable news agency India Today and the person'e father self-identifies the castes (in that particular order), which is an important policy for Indian BLP articles as per WP:INB. Note that article faced similar POV push to remove/downplay the person's Gujarati ancestry in the past by sock master User:Karkanistan and their sock User:UserGK23 as evident in the talk page discussion Talk:Neil Nitin_Mukesh#The subjects food habits and interest in Gujarati folk dance.
Also note Cyphoidbomb's comment above. his exact words I'm not clear on what specifically is the dispute, since the diffs linked above appear to focus on the order of Mathur and Gujarati. I don't see any legitimate rationale for flipping Mathur and Gujarati. It seems like run-of-the-mill ethnic-warring nonsense and/or patriarchial bias.
- Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Fylindfotberserk, per WP:BLPRS,
contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion.
Once there is consensus among the editors here that the information is relevant and properly sourced, and there's an agreed-upon wording, it can be added back in. You can use {{fper}} to make that request, or just ping me and I can do it. – bradv🍁 14:34, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Bradv: It was not "contentious" until that IP started its disruptive POV pushing today. The thing already got consensus above. I'll ask the people involved again. Pinging @Cyphoidbomb, Sitush, Krimuk2.0, and Atlantic306: for discussion. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Possibly this user is also a sock. One of the things they did, just like the IP was to change the order of ethnicities/castes "Mathur" and "Gujarati Shrimali Brahmin", with edit summaries that reflected patriarchal bias [6]. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:06, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'm of the opinion that the longstanding order prior to the recent changes should be maintained. In a case where a person describes themselves as 50% A and 50% B, the order doesn't matter one iota to me, and is ultimately arbitrary (provided that we didn't insert our own personal bias...) But arbitrary changes, or perhaps I should say changes that seem arbitrary, are disruptive. There's a reason known only to this new editor for why a new order is superior, otherwise they wouldn't have made the change. And that sort of thing seems likely to be related to the culture/ethnic/caste/gender/misc.-warring that plagues Indian articles. Whether it's someone pushing Telugu before Tamil or flipping Mammootty and Mohanlal, these sorts of arbitrary changes just irritate the community and should be disallowed once an article has become stable and people are actively trying to maintain a consistent level of quality. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: Yup, the content should be restored as per WP:STATUSQUO. This user under their various avatars have disrupted the article time to time. Also I was gonna mention WP:NOYT according to which: YouTube official channels of notable organisations can be used as sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- I also agree with the YouTube sentiment. YouTube isn't a source, it's a broadcasting mechanism. If the entity that produced the video is verified and otherwise reliable, where the content appears is irrelevant. WP:RSPYT Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: I agree. The channel is also verified, no COPYVIO either. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- I also agree with the YouTube sentiment. YouTube isn't a source, it's a broadcasting mechanism. If the entity that produced the video is verified and otherwise reliable, where the content appears is irrelevant. WP:RSPYT Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: Yup, the content should be restored as per WP:STATUSQUO. This user under their various avatars have disrupted the article time to time. Also I was gonna mention WP:NOYT according to which: YouTube official channels of notable organisations can be used as sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Agree with reverting to the previous stable version as the YouTube channel is the official channel of MidDay which is a reliable source imv, Atlantic306 (talk) 20:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)