Talk:None but the Brave

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to None but the Brave, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 18:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

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None But the Brave → None but the Brave – but is an adverb, a preposition, and a conjunction. If but were an adverb in this title, capitalization may be all right. However, "An adverb is a word that changes or simplifies the meaning of a verb, adjective, other adverb, clause, or sentence." For the film title, but neither changes nor simplifies the word none, which is treated as a noun. Perhaps but can be either a three-letter preposition or a coordinating conjunction. Nevertheless, WP:NCCAPS discourages capitalizing prepositions that are no more than four letters and coordinating conjunctions. In other words, but is not an adverb in the title of this 1960s film, so it should not be capitalized, regardless of which title sources use. Edit: The poster says "NONE BUT THE BRAVE" without lowercases. George Ho (talk) 02:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• None But the Brave (1928 film) → None but the Brave (1928 film)

• Oppose Support not terribly strongly: Reliable sources cited so far all capitalize "But" in this case. The movie poster has it in ALL CAPS, so it's hard to say for sure what the original intent was. "But" is definitely a preposition in this case, and NCCAPS would have us lower-case it, but I don't think we should do that against the preponderance of the sources. If a bunch (not already cited here) do actually lower case it, indicating off-WP use is very mixed, then I'd go with NCCAPS on this and support.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC) Changing to support; the sourcing below (so far) indicates mixed usage, so we should follow MOS:CAPS.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:18, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, sources, like articles, have not mentioned why but was capitalized, not de-capitalized, for this title, so I would treat them as unreliable. Even I would treat poster as mere historical significance, not 100% reliable (but 99% reliable). --George Ho (talk) 16:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Update: I will create a separate discussion about the 1928 film soon. --George Ho (talk) 17:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Almost forgot about the poster. --George Ho (talk) 17:47, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose In general, with artistic and creative works it is best to go by the naming used in most reliable sourcing. If there a clear indication from some kind of source that would show the official name's capitalization, such as a press release from the production studio or a copyright filing for the film that could give us a clearer answer.--Yaksar (let's chat) 17:57, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Sources that use but: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. None official. Other sources use But. I'll be searching only official sources then. --George Ho (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Yaksar and SMcCandlish, I found official sources (from ebay): [8][9]. I'm unsure about whether others are official: [10][11]. There were novelizations: [12][13]. However, the official sources only use "NONE BUT THE BRAVE". --George Ho (talk) 18:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The book source from the American Film Institute using lowercase for "but" may perhaps be the most convincing. However, the press photos from eBay you linked (disregarding the ones that used all caps) seem to capitalize "But". I'm going to see if we can turn up other helpful answers and then perhaps reassess my !vote.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It didn't use "But"; it used "BUT". The DVD uses just "NONE BUT THE BRAVE", not "None but the Brave" or "None But the Brave". --George Ho (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

What are you referring to by "it" here.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The press photo(s) from Warner Bros. (directly, not indirectly). --George Ho (talk) 19:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• Follow MOS:CT: Wikipedia has a house style, and we should just apply it unless there is some strong reason not to (e.g., if the content of the film or several reliable sources said that the capitalization of particular words in the title was noteworthy). But I'm not enough of a grammar expert to currently express an opinion about what part of speech this word is being used as in this title. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:26, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Follow-up comment: Support, as it is my understanding that MOS:CT prescribes lowercase 'but' here. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:55, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support. The whole purpose of having a manual of style is to avoid having these endless discussions about individual instances and thus ensure consistency. But in this title is clearly a preposition ("none except the brave") and is one of fewer than five letters, so the MOS calls for lowercase but here. Deor (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Not exactly pointless; one 'oppose' vote is enough to make the proposal not uncontroversial. --George Ho (talk) 16:45, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support – even the one oppose here has no rationale for the oppose. Surely we're not going to start doing capitalization by trolling for clues on eBay, when we already have a consensus style for composition titles. Dicklyon (talk) 03:57, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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