Talk:November 2024 Amsterdam attacks

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: There is already another article about this, Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam.

GrabUp - Talk 04:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I responded on my User page to your comment. I also started a Talk page on the Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam article to initiate a discussion about what to do about it. Cheers. N2e (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBPIA

@Nythar: Should WP:ARBPIA apply here? GrabUp - Talk 06:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@GrabUp: It very likely does because the attacks are directly related to the current war and involve Israelis and pro-Palestinians. Nythar (💬-🍀) 06:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Requesting to protect: Daniel Case, Liz. Thanks. GrabUp - Talk 06:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Also other title in the same incident: Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam. GrabUp - Talk 06:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Are antisemitic attacks ones whose pages are protected? The New York Times writes: "Israeli and Dutch officials described [the attacks] as antisemitic attacks." And that "Prime Minister Dick Schoof of the Netherlands ... said in a statement early Friday that there had been antisemitic attacks on Israelis in Amsterdam, calling them “completely unacceptable.”"[1]

If the answer is yes, at least can someone put those quotes in the article? Thanks.--184.153.21.19 (talk) 07:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The statement about the authorities has been added to the lede. ToadetteEdit (talk) 08:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Small change in the background section.

In the background section it currently reads “ The Maccabi Tel Aviv vs. Ajax match”. In european football the home team is mentioned before the away team, the current text therefore indicates that the match was played in Tel Aviv.

” The Ajax vs. Maccabi Tel Aviv match” would be the correct wording. Jjoonnii (talk) 08:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jjoonnii, thanks for spotting that! Will be changed shortly. ToadetteEdit (talk) 08:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Who did what?

The Maccabi fans attacked people, fought with police, and set off fireworks yet the article says they're the victims? What is going on here. LamontCranston (talk) 09:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@LamontCranston: Please cite reliable sources. GrabUp - Talk 09:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FOVHJx4HSpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPsIV3ZS6f4 LamontCranston (talk) 11:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024

Add the category Category:Jews and Judaism in Amsterdam 94.252.74.157 (talk) 09:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done Nythar (💬-🍀) 09:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Israeli fans provoked the attack

Reports are also coming from sources that Israeli fans first chanted anti-Arab slogans, vandalized private property, and even attacked a local taxi driver, confronting law enforcement. We should cover both viewpoints, not just label this attack against Israelis due to media bias toward Israel. GrabUp - Talk 09:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

References

General question: Are Middle East Eye and TRT World trustworthy sources? I mean, we also don’t cite Al Jazeera here on Wikipedia, don’t we?--FPSalman (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they are reliable sources. Who told you we don’t cite Al Jazeera? GrabUp - Talk 11:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@FPSalman: Even Israeli news outlet confirmed this. GrabUp - Talk 11:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, Al Jazeera is Qatar’s governmental propaganda channel. I always thought Wikipedia was professional, but okay.--FPSalman (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@FPSalman: BBC is also a British government-funded channel, so is it also a propaganda channel? Frankly, yes, BBC is a biased news outlet towards Israel. GrabUp - Talk 11:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not just TRT and middle east eye, Times of Israel , Wafa, BBC all reported the same too Stephan rostie (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

TRT is a state-owned enterprise, and Middle East Eye has been criticized for bias as well. Generikuser (talk) 15:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Generikuser: What about BBC? Is it not state-owned? GrabUp - Talk 15:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a clear difference between TRT and BBC. TRT has been cited here (WP:TRT) as being unreliable in cases of COI. As the topic matter at hand involves Israeli citizens, Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest. BBC has been cited here as being reliable as per consensus on Wikipedia.

DarkSpartan (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@DarkSpartan: They were not talking about what Wikipedia accepts or not; they were saying TRT is state-owned, so I gave the example of the BBC, which is also state-owned. Consensus can be changed, but that’s not what we are discussing here. Even the BBC mentions what TRT and the Middle East Monitor have stated. GrabUp - Talk 15:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it worth embedding a video of the violence in the article?

Reuters have confirmed footage showing Israelis being beaten up by rioters https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyge1587e5t?post=asset%3A714a11c4-6387-40f5-9b6c-483a712424ba#post now that there is a credible news source using footage rather than just social media, should we include it in the article? שי - LionFireKing404 10:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Does the video footage add any information to the article that isn't better conveyed as text? --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 10:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

in a similar vein as to how in the pager explosions article there is a video to better illustrate the text, there should be a video here too for context שי - LionFireKing404 10:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The video in the pager explosions article is from CCTV so can be used much more easily as it doesn't require compliance with WP:NFCC. The video you're referring to seems to come from X and seems to have been recorded by a person and there's no indication it is available under a free licence. Therefore it can only be used if it complies with NFCC which is quite difficult for a case like this unless it's particularly iconic. Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

add antisemitism to the "Motives" box

Many politicians and sources have cited that the attack was antisemitic as well as antizionist, it should be included in the "Motives" section שי - LionFireKing404 10:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

just because politicians have claimed the attacks were anti semitic doesnt confirm it. 94.187.23.65 (talk) 15:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

where is the source to the reports of israeli attackers? There is no video, no picture, no nothing. You inserted a lie. Bettef wait to have a real source. 77.127.182.202 (talk) 10:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The preceding events regarding Maccabi instigation and violence are described and sourced in the article. The mentioned sources are WP:RS, including Times of Israel and BBC, for instance. 84.248.71.202 (talk) 11:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Number of people hurt in the attacks

The article now says "at least five." The NYT, updated a few minutes ago, says "The police in Amsterdam said in a statement on Friday that ... five people had been hospitalized ... Israel’s Foreign Ministry said at least 10 Israeli citizens had been hurt in the violence and two others were missing.... The police did not comment on the reports that people were missing."[2] This is consistent as to the number injured with the two refs in the article currently.

The most accurate statement as to the number injured would seem to be: "at least 10 Israelis were injured, with five of them hospitalized." 184.153.21.19 (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

BBC: Some Maccabi fans were "looking for a fight" according to witness

A witness reported seeing Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters on the Amsterdam metro "going up and down the carriages three or four times looking for a fight" according to the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyge1587e5t). An experienced editor might want to add this info to the article. Wikimicky1 (talk) 11:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

this article from Israel Hayom shows that the attacks against the Maccabi supporters might have been premeditated - מהתארגנות נהגי המוניות הערבים בטלגרם ועד גניבת הדרכונים: תיעוד מהאינסטגרם של אחד המחבלים | ישראל היום שי - LionFireKing404 11:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@LionFireKing404: Israeli news outlet also confirms it. GrabUp - Talk 11:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

the link I attached quotes "hang palestinian flags in the city, they [the israelis] will come like rats" as a message on a WhatsApp chat שי - LionFireKing404 11:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The attacks have been prompted by Israeli fans yelling anti-Arab slurs, pulling down Palestinian flags, attacking an Arab taxi driver, threatening passers-by and interrupting the minute of silence for the victims of the 2024 Spanish floods with whistles before the match.

This might have contributed to the attacks. The article should also mention that the attacks were premediated, as WhatsApp traffic shows, first picture: https://www.geenstijl.nl/5179691/jiddische-derby Grwen (talk) 11:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

this article corroborates that too - מהתארגנות נהגי המוניות הערבים בטלגרם ועד גניבת הדרכונים: תיעוד מהאינסטגרם של אחד המחבלים | ישראל היום שי - LionFireKing404 11:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The mayor of Amsterdam, Femke Halsema, notes in her press conference that on Telegram people were advocating to go on the hunt for jews (jodenjacht). https://www.destentor.nl/lelystad/femke-halsema-op-telegram-werd-opgeroepen-tot-jodenjacht-dat-is-een-schande~a404b6463/ Grwen (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Persecution against the Jews in Amstardam 2024

This should be the title of this article. Pure Islamic/Arab antisemitic barbaric behavior against the jews. Islamic nazism is rising in europe sadly. 2A06:C701:9CA2:CE00:55F7:D3F5:4BF3:7B1A (talk) 11:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit request: change to neutral language

in the leading paragraph change :

but this was later denied

to:

The Israeli government has walked back on sending an IDF rescue mission to the Netherlands

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-government-walks-back-plan-to-send-idf-rescue-mission-to-the-netherlands/ 109.64.104.168 (talk) 12:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Pogram?

The lede says "...that some described as a pogram." Should it not be "pogrom"?31.221.247.79 (talk) 12:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit request

The table on the side is fake: you compare "Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C.'s fans" and "AFC Ajax's fans and locals". But the attackers were nor AFC Ajax's fans, neither locals. They are Muslim immigrants taking a refuge in Holland. Also " 6 injured" is underestimation. 2A06:C701:70A6:E200:248A:9FE3:1593:C0AE (talk) 12:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DatGuy^Talk_Contribs 14:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Pogrom

Pogrom label does not belong in opening paragraph, as much as it does not belong at the opening paragraph of Huwara rampage. Also why were all the paragraphs recombined to one? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Belligerents

The description of "Amsterdam locals" in the infobox is a bit too vague and generic. Does someone have something more on point it can be changed to? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone please provide context and neutrality.

The way this article is currently framed is that the Israeli fans behaved poorly and then as a postscript, there happened to be a riot and they were attacked. The lede now is all about what they did wrong and next to nothing about the actual riots. Could someone please straighten this out with some context and neutrality. The Maccabi fans interrupting the minute of silence wasn't nice but that's in the lede?? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the instigating aggressive and racist behavior by the Israeli fans prior to the eruption of violence should indeed be mentioned in the lede. Though i agree with you that booing during the minute of the flood victims isn’t that important or much related here.

As for the reason that there is not much said about the violent incident details itself is that there is not much things to tell, just a violent riot that caused 10 injuries after a football match, thats all. Stephan rostie (talk) 13:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of 2024 antisemitic riots in Amsterdam into November 2024 Amsterdam riot

Two articles, one topic. Wikishovel (talk) 13:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024 (3)

I suggest wipining the "Israeli football fans yelled anti-Arab slurs,[2] pulling down Palestinian flags while assaulting structures and homes" because it didn't happen. The only resource stating it is the Wikipedia one, other resources state the attack was of antisemitic nature, not because the Israelis ripped Palestinian flags or anything.the writing of this page is pure misinformation and should be wiped from Wikipedia immediately. 2A06:C701:433F:E600:9B2:F1C0:2533:8066 (talk) 13:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: that sentence is currently sourced by the Times of Israel, a reliable source. Wikishovel (talk) 13:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024 (4)

Remove the motive in the infobox as no reliable source warrants mentioning the motive in wikivoice

And change "Pro-palestinian mobs" into "Pro-palestinians" to serve NPOV — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 14:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I fully agree with this. The motive here is not provided by a reliable source and as of current is just speculation. This needs to be clarified within the article. Especially since in the article itself it mentioned that the Maccabi fans allegedly engaged in multiple actions (like tearing down flags, praising the IDF, interrupted silence for the 2024 floods of Spain, incidents with local taxi men etc.). Which can provide a wide range of reasonings for the attacks.

So to comply with NPOV. I recommend we rectify this in the infobox and beginning of the article. Imteghren (talk) 14:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

Template:Infobox military attack appears to be the wrong type of infobox; can we change it to something else? BilledMammal (talk) 14:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I would go with Template:Infobox civil conflict. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@EliasAntonakos See when I said Go to the talk page and attempt to generate consensus for this; it's not obvious that this was an attack on only one side; there's no RS for Amsterdam's National Monument; no RS for car ramming; "mob" is POV?

Do not unilaterally revert multiple times. Please undo your most recent edit and join the discussion. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Perpetrators: Fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv, Pro-Palestinian groups

Defenders: Fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv, Amsterdam residents, Pro-Palestine groups

Motive: Alleged Islamophobia, anti-semetic and anti-Zionist sentiment

@Smallangryplanet @WikiJunkie Trying to fit both of these in a one-tab infobox results in an abomination. This is clearly a clash between two groups. Can we use Template:Infobox civil conflict? Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That makes more sense, yes. I'll go ahead and make that change now. Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed, good shout. Was trying to figure out which template would suit better, not sure how I missed civil conflict! Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Move made without consensus

The Move of the article—from November 2024 Amsterdam attacks to November 2024 Amsterdam attack—made by User:Qhairun in this edit (diff), was made without prior consensus, and should be reversed until discussion is had and consensus is formed. Nearly all the sources used in the early editing of this article showed that multiple attacks occurred, in various parts of the city of Amsterdam, and thus the earlier article title with the plural "attacks" is quite appropriate; but changes should be done by consensus.

PROPOSAL: Move the article back to its original name November 2024 Amsterdam attacks. Move will need to be made by an administrator with privileges to do the switch over a name that is currently a redirect to this article. N2e (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Qhairun changed it from "attacks" to "riots", and @BilledMammal changed it back to "attack" here [3]. I think they probably just made a typo.

Support it being returned to November 2024 Amsterdam attacks. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed BilledMammal (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to both commenters on the proposal, and to the OM (OrigMover?) for changing the article back to the original name so quickly! Sometimes Wikipedia can do these things quite well and expeditiously. Would be okay to just archive this Talk page section now. N2e (talk) 15:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of Hakim Ziyech's response

under the "reactions" section, you could mention Notable People, former Ajax player and current Galatasaray player Ziyech posted on his instagram story, with footballer Eran Zahavi responding - see article - Zeish mocks Maccabi Tel Aviv fans: "When it's not women and children, they run away" שי - LionFireKing404 14:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Islamophobia in Infobox

Thesource for this doesn’t support the claim - it’s also probably given too much weight, given this allegation is a very minor aspect compared to the allegations of antisemitism. BilledMammal (talk) 15:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Per that article and many others, the Maccabi fans were doing "Anti-Arab" chants, seems pretty cut and dry to me as well as a significant aspect of why it happened. Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably Anti-Arab racism, not Islamophobia, then. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That would be closer, but to avoid WP:OR or WP:SYNTH issues we would need a source saying it is that - we can’t determine that ourselves. BilledMammal (talk) 15:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

How could "Anti-Arab" chants not be "Anti-Arab racism"? (Sincerely asking!) Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a very good question. It would seem that anti-Arab chants are definitely anti-Arab racism. Simonm223 (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:OR, to include a statement we need a source that explicitly supports the statement. That means that source would support us stating that anti-Arab chants occurred, but not that anti-Arab racism did, because that requires interpretation.

While the interpretation is reasonable, it is still forbidden, unless we can find a source supporting. Also, I still think we are giving it too much emphasis - it probably shouldn’t be in the infobox, and definitely shouldn’t be the first listed, given the lack of coverage of it. BilledMammal (talk) 15:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

So you're saying that anti-Arab chants can possibly not be racist?!??!? That seems like something of a stretch. Simonm223 (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m saying that per policy we need a source explicitly saying "anti-Arab racism". Do we have any such source? BilledMammal (talk) 15:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

No, that's not what WP:OR says. It would be one thing if RS mentioned 'chants' by the fans of the team and we SYNTH'd it into "Anti-Arab racism". But RS repeatedly mention 'Anti-Arab chants', and so unless you think there is some way that is not explicitly saying that these were Anti-Arab chants, I don't understand the complaint. Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

But just for you I've gone out and found a source! Content warning...

As reported by the Clash Report, the Maccabi fans, who were protected by police, “chanted anti-Arab slurs and a genocidal song in Amsterdam”, including lines such as “there are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”, “Let the IDF win to fuck the Arabs” and “Fuck you Palestine”.

(https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-hooligans-cry-foul-after-instigating-riots-amsterdam) Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we have that for this being "caused by" antisemitism, and being "part of" antisemitism during the Israel–Hamas war? I'm genuinely asking. I don't doubt that there could be sourcing for this, but I don't see it now. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Attack was done by lsraelis

A mob of Israelis started attacking locals, almost lynching a taxi driver, but this page is acting like they’re the victims. Title should at least be changed to “clashes” to show that both sides were at fault here, although I’d argue if anything most blame falls on the Israelis. 2600:1011:B34D:D4E0:C0F7:DA0D:4BBC:8B88 (talk) 15:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)