Talk:November 2024 Amsterdam attack
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Feedback from New Page Review process
editI left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: There is already another article about this, Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam.
GrabUp - Talk 04:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- I responded on my User page to your comment. I also started a Talk page on the Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam article to initiate a discussion about what to do about it. Cheers. N2e (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
editThere is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
@Nythar: Should WP:ARBPIA apply here? GrabUp - Talk 06:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @GrabUp: It very likely does because the attacks are directly related to the current war and involve Israelis and pro-Palestinians. Nythar (💬-🍀) 06:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Requesting to protect: Daniel Case, Liz. Thanks. GrabUp - Talk 06:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Daniel Case: Also other title in the same incident: Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam. GrabUp - Talk 06:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Requesting to protect: Daniel Case, Liz. Thanks. GrabUp - Talk 06:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Are antisemitic attacks ones whose pages are protected? The New York Times writes: "Israeli and Dutch officials described [the attacks] as antisemitic attacks." And that "Prime Minister Dick Schoof of the Netherlands ... said in a statement early Friday that there had been antisemitic attacks on Israelis in Amsterdam, calling them “completely unacceptable.”"[1]
- If the answer is yes, at least can someone put those quotes in the article? Thanks.--184.153.21.19 (talk) 07:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- The statement about the authorities has been added to the lede. ToadetteEdit (talk) 08:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Small change in the background section.
editIn the background section it currently reads “ The Maccabi Tel Aviv vs. Ajax match”. In european football the home team is mentioned before the away team, the current text therefore indicates that the match was played in Tel Aviv.
” The Ajax vs. Maccabi Tel Aviv match” would be the correct wording. Jjoonnii (talk) 08:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Jjoonnii, thanks for spotting that! Will be changed shortly. ToadetteEdit (talk) 08:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Who did what?
editThe Maccabi fans attacked people, fought with police, and set off fireworks yet the article says they're the victims? What is going on here. LamontCranston (talk) 09:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024
edit | This edit request to November 2024 Amsterdam attacks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add the category Category:Jews and Judaism in Amsterdam 94.252.74.157 (talk) 09:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Done Nythar (💬-🍀) 09:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Israeli fans provoked the attack
editReports are also coming from sources that Israeli fans first chanted anti-Arab slogans, vandalized private property, and even attacked a local taxi driver, confronting law enforcement. We should cover both viewpoints, not just label this attack against Israelis due to media bias toward Israel.[1][2] GrabUp - Talk 09:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
References
- General question: Are Middle East Eye and TRT World trustworthy sources? I mean, we also don’t cite Al Jazeera here on Wikipedia, don’t we?--FPSalman (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, they are reliable sources. Who told you we don’t cite Al Jazeera? GrabUp - Talk 11:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @FPSalman: Even Israeli news outlet confirmed this. GrabUp - Talk 11:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, Al Jazeera is Qatar’s governmental propaganda channel. I always thought Wikipedia was professional, but okay.--FPSalman (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @FPSalman: BBC is also a British government-funded channel, so is it also a propaganda channel? Frankly, yes, BBC is a biased news outlet towards Israel. GrabUp - Talk 11:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, Al Jazeera is Qatar’s governmental propaganda channel. I always thought Wikipedia was professional, but okay.--FPSalman (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Not just TRT and middle east eye, Times of Israel , Wafa, BBC all reported the same too Stephan rostie (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Is it worth embedding a video of the violence in the article?
editReuters have confirmed footage showing Israelis being beaten up by rioters https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyge1587e5t?post=asset%3A714a11c4-6387-40f5-9b6c-483a712424ba#post now that there is a credible news source using footage rather than just social media, should we include it in the article? שי - LionFireKing404 10:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Does the video footage add any information to the article that isn't better conveyed as text? --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 10:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- in a similar vein as to how in the pager explosions article there is a video to better illustrate the text, there should be a video here too for context שי - LionFireKing404 10:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
add antisemitism to the "Motives" box
editMany politicians and sources have cited that the attack was antisemitic as well as antizionist, it should be included in the "Motives" section שי - LionFireKing404 10:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
where is the source to the reports of israeli attackers? There is no video, no picture, no nothing. You inserted a lie. Bettef wait to have a real source. 77.127.182.202 (talk) 10:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- The preceding events regarding Maccabi instigation and violence are described and sourced in the article. The mentioned sources are WP:RS, including Times of Israel and BBC, for instance. 84.248.71.202 (talk) 11:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Number of people hurt in the attacks
editThe article now says "at least five." The NYT, updated a few minutes ago, says "The police in Amsterdam said in a statement on Friday that ... five people had been hospitalized ... Israel’s Foreign Ministry said at least 10 Israeli citizens had been hurt in the violence and two others were missing.... The police did not comment on the reports that people were missing."[2] This is consistent as to the number injured with the two refs in the article currently.
The most accurate statement as to the number injured would seem to be: "at least 10 Israelis were injured, with five of them hospitalized." 184.153.21.19 (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
BBC: Some Maccabi fans were "looking for a fight" according to witness
editA witness reported seeing Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters on the Amsterdam metro "going up and down the carriages three or four times looking for a fight" according to the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyge1587e5t). An experienced editor might want to add this info to the article. Wikimicky1 (talk) 11:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- this article from Israel Hayom shows that the attacks against the Maccabi supporters might have been premeditated - מהתארגנות נהגי המוניות הערבים בטלגרם ועד גניבת הדרכונים: תיעוד מהאינסטגרם של אחד המחבלים | ישראל היום שי - LionFireKing404 11:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @LionFireKing404: Israeli news outlet also confirms it. GrabUp - Talk 11:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- the link I attached quotes "hang palestinian flags in the city, they [the israelis] will come like rats" as a message on a WhatsApp chat שי - LionFireKing404 11:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @LionFireKing404: Israeli news outlet also confirms it. GrabUp - Talk 11:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
The attacks have been prompted by Israeli fans yelling anti-Arab slurs, pulling down Palestinian flags, attacking an Arab taxi driver, threatening passers-by and interrupting the minute of silence for the victims of the 2024 Spanish floods with whistles before the match.
editThis might have contributed to the attacks. The article should also mention that the attacks were premediated, as WhatsApp traffic shows, first picture: https://www.geenstijl.nl/5179691/jiddische-derby Grwen (talk) 11:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- this article corroborates that too - מהתארגנות נהגי המוניות הערבים בטלגרם ועד גניבת הדרכונים: תיעוד מהאינסטגרם של אחד המחבלים | ישראל היום שי - LionFireKing404 11:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
The mayor of Amsterdam, Femke Halsema, notes in her press conference that on Telegram people were advocating to go on the hunt for jews (jodenjacht). https://www.destentor.nl/lelystad/femke-halsema-op-telegram-werd-opgeroepen-tot-jodenjacht-dat-is-een-schande~a404b6463/ Grwen (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Persecution against the Jews in Amstardam 2024
editThis should be the title of this article. Pure Islamic/Arab antisemitic barbaric behavior against the jews. Islamic nazism is rising in europe sadly. 2A06:C701:9CA2:CE00:55F7:D3F5:4BF3:7B1A (talk) 11:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Edit request: change to neutral language
editin the leading paragraph change :
but this was later denied
to:
The Israeli government has walked back on sending an IDF rescue mission to the Netherlands
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-government-walks-back-plan-to-send-idf-rescue-mission-to-the-netherlands/ 109.64.104.168 (talk) 12:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Pogram?
editThe lede says "...that some described as a pogram." Should it not be "pogrom"?31.221.247.79 (talk) 12:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Edit request
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The table on the side is fake: you compare "Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C.'s fans" and "AFC Ajax's fans and locals". But the attackers were nor AFC Ajax's fans, neither locals. They are Muslim immigrants taking a refuge in Holland. Also " 6 injured" is underestimation. 2A06:C701:70A6:E200:248A:9FE3:1593:C0AE (talk) 12:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Pogrom
editPogrom label does not belong in opening paragraph, as much as it does not belong at the opening paragraph of Huwara rampage. Also why were all the paragraphs recombined to one? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Belligerents
editThe description of "Amsterdam locals" in the infobox is a bit too vague and generic. Does someone have something more on point it can be changed to? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Someone please provide context and neutrality.
editThe way this article is currently framed is that the Israeli fans behaved poorly and then as a postscript, there happened to be a riot and they were attacked. The lede now is all about what they did wrong and next to nothing about the actual riots. Could someone please straighten this out with some context and neutrality. The Maccabi fans interrupting the minute of silence wasn't nice but that's in the lede?? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024 (2)
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The Hebrew version of the article spoke of someone celebrating the attacks on Instagram that, this have been added into reactions:
Moroccan national football team player Hakim Ziyech, a Dutch-Moroccan citizen, “celebrated” the events in his Instagram story, sharing a humiliating story of the events and mocking the victims of the attack, writing “When it’s not about women and children, they (the Israelis) run away,” but adding in his words “and in all this to liberate Palestine.” (Ynet News)