Talk:Nuttin' but Love

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus at this time, and strongly suggest clarification of the relationship between WP:COMMONNAME and WP:MOSCAPS. This has been a recurring problem lately in requested moves and requires that we get beyond local consensus and look at the root of the problem. One solution would seem to be adding an explicit statement in WP:MOSCAPS that common name does not imply common style, and that the MOS should be used to determine style (including capitalization) in article titles. The other solution would seem to be adding an explicit direction that the style guide is only to be used for titles in cases in which the most common stylization of the title is unclear, which would be closer to the way we negotiate WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The final two sections of WT:MOSCAPS are currently attempts to clarify this exact problem, but have not received replies or yet established consensus. Although a majority of the editors responding here are in favor of a move, I am unwilling to close this as a move when a majority of editors are also supporting a move the other direction in a move request started less than an hour after this one. I'm closing both requests (and Talk:Walks Like Rihanna) as no consensus and asking that discussion continue at WT:MOSCAPS. Dekimasuよ! 19:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

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Nuttin' But Love → Nuttin' but Love – "but" is a three-letter word; it is acting as a preposition. Per WP:NCCAPS (or MOS:CT if NCCAPS is something you'd rather ignore), prepositions no more than four letters should not be capitalized. Sometimes, consensus would rather capitalize "like" because sources, which are not good or great experts of English grammar, do so. In this case, "but" has no special exceptions unless sources themselves discuss the capitalization of "but". Compare this to None but the Brave and "Nothing Broken but My Heart". George Ho (talk) 06:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Support as per nom Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - indifferent to the B, but a case for adding (Heavy D & the Boyz album) to distinguish from "Nuttin' But Love" single, and other "Nothing But Love" albums In ictu oculi (talk) 16:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I undid your disambiguation; there are no other existing titles of the same name except redirects. I created Nothing but Love (disambiguation). --George Ho (talk) 04:18, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Support adding artist name disambiguation per WP:SONGDAB. Disambiguation is not about article titles, it is about topics, per WP:DAB, and minor differences in spelling and abbreviation are not sufficient disambiguators, and including the artist name is helpful to readers. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:15, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't get the difference between Stayin' Alive and this song. No one can spell "Nuttin'", and extra disambiguation can worsen matters. --George Ho (talk) 03:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see much of a difference there either. If you want to nominate Stayin' Alive to be moved to Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees song), I'll express my support. I took a look at the last RM for that page, and it did not end in a clear consensus. The person who closed the discussion said that the outcome did not preclude renominating the song article on its talk page for further discussion, but no one seems to have followed up on that discussion. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:04, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

And Lovin' You? --George Ho (talk) 05:57, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Same story, as far as I'm concerned. We've got four more "Lovin' You" articles on the dab page, plus a "Lovin' You" album redirect and a whole raft of "Loving You"s. The page view ratio of the pseudoprimary article is only about 8:1 relative to the sum of the other four, and then when you factor in the album and the minor typographical distinction, you're surely no longer in primary status. But we're getting a bit off-topic here, aren't we? —BarrelProof (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Back on topic, how is "Nuttin'" not concise precise enough? Who else outside the discussion types it? Extra precision may worsen readers' abilities to exactly type the exact title of this song. --George Ho (talk) 17:55, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Besides, anybody can click "Nothing but Love (disambiguation)" and then find this song without extra precision, right? --George Ho (talk) 19:57, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Who said anything about not being concise enough? What I'm saying is that I support moving this to Nuttin' but Love (Heavy D & the Boyz album). It can benefit from disambiguation since there are various other topics with names that are identical or excessively similar to "Nuttin' but Love". —BarrelProof (talk) 22:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Is this where humanity is heading into? You mean either "Nuttin' but Love" or "Nothing but Love"? --George Ho (talk) 23:24, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and also any "Nothin' but Love"s or "Nuthing but Love"s or "Nutting but Love"s or "No Thing but Love"s that might be lurking in the shadows. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:57, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

When you type exactly "Nuttin' but Love" (not "Nothing but Love"), what topic do you think it would have been? --George Ho (talk) 00:24, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I think I see what you mean. You may have a point there. I suppose I just tend to have a gut-level distaste for using minor variations of spelling and punctuation as disambiguators, but I must agree that I can't see any really plausible competition for the rather strange string "Nuttin' but Love". (I think 'concise' is probably not the right term for what you're describing, but I think you have a point.) —BarrelProof (talk) 01:11, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I struck that word. Anyway, I don't see this as similar to LoveGame (ugh!) and GetItRight (Miley Cyrus song). We are talking spelling, not merely spacing. --George Ho (talk) 05:46, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I struck my request for artist name disambiguation. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - The capital "B" is used widely for the song album so we imho should follow suit. –Davey2010 • (talk) 21:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It's an album. By the way, compare this case to other "but"s --George Ho (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

That'll teach me for copy-pasting!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 00:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support the change of capitalization: Wikipedia has a house style for capitalization, as expressed in MOS:CT, WP:NCCAPS, and WP:Naming conventions (music)#Capitalization. We don't need to look for what sources do on a case-by-case basis. We should follow our own guidelines, which say to use a lowercase "but" here. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:11, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 23 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Nuttin' But Love → Nuttin' but Love – The previous discussion was closed as "no consensus", despite two !supports and one !oppose. Again, "but" should not be uppercased because it's often either a preposition or conjunction in every phrase or sentence, even in titles. In this case, it's a preposition. I wouldn't be sure whether uppercasing it would make it accurate or inaccurate, especially when WP:COMMONNAMES discourages commonly-used but inaccurate titles. However, WP:NCCAPS wants "but" lowercased, so we must abide to it. Note that the exact title should be different from Nothing but Love. George Ho (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support de-capitalisation, "Wikipedia has a house style for capitalisation, as expressed in MOS:CT, WP:NCCAPS, and music capitalisation. We don't need to look for what sources do on a case-by-case basis. We should follow our own guidelines, which say to use a lowercase "but" here", per BarrelProof prev. discussion. Incidentally, it even looks better on the page.Pincrete (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as per web search on "nuttin' but love" and as per image search on "nuttin' but love" WHERE USAGE COULD NOT BE ANY CLEARER. There is no point in us unencyclopedically adopting one form of presentation just to deviate from the normal usage. These things should never become Wikipedia VS the rest of the world. See shopping: "nuttin' but love". There is "nuttin' but capitalisation". GregKaye 22:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

.... You supported it in the previous RM. Is this how you changed your mind? George Ho (talk) 00:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

George Ho I guess I changed my mind after reevaluating my personal view of the balance of argument in regard to MoS vs commonuse on this issue. GregKaye 11:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support: Wikipedia has a house style, per MOS:CT, and we should use it. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per GregKaye. Moving away from what we know to be the correct and official name as well as the more commonly used one is not a logical choice.--Yaksar (let's chat) 23:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - It seems Itunes [1] and a few others[2][3] label it as "Nuttin but Love" but most if not all others label it as "Nuttin But Love", I appreciate we policies and all that but surely we don't need to follow every word-by-word of every policy here, Anyway as I said in the above discussion "The capital "B" is used widely for the song album so we imho should follow suit". –Davey2010^Talk 23:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support per BarrelProof. Darkday (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

*Very convincing argument!, Think I may support because of your well thought out essay!. –Davey2010^Talk 18:19, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a style guide that exactly defines which words to lowercase in a title and which to capitalize. What is the point of a style guide if it's not used? If it were used invariably, then we would at least have consistency within Wikipedia. Right now, it's a mess:

• Nothing But the Truth (1941 film)
• Nothing but the Truth (2008 American film)
• None But Lucifer
• None but the Lonely Heart
• I Ain't Got Nothin' But the Blues
• Nothin' but the Blues (Johnny Winter album)
• Nothing But the Best (film)
• Nothing but the Beat

Darkday (talk) 18:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why articles having different names would qualify as a "mess". If certain songs have different capitalizations, then having them at their correct names is no different than having pages for people with both the last names McCormick vs Mccormick, or indeed having articles on both Beetles and Beatles -- not all words are always the same. Now, if these are inconsistent because some of them have been moved away from what we know is their correct name due to a silly observance of an unhelpful guideline, that's a different story, but the solution is certainly not to make more incorrect.--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:59, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Darkday - I apologize for that rather snarky reply - You see so many people put "Support per X" yet most either don't actually have a reason or it's simply because they've not read it, It's always preferred if you put "Per nom" but then expand on that, Anyway thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 14:41, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The whole point of having a house style for capitalisation is that we apply it for consistency across the project regardless of how outside sources capitalise. Jenks24 (talk) 12:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.