Talk:Ocean acidification/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Newer data from GLODAPv2

It was pointed out to me that, while the article users doi:10.1029/2004GB002247 (2004), newer data is available from its update GLODAPv2 (2015): [1], doi:10.5194/essd-8-297-2016, doi:10.5194/essd-8-325-2016. --Nemo 20:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. When I prepared some of the information for this page, this more recent dataset was in construction. However, it does not, I believe, include a "pre-industrial" estimate of DIC. At least, not yet. The latter would help with understanding the scale of anthropogenic acidification. One could use the GLODAP v1 pre-industrial DIC with the GLODAP v2 "present day" DIC, but that's not ideal. Anyway, it would be good to update to this new dataset, but it's important to recognise its current limitations. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 16:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

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Impact of Ocean Acidification on the Behaviour of Organisms

I'm a student at Imperial College London, participating in a Science Communications module. As part of this, I will be editing this article to include the impacts of ocean acidification on the behaviour of marine organisms. Jbadcock (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

‎Impact on reef fish

In the light of https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/does-ocean-acidification-alter-fish-behavior-fraud-allegations-create-sea-doubt, Distelfinck removed some of this. And then I fiddled. But actually, the entire section seemed dodgy, so I removed the rest [2] William M. Connolley (talk) 20:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Questions about the lead (July 2021)

I have a question about these sentences in the lead: Between 1751 and 1996, surface ocean pH is estimated to have decreased from approximately 8.25 to 8.14, representing an increase of almost 30% in H⁺ ion concentration in the world's oceans. Earth System Models project that, by around 2008, ocean acidity exceeded historical analogues and, in combination with other ocean biogeochemical changes, could undermine the functioning of marine ecosystems and disrupt the provision of many goods and services associated with the ocean beginning as early as 2100.. An external reviewer that I am currently working with asked two questions: "Does there need to be a reminder that the pH scale is logarithmic?". And regarding the statement about the year 2008: "I think this a typo, my reading of this article says the year is 2069". I don't have access to that article in Nature (it's behind a pay wall) so I can't check easily (edit on 14 July: "My mistake it is 2008, the figure of 2069 refers to temperature). Overall, I wonder if the lead is a good summary of the article, and if it has too many paragraphs now. - I came to this via a review of the article on ocean which uses an excerpt from this article. EMsmile (talk) 06:59, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll add this: "Note the pH scale is logarithmic so a change of one in pH unit is equivalent to a ten fold change in concentration" EMsmile (talk) 12:56, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I've reworked the lead a bit, trying to make it a better summary of the article. EMsmile (talk) 13:15, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Removed further reading list

I don't think this long and outdated further reading list is helpful for the readers. I suggest to reduce it (or to cull it down to the bare minimum of current overview publications).

• Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre (ACE CRC) (2008). Position analysis: CO₂ emissions and climate change: Ocean impacts and adaptation issues. ISSN 1835-7911. Hobart, Tasmania.
• Cicerone, R.; J. Orr; P. Brewer; et al. (2004). "The Ocean in a High CO
  ₂ World". Eos, Transactions, American Geophysical Union. 85 (37). American Geophysical Union: 351–353. Bibcode:2004EOSTr..85R.351C. doi:10.1029/2004EO370007.
• Doney, S. C. (2006). "The Dangers of Ocean Acidification". Scientific American. 294 (3): 58–65. Bibcode:2006SciAm.294c..58D. doi:10.1038/scientificamerican0306-58. ISSN 0036-8733. PMID 16502612. S2CID 29333765., (Article preview only).
• Drake, J.L.; Mass, T.; Falkowski, P. G. (2014). "The evolution and future of carbonate precipitation in marine invertebrates: Witnessing extinction or documenting resilience in the Anthropocene?". Elementa. 2: 000026. doi:10.12952/journal.elementa.000026. ISSN 2325-1026.
• Feely, R. A.; Sabine, Christopher L.; Lee, Kitack; Berelson, Will; Kleypas, Joanie; Fabry, Victoria J.; Millero, Frank J. (2004). "Impact of Anthropogenic CO
  ₂ on the CaCO
  ₃ System in the Oceans". Science. 305 (5682): 362–366. Bibcode:2004Sci...305..362F. doi:10.1126/science.1097329. PMID 15256664. S2CID 31054160.
• Hand, Eric (2015). "Acid oceans cited in Earth's worst die-off". Science. 348 (6231): 165–166. Bibcode:2015Sci...348..165H. doi:10.1126/science.348.6231.165. PMID 25859021.
• Harrould-Kolieb, E.; Savitz, J. (2008). Acid Test: Can We Save Our Oceans From CO₂?. Oceana.
• Henderson, Caspar (2006-08-05). "Ocean acidification: the other CO₂ problem". New Scientist.com news service. Archived from the original on 12 May 2008.
• Jacobson, M. Z. (2005). "Studying ocean acidification with conservative, stable numerical schemes for nonequilibrium air-ocean exchange and ocean equilibrium chemistry". Journal of Geophysical Research: Atmospheres. 110: D07302. Bibcode:2005JGRD..11007302J. doi:10.1029/2004JD005220. S2CID 3335146.
• Kim, Rakhyun E. (2012). "Is a New Multilateral Environmental Agreement on Ocean Acidification Necessary?" (PDF). Review of European Community & International Environmental Law. 21 (3): 243–258. doi:10.1111/reel.12000.x.
• Kleypas, J. A., R. A. Feely, V. J. Fabry, C. Langdon, C. L. Sabine, and L. L. Robbins. (2006). Impacts of Ocean Acidification on Coral Reefs and Other Marine Calcifiers: A Guide for Further Research, report of a workshop held 18–20 April 2005, St. Petersburg, FL, sponsored by National Science Foundation, NOAA and the U.S. Geological Survey, 88pp.
• Kolbert, E. (2006-11-20). "The Darkening Sea: Carbon emissions and the ocean". The New Yorker.
• Mathis, J.T.; Feely, R. A. (2014). "Building an integrated coastal ocean acidification monitoring network in the U.S." Elementa. 1: 000007. doi:10.12952/journal.elementa.000007. ISSN 2325-1026.
• Riebesell, U., V. J. Fabry, L. Hansson and J.-P. Gattuso (Eds.). (2010). Guide to best practices for ocean acidification research and data reporting, 260 p. Luxembourg: Publications Office of the European Union.
• Sabine, C. L.; Feely, Richard A.; Gruber, Nicolas; Key, Robert M.; Lee, Kitack; Bullister, John L.; et al. (2004). "The Oceanic Sink for Anthropogenic CO
  ₂" (PDF). Science. 305 (5682): 367–371. Bibcode:2004Sci...305..367S. doi:10.1126/science.1097403. hdl:10261/52596. PMID 15256665. S2CID 5607281.
• Stone, R. (2007). "A World Without Corals?". Science. 316 (5825): 678–681. doi:10.1126/science.316.5825.678. PMID 17478692. S2CID 128388185.

EMsmile (talk) 03:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Questions about the structure

The article starts with these three sections: 1 Carbon cycle, 2 Acidification, 3 Calcification. I find that a bit confusing. Could we change it to section headings such as Causes, Mechanisms, Effects, Impacts, Predictions and alike? For me it's unclear whether "calcification" is already an effect or the mechanism of ocean acidification. EMsmile (talk) 03:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Some useful text blocks?

I removed this text block from Effects of climate change on oceans and am wondering if it could be incorporated here or if it's already there or too simplistic? That info about temperature and pH increase could perhaps be added to to the lead? The rate at which ocean acidification will occur may be influenced by the rate of surface ocean warming, because the chemical equilibria that govern seawater pH are temperature-dependent. Greater seawater warming could lead to a smaller change in pH for a given increase in CO₂. Oceans absorb a large portion of the carbon dioxide (CO₂) from the atmosphere. Humans have drastically added to the amount of carbon dioxide (CO₂) in the atmosphere through the burning of fossil fuels and the process of deforestation. Oceans work as a sink absorbing excess anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO₂). As the oceans absorb anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO₂) it breaks down into carbonic acid, a mild acid, this neutralizes the normally alkaline ocean water. As a result, the pH in the oceans is declining (ocean acidification).EMsmile (talk) 04:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

References

New image on ocean pH value

Ocean acidification: mean seawater pH. Mean seawater pH is shown based on in-situ measurements of pH from the Aloha station.

I've just added a new image about ocean pH and am wondering if it might be a better image for the lead. I find it very clear (and somewhat scary). See on the right. And I am baffled that so few people are taking part in this talk page (see my previous comments & questions above). Ocean acidification is such an important topic. Anyone else out there with an interest to improve this article in the coming months? EMsmile (talk) 12:24, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Is ocean acidification an impact of water pollution?

For me, ocean acidification is an impact of water pollution. Therefore, I had included a reference to ocean acidification in the article on water pollution but this has been removed by another editor here. The definition of water pollution (first sentence of the article) is "Water pollution (or aquatic pollution) is the contamination of water bodies, usually as a result of human activities, in such a manner that negatively affects its legitimate uses". That makes ocean acidification either a type of marine pollution, or an impact from marine pollution, right? EMsmile (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Readability of the lead, target group

I would like to propose that we take a critical look at the lead and have a think about our target group for the lead of this article (and the main body as well). Do we want to use language that is clear and easy to understand for the general public or is our target group scientists who want to learn more about ocean acidification? I think the former is the case. We had a similar discussion on the talk page of climate change, therefore a friendly ping to User:Dtetta and User:Femkemilene. I would like the first paragraph of the lead to be a little complete mini-article, meaning it should contain a short description of the phenomenon, the causes, the impacts and the possible solution. Why cram this all into the first paragraph? Because the first paragraph is likely to be transcluded as an excerpt in other articles. Also, Alexa, Siri etc. provide the first paragraph for people's search results. It is therefore very important, and - potentially - a low hanging fruit. EMsmile (talk) 13:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

General public should be the audience of the lede. Lede starts okay, but last part of first paragraph is too difficult. Is it an effect of climate change? It's not, right? But rather both caused by CO2 emissions. Femke (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Yea, there are some pretty difficult sentences in the first paragraph of the lead. I am struggling to decide which of the details could be omitted or reworded to make it easier without losing important content. Wondering if someone can help with that. Regarding the effects of climate change I am not sure: In the article Effects of climate change on oceans it lists physical and chemical effects. Under "chemical effects" it lists ocean acidification. Would you say that is wrong? Strictly speaking it's an effect of increased CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere. But when we say "effects of climate change on oceans", we actually mean "effects of increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations on oceans"? Or "effects of greenhouse gas emissions" on oceans? I am confused now. EMsmile (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Honeybadgerdontcare.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2021 and 20 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mhogan170.

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Consider sources carefully

Articles on the topic may need to be taken with a grain of salt if they're published in glamorous academic journals: Meta-analysis reveals an extreme “decline effect” in the impacts of ocean acidification on fish behavior. Nemo 07:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Amount of CO2 absorbed?

Can someone provide up to date data and references for this statement: "An estimated 30–40% of the carbon dioxide from human activity released into the atmosphere dissolves into oceans, rivers and lakes." Comment by User:Femkemilene was "that upper range is outdated, may be as low as 25%". EMsmile (talk) 09:59, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Could adding strong bases to the ocean reverse or combat acidification?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

If humans were to add a strong base like sodium hydroxide to the ocean (which, yes, I know, is derived primarily from salt, but there are non-acidic uses of chlorine), what effect would that have on ocean pH? Could a significant addition of such substances (megatons or gigatons) even impact the atmosphere-ocean equilibrium of dissolved carbon? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Original research in image (July 2022)

An image has original research in speculation of future appearance of shells. SEWilco (talk) 22:37, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean this image?:

Shells of pteropods dissolve in increasingly acidic conditions caused by increased amounts of atmospheric CO₂.

. Please explain further what your concern is with this image? I think it tries to visualise what research has been saying fairly well, doesn't it? EMsmile (talk) 09:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I've seen another image from a research paper that shows such shells with a less smooth surface and fissures; not smaller like the ones in this image so I guess this could be problematic. Should the image be deleted? Pinging also User:Elizajans who created the image. EMsmile (talk) 09:57, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I have not found research which shows stunted shells which resemble what is in this image. Also be careful when reviewing photos, as at least one well-known set cites an article which does not include those photos, and the method of creating the photos is not stated. SEWilco (talk) 14:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi SEWilco: I've removed the image now. EMsmile (talk) 21:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to convert to long reference style

I am proposing to convert the references style in this article to long references. Currently it uses a mixture: most are in the long ref style but then there are 6 sources in the short ref style. It would be fairly easy to change it over and thus make it consistent (and easier for new editors who want to add new references). Does anyone object? EMsmile (talk) 21:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks like there are no objections so I am putting this task on my to-do list now. EMsmile (talk) 13:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I've completed this change now. This article now only uses the long ref style. EMsmile (talk) 22:05, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned image source

A normally-protective shell made thin, fragile and transparent by acidification

Incidentally, the adjoining image, of a pteropod, is claimed to be a victim of acidification but the image is orphaned. The image's source seems to involve a Caribbean study which is difficult to locate, but has also been used in Arctic and Pacific papers without explanation of its acidification process. Technically, that image has a Flickr source but the source's source has vanished. SEWilco (talk) 14:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi SEWilco, do you mean this image (to the right)? What is your suggestion here, should we remove it? I find the image not vey clear - I don't really know what I am looking at. Do you have suggestions for better images? EMsmile (talk) 00:15, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

What is the scientific term for organisms that rely on calcium carbonate shells and skeletons?

We've used the term "organisms that rely on calcium carbonate shells and skeletons, like mollusks, oysters and corals" in the lead. I am wondering if there is a scientific term for them all together? Is it perhaps Crustacean? EMsmile (talk) 08:36, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Any organism that builds a shell out of calcium carbonate is called a calcifier. Crustaceans are a more specific taxon. 67.165.176.3 (talk) 20:23, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, that's helpful! I found we didn't have a Wikipedia article called calcifier or calcifying organism yet. I think the closest we have is this one: Marine biogenic calcification. Therefore, I have just created a redirect from both of the other terms to Marine biogenic calcification. Is it possible that they are also known under another term? EMsmile (talk) 13:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't think they would be known under another term so redirecting to marine biogenic calcification is fine for the time being. 67.165.176.3 (talk) 16:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments about first paragraph in the lead

I feel that the first paragraph of the lead needs to be clearer on the human-made causes of ocean acidification. Many readers won't read further than the first paragraph of the lead. Google results bring up the first paragraph of the lead in a preview box. Alexa and Siri read the first paragraphs out aloud. The recent changes by User:Dtetta had omitted the human part from the lead; I've added it back in by moving the sentences about climate change mitigation from the 4th paragraph to the first. But the original version had even more info on the human caused CO2 emissions in the lead. Compare with the 20 September version: Ocean acidification is the ongoing decrease in the pH value of the Earth's oceans, caused by the uptake of carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere. Modern ocean acidification is caused by the burning of fossil fuels. As the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere increases, the amount of carbon dioxide absorbed by the ocean also increases.. I think the new version of the lead is nice and builds up the argument slowly. However, given my concern about the first paragraph being super important I think it needs a little bit of reordering. In my opinion, the first paragraph needs to be a bit like a mini summary of the entire article. It is the most important paragraph of the lead. EMsmile (talk) 08:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

P.S. do we need to distinguish between "pre human" ocean acidification and "modern" ocean acidification? The article is mostly about "modern ocean acidification", right? The 20 September version used the term "modern" but this is perhaps not a scientific term either. Better: human-induced ocean acidification? EMsmile (talk) 08:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

From WP:Lead "The first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific. It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it. If appropriate, it should give the location and time. It should also establish the boundaries of the topic; for example, the lead for the article List of environmental issues succinctly states that the list covers 'harmful aspects of human activity on the biophysical environment'". IMO this is not the same as a mini-summary of the entire article. But I will look at ways of having it more closely reflect the "human caused" language of the earlier version. Dtetta (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, not a mini summary but the human-caused aspects are definitely key here and would fit the description "It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it." - This journal paper "The Impacts of Ocean Acidification on Marine Ecosystems and Reliant Human Communities" here does a really nice job in introducing the topic of OA together with the human causes in their abstract. I think we should do it similarly in the lead of this article. I came across this journal paper while working on effects of climate change on oceans. It's open access and under a compatible licence which makes it very convenient to utilise content or even exact sentences from it. EMsmile (talk) 11:04, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

This is the first paragraph in the introduction of that paper which I was referring to on 18 October: Present-day (2020) atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) levels of more than 410 ppm are nearly 50% higher than preindustrial concentrations, and the current elevated levels and rapid growth rates are unprecedented in the past 55 million years of the geological record (1). The source for this excess CO2 is clearly established as human driven, reflecting a mix of anthropogenic fossil fuel, industrial, and land-use/land-change emissions (2). The concept that the ocean acts as a major sink for anthropogenic CO2 has been present in the scientific literature since at least the late 1950s, and multiple lines of evidence, including direct observations of increasing dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) inventories (3), support the finding that the ocean takes up roughly a quarter of total anthropogenic CO2 emissions. It is also well understood that the additional CO2 in the ocean results in a wholesale shift in seawater acid-base chemistry toward more acidic, lower pH conditions and lower saturation states for carbonate minerals used in many marine organism shells and skeletons (4). Extensive observational systems are now in place or being built for monitoring seawater CO2 chemistry and acidification for both the global open ocean and some coastal systems (5, 6). EMsmile (talk) 19:26, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I've changed the first paragraph of the lead now so that it gives a fuller picture and explains everything briefly, especially the root cause of this problem. EMsmile (talk) 10:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

No need to mention authors explicitly

I think we should take out the explicit mention of authors or authoring organisations. Just state the facts and put the reference at the end but there is usually not need to say who authored the study. Even saying "a study found that" is a bit superfluous in many cases. Examples:

• "The Royal Society published a comprehensive overview of ocean acidification, and its potential consequences, in June 2005"
• The reports "Ocean Acidification Summary for Policymakers 2013" and the IPCC approved "Special Report on the Ocean and Cryosphere in a Changing Climate" from 2019 describe research findings and possible impacts.
• A study conducted by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in January 2018 showed that...
• A 2010 study from Stony Brook University suggested that
• A study in 2008 examining a sediment core from the North Atlantic found that EMsmile (talk) 21:52, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Further comments:

• I also found this sentence too long: Earth's most severe known extinction event, emphasizing that the 2 °C maximum temperature increase agreed upon by governments reflects too small a cut in emissions to prevent "dramatic impacts" on the world's oceans, with lead author Jean-Pierre Gattuso remarking that "The ocean has been minimally considered at previous climate negotiations. Our study provides compelling arguments for a radical change at the UN conference (in Paris) on climate change"."
• And I wonder if the section on "Impacts on oceanic calcifying organisms" is overly detailed in places and ought to be condensed / some content be moved to sub-articles? (if a sub-article exists?) Some of it reads more like an academic literature review than an encyclopedic description for lay persons. EMsmile (talk) 21:52, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I've made all those changes now that I mentioned above. EMsmile (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Review by experts from the Global Ocean Acidification Observing Network (GOA-ON) (August 2022)

Hi, a little while ago, I contacted some subject matter experts from the Global Ocean Acidification Observing Network (GOA-ON) and invited them to review this article. They've sent me their comments in a marked up Google doc. Over the course of the next weeks, I'll implement their changes in the Wikipedia article (most of this work will happen only in September as I have a holiday coming up). Here is their overall statement: "The reviewers found that the article, while it was thorough to start, needed updates in order to reflect present scientific agreement and publications, particularly in the former "Geoengineering" section, now "Climate Intervention Section". In particular, a number of graphics were outdated and needed to be replaced with newer publications. The reviewers also removed redundancies that were prevalent in the document." (the names of the reviewers: Gabby Kitch, Libby Jewett, Richard Feely, Abed Hassoun, Katherina Schoo). EMsmile (talk) 13:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I asked them specifically about the section on "climate intervention" and here is their answer: "Climate intervention techniques and ocean CDR currently have a lot of momentum behind them and we would be remiss to not discuss them as a means to mitigate OA. The recent National Academies report among others have brought further attention to the field. It is important we discuss all ocean CDR techniques that can potentially mitigate OA based on current research." EMsmile (talk) 13:50, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

They also told me: "NOAA is not endorsing ocean CDR in any way. NOAA is rather the agency that monitors carbon in the atmosphere and the oceans and ocean CDR would impact those carbon reservoirs." and "The recent National Academies report among others have brought further attention to the field. In addition, NOAA OAP in the last fiscal year funded research on ocean alkalinity enhancement and continues to develop funding opportunities for ocean CDR work. NOAA is currently working on releasing their own ocean CDR strategy. In addition, in the US and internationally ocean CDR has been supported by governments through introduced legislation and funding." EMsmile (talk) 20:45, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Today I will incorporate the text edits for the lead that Gabby Kitch (NOAA) submitted. One paragraph at a time. Dtetta (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, great stuff. I really like how you've improved the readability for the lead, after inserting the changes by the expert. EMsmile (talk) 08:34, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

In the interest of WP:COI disclosure guidelines, I want to give notice that I am being paid to edit this article as part of a communication project regarding SDGs 6, 13 and 14. Dtetta (talk) 14:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

House keeping edit: this process of incorporating the reviewers' comments is now mostly completed (done by User:Dtetta). Some work remains to be done on the images and also to improve readability of the article. EMsmile (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Update: All the edits by the reviewers have now been incorporated. I am still in the process of clarifying some remaining questions around the CDR section and the images. And there is still a need to make the article easier to understand for lay persons. If anyone is good at making such readability improvements, please go ahead. E.g. convert quotes from the IPCC reports into flowing prose if you can. EMsmile (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Reports from GOES Foundation

There's a lot of more recent stuff from the GOES Foundation. There are at least three different threats: ocean acidification, microplastics and sun-tan oil chemicals. See also their submission to COP26. (At least we don’t need to worry about climate change!) [3]https://www.goesfoundation.com/reports/ I leave it to somebody who knows more about this than I do to incorporate this. BioImages2000 (talk) 15:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

References about the geologic past

Hi User:Anteosaurus magnificus, I've just reverted your addition of two more refs about the situation in the geologic past here. I am no expert on this topic but it seemed to me that these refs were rather old (2004 and 2014) and that they were primary sources and that they were no better than the refs already in place. You had also added other references to the same article a few days ago which I reverted. I had also reverted your addition of references in the article effects of climate change on oceans here. What is your reasoning for adding those particular references given the following policies: WP:overcite, WP:RS and WP:PST? EMsmile (talk) 11:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I try to include more than one citation for specific scientific claims that aren't common knowledge and open to interpretation, such as about ocean acidification contributing to given mass extinctions, especially since the degree of contribution of ocean acidification to any of those events is debated. The WP:overcite guidelines state that 1-3 references are acceptable, and I didn't exceed that amount for any of those claims about acidification helping cause that specific extinction event.

As far as primary sources, while I'm aware they should be avoided in most subjects on Wikipaedia, in the realm of science, they're usually better than secondary source summaries of peer-reviewed research, which tend to be vaguer and less detailed, and the WP:reliable sources page lists them at the top of the list for reliable sources. Most references on the pages for end-Guadalupian, end-Permian, end-Triassic, and Cretaceous-Palaeogene extinction events are peer-reviewed studies. Anteosaurus magnificus (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

thanks for your reply. They still seem to be quite arbitrary to me. One from 2004 and one from 2014. Both are behind paywalls so our readers can only read the abstract. Looking at the abstracts I find it very hard to understand what is going on. If you want to help our readers why not look for additional sources that are not behind a paywall and that are easier to understand. I find that review papers are often easier to understand than primary sources. You could also look at the IPCC report AR 6 WG I to see what sources they use there. As an aside, I am currently talking to Gabby Kitch about this. She is from NOAA and a paleo-OA expert and said she can help review this section. She already helped with an earlier review process for this article so I look forward to getting more inputs from here on this. EMsmile (talk) 14:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Possible content moved from sea

This text block was at sea. I think we already have the same content here but in case any of the wordings or refs are better and can be integrated, I am putting it here:

"One important element for the formation of skeletal material in marine animals is calcium, but calcium carbonate becomes more soluble with pressure, so carbonate shells and skeletons dissolve below its compensation depth. Calcium carbonate also becomes more soluble at lower pH, so ocean acidification is likely to have profound effects on marine organisms with calcareous shells, such as oysters, clams, sea urchins, and corals, because their ability to form shells will be reduced, and the carbonate compensation depth will rise closer to the sea surface. Affected planktonic organisms will include the snail-like molluscs known as pteropods, and single-celled algae called coccolithophorids and foraminifera. All of these are important parts of the food chain and a diminution in their numbers will have significant consequences. In tropical regions, corals are likely to be severely affected as it becomes more difficult to build their calcium carbonate skeletons, in turn adversely impacting other reef dwellers." EMsmile (talk) 09:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

References

EMsmile (talk) 09:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)