Talk:Owain Arwel Hughes

Massed male-voice choir performance: Gwahoddiad

The citation for the massed male-voice choir performance is problematic in several ways. The version added by user:Richard David Ramsey#talk was:

Hughes has the distinction, as of 2014, of having led the world's largest male choir, in 1993, singing GWAHODDIAD.

Hartsough, Louis (1872). [<link removed per WP:CV> "World's largest ever male choir sing GWAHODDIAD"]. Songs of Praise. British Broadcasting Corporation. Retrieved 2014-06-09. {{cite news}}: Check |url= value (help) Translated by Ieaen Gwyllt (John Roberts). In English GWAHODDIAD (Welsh for "Invitation") is known by its popular title "I Am Coming, Lord" (also the first words of the refrain). "I hear Thy welcome voice" is the first line of verse 1. The title in Welsh is "Arglwydd Dyma Fi" (first line "Mi gwynaf dyner lais").

I am concerned about:

1. The Youtube posting may well be in violation of the BBC's copyright. Because of this there could be an problem with linking to it from Wikipedia.
2. If the Youtube posting is a copyright violation then and Youtube are likely to remove it.
3. Notes posted on Youtube by an individual apparently unconnected to the original recording are not a reliable source.
4. Louis Hartsough was the composer the hymn tune. This is not made clear.
5. 1872 was the date of composition of the hymn tune. This is not made clear
6. Why is GWAHODDIAD capitalised? This is not the usual Wikipedia style.
7. The translated phrases are confusingly arranged.
8. As I understand it, Gwahoddiad is the name of the hymn tune. In Wales the tune name is often used as the hymn title. The first line is Welsh may be Arglwydd Dyma Fi, but is this the title?
9. There is already an article on this hymn, with translations: see Gwahoddiad, so these details are not needed here.
10. cite news is an inappropriate template for the citing a performance and/or a video clip.

I plan to address some of these issues by changing the text and citation to:

Hughes has the distinction, as of 2014, of having led the world's largest male choir, in 1993, singing the Welsh hymn Gwahoddiad (also known as Arglwydd Dyma Fi).

[<link removed per WP:CV> "World's Largest Ever Male Choir sing Gwahoddiad"]. Youtube. Retrieved 10 June 2014. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help) Video extract from BBC television programme Songs of Praise (1993)

However this does not address my concerns about linking to a Youtube clip of dubious copyright status, or the lack of a reliable source.

The same material has been added to Gwahoddiad where the same concerns apply. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I have asked about the copyright issue here: wikipedia:help desk#Links to an external site with possible copyright violation. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The response to my question at wikipedia:help desk#Links to an external site with possible copyright violation indicates to me that this link should be removed based on the WP:ELNEVER guideline. I will revert the edit. However, Hughes's conducting of this performance could be restored if a reliable reference is cited. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:46, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Verbcatcher - my personal take on that (from recent direct and personal experience with YouTube):

Re: 1. "The Youtube posting may well be in violation of the BBC's copyright. Because of this there could be an problem with linking to it from Wikipedia." and

Re: 2. "If the Youtube posting is a copyright violation then and Youtube are likely to remove it."

- (2) It's now been up there since 3 Feb 2011, i.e. over three years. YouTube rules have changed - they will remove only if the copyright holder complains. Apparently the BBC are not bothered. And why should they be, for a low-quality four minute extract - it's a very useful (and free) advert fir the BBC DVD.

- (1) - see (2) above. If they do remove it, so what? It'll just be a deadlink. Wikipedia won't be sued by the BBC as a result. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

- (3) Here's a nice alternative for Gwahoddiad that's 41 years old and should not upset EMI in the least. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not an issue of upsetting the BBC or EMI, or of the likelihood of them suing. Wikipedia have a policy of not linking to webpages that breach copyright: see WP:ELNEVER. 41 years old is still in copyright. I would argue for a reduction in copyright durations, but if its unauthorised and in copyright then we can't link to it. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. That's the policy. The words "nose", "spite", "face" and "cut" spring to mind. But there we are. Too bad, eh? YouTube will never be tempted to adopt CC BY-SA 3.0 License, of course because, regardless of copyright holders, they have a process called "monetisation" whereby both they and account holders can earn money, and they can also sell adverts and allow links to download purchase sites. In fact, some copyright holders are very keen to allow YouTube videos with links to purchase sites. But you can be proud you're doing your bit to keep Wikipedia pure. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

_____

All that is generally fine, and I mostly agree with you. So please insert the changes.

On a particular question you raise, there are three names frequently associated with hymns:

The first line ("I hear the savior say")

The popular title ("I Am Coming, Lord")

The tune name (GWAHODDIAD or, in many American hymnals, WELCOME VOICE)

Compare

"O Lord my God" (first line)

"How Great Thou Art" (popular title)

O STORE GUD (tune name, based on the first line in Swedish)

The challenge is that British hymnals usually have nothing about the popular title (if you want to find "How Great Thou Art," you have to know to look for "O Lord my God" or to know the tune name!). Occasionally the popular title is referenced as the tune name, although not in the case of GWAHODDIAD. American hymnals frequently if not usually emphasize the popular title but also include the first line in the index. Hymn tunes nowadays are customarily listed in a separate index in both British and American hymnals. The names of hymn tunes are by convention displayed in ALL CAPS (BLOCK CAPITALS), at least on the page with the score, much as book titles are underlined, practices which preclude their confusion with placenames etc. Take a look at almost any American hymnal to see how the three are treated and displayed.

Rammer (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Welsh-speaking people

The category "Welsh-speaking people" does not include the subcategory "Welsh conductors (music)." If the listing of both categories is an issue even though they are not repetitive, perhaps Owain Arwel Hughes should be put into category "Welsh-language television presenters," which is a subcategory of "Welsh-speaking people," and concomitantly listed just once. Rammer (talk) 20:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

You have added Category:Welsh-speaking people but this is not mentioned in the article, and no citation is provided. If there is evidence of this, e.g. presenting TV programmes in Welsh, then this should be mentioned in the article with a citation. If not then the category should be removed. Category:Welsh conductors (music) is not a sub-category of Category:Welsh-speaking people because not all Welsh conductors speak Welsh. Also, you have sorted the categories alphabetically, but Wikipedia:Categorization#Articles does not specify this. I usually order categories thematically. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

This review of his autobiography confirms that Arwel Hughes speaks Welsh. There is no obvious way to cite a source for a category. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:17, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Cape (Town) Philharmonic Orchestra

It seems that OAH is no longer Principal Guest Conductor of the Cape Philharmonic Orchestra. This is not mentioned as a current appointment on the orchestra's website and he is is not conducting any of the forthcoming concerts listed there. He was mentioned as Principal Guest Conductor in back copies of their newsletter,[1] [2] but the dates of this appointment are unclear. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:09, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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