Talk:PP+Cs

Spanish nationalism

@Aihotz: This edit is a fallacy in itself; you are only making unsourced statements and appealing to some sort of "negationism" (?). Firstly, "Spanish nationalism" is not described as an ideology and you have brought no sources to back up such a claim. On the Spanish wiki itself, three comments: (1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source. You can't justify that "Spanish nationalism" is an ideology just because you saw it in another wiki project. This is not allowed in Wikipedia; (2) You must bring a source that claims that PP+Cs is a Spanish nationalist party ideologically. Just because "you" think that Spanish nationalism is a main ideological component of the coalition does not make it so. As you said, this is an encyclopedia. It is based on sourced facts, not unsourced opinions. Otherwise, this is just POV-pushed synthesis; and (3) The actual article for PP+Cs in the Spanish wiki does not even describe it as Spanish nationalist. Your own argument turns against you here, because if we were to use the Spanish wiki as reference, then they are actually in favour of not using this label.

You are very wrong here and I expect you to either back up your claims with something more than your sole opinion or otherwise revert your own edits. Impru20^talk 19:45, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Please do not remain obstinate in a fallacy. Spanish nationalism is an ideology like other nationalisms. It is tautology. I don´t rely on Wikipedia itself, but on an author, Núñez Seixas, whom I am fortunate enough to know and is a recognized expert in the Academy in the study of nationalism. He poses a kind of test to clarify whether a political party is Spanish nationalist or not (see Núñez Seixas, Xosé M. (2018). Suspiros de España. Spanish Nationalism, 1808-2018. 15-16 pp).

If we passed that test to the PP+Cs coalition, what do you think the result would be?. I don’t mind helping you do that and clearing up any doubts you have about it. As long as you don´t provide any reference to deny that this coalition adheres to the aforementioned ideology, I will keep as many times as necessary that they do; exactly as is done with "conservatism" and "liberalism" which are the partial ideological self-definitions of the formations that make up the coalition. Aihotz (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

whom I am fortunate enough to know Wow. So, you are basing your edits on a single author who you claim to know? And one who you keep promoting in your edits and replies? Do you know that this could raise suspicions about a conflict of interest, right? You seem to be strongly promoting this single author's opinion on the issue of "Spanish nationalism" and use him as the only source for your edits. Nonetheless, even this is pointless: you are still not bringing any source that claims that PP+Cs has a "Spanish nationalist" ideology. This is an encyclopedia and you are being anything but rigurous here.

As long as you don´t provide any reference to deny that this coalition adheres to the aforementioned ideology It is you who must prove that the coalition adheres to the ideology, not the other way around. If you don't do it, and in light of the aforementioned COI issue, I may have to request outside intervention to deal with this worrying issue. Impru20^talk 20:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

What begins to be worrying and incompressible is your attitude. In addition to not citing any author and / or reference that refutes my statement, you persist in a simplistic and fallacious approach that you still cannot demonstrate ("Spanish nationalism is not an ideology"), you make hints that I am promoting someone and previously you accuse me of making surreptitious edits. It seems to me that you lack arguments and you have to cling to the personal attack and ask for help from third parties. Very uplifting and really worrying.

Still I reiterate my previous offer. When desired, we pass the aforementioned test to this coalition. I am open to other types of constructive proposals to settle this question Aihotz (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

To clarify things:

1) This author you do personally know, is your friend or whatever does not claim that "Spanish nationalism" is an ideology. Possible COI issues aside, he actually says this:

la autodefinición de nacionalista español no acostumbra a ser reconocida por quienes defienden y asumen que España es una nación, independientemente de su ubicación en el espectro político partidario, a derecha o a izquierda», lo que plantea un problema a la hora de determinar si un partido, movimiento o ideología es nacionalista español, lo que no suele ocurrir entre los partidos y movimientos de los nacionalismos sin Estado —en el caso español los llamados nacionalismos periféricos— que se declaran abiertamente nacionalistas.

He acknowledges that "Spanish nationalism" is a label that can be attributed to parties, movements or ideologies. Thus, he is acknowledging that "Spanish nationalism" is not an ideology by itself. An ideology can be Spanish nationalist, or a party can be (in a non-ideological way) Spanish nationalist, but Núñez Seixas is not describing Spanish nationalism as an ideology. You are reaching a conclusion not explicitly stated in the source, so in here you are wrong.

2) I have yet to see any source from you claiming that PP+Cs is ideologically "Spanish nationalist". You have not done so, so there is nothing to "refute". Further, I should note that the PP+Cs coalition was created in early 2020, and the work you mention dates from 2018.

When desired, we pass the aforementioned test to this coalition. Which "test"? What? What you require us to do is outright original research!

I am open to other types of constructive proposals to settle this question Easy, source that the PP+Cs coalition has Spanish nationalism as an ideology. The core policies of Wikipedia's content are Neutral point of view, Verifiability and No original research. As of currently, you are POV-pushing a label without a source to back it up and under your own assumptions and re-interpretations of other sources. Unless you can actually source your claims, this content will be eventually deleted. Impru20^talk 21:26, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

I’m telling you seriously and without acrimony: you have trouble understanding what "my friend" Núñez Seixas says? I assumed you had a certain level when I saw the "medals" displayed on your user page. Maybe I was wrong and I overestimated you. I get the impression that you either don’t want to or you can’t understand the approach of the author that I "promote". I’d rather think it’s the first.

You still do not propose any alternative, no author, no reference to deny the possible nationalist character of this coalition. I'm done for today. But in the next days and weeks I will return loaded with more authors and citations. I hope you do the same if you want to defend your position. Consider it a challenge. Aihotz (talk) 21:51, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so from your first line I assume you can't provide any source to back up either of your claims, and instead resort to personal comments on myself. I am not going to enter that. I have quoted the exact words of your "preferred" author, so this is crystal clear and not subject to manipulation. I will limit this reply to ask you again to provide sources to back up your claims, because otherwise it is fairly obvious that this is an outright violation of WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR, and will be treated as such.

You still do not propose any alternative, no author, no reference to deny the possible nationalist character of this coalition. As per WP:UNSOURCED, The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. It is you who have added "Spanish nationalism" as an ideology of this coalition and who keep restoring it, so the burden is on you to provide sources supporting such a claim. Note that this is a core Wikipedia policy. Impru20^talk 22:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

In the last part I agree with you. You are right when you say that it is I who must prove it. On the other hand, and to conclude for today a concise question: do you consider that being a Spanish nationalist is something negative per se, hence your determination to deny the possible nationalist character of this coalition? Aihotz (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You agree with me but you still fail to provide any source to support your claim. On your question, it is a blatant disregard of the assume good faith policy, so I will do as if you had never made it. Impru20^talk 22:32, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Very legalistic and compliant. Good. I hope that just as you do everything you say, you will have the resources to refute what I will be adding shortly to defend my statement. See you around. Ciao. Aihotz (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Weird reply, to say the least. Impru20^talk 22:54, 15 May 2020 (UTC)