Talk:Pachycephalosaurus

Which Is it?

The article currently has the following statement near the end:

Diet

Scientists do not yet know what these dinosaurs ate. Having very small, ridged teeth they could not have chewed tough, fibrous plants as effectively as other dinosaurs of the same period. It is assumed that pachycephalosaurs lived on a mixed diet of leaves, seeds, fruit and insects. The sharp, serrated teeth would have been very effective for shredding plants.

I hate to find contradictions on Wikipedia as it tends to hurt the credibility, however I'm no dinosaur or dental expert. So.....can we get a ruling on if they're teeth were "not as effective" or "very effective"? Thanks.

75.59.178.61 23:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to look it up, but it's not a *complete* contradiction. The teeth would not have been great for fibrous stuff, but would have cut and sliced well (think green iguanas). J. Spencer 02:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As written, it is contradictory. "Having very small, ridged teeth they could not have chewed tough, fibrous plants as effectively as other dinosaurs" ... "The sharp, serrated teeth would have been very effective for shredding plants." You can't shred plant matter effectively with small ridged teeth that don't effectively chew tough, fibrous plants. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Shredding is not the same as chewing, which grinds food. You can't grind food very well with little triangular thingies, but you can cut it. J. Spencer 13:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I totaly agree, because of the shape of its teeth.--Dinonerd4488 (talk) 19:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Dead link

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• http://www.jpinstitute.com/dinopedia/images/dc_card_pachy3_big.jpg
  • In Pachycephalosaurus on Mon Jul 17 14:50:07 2006, Socket Error: (110, 'Connection timed out')
  • In Pachycephalosaurus on Thu Jul 27 00:38:26 2006, Socket Error: (110, 'Connection timed out')

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maru (talk) contribs 04:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Status of Tylosteus

Sullivan (2006) demonstrated that Tylosteus ornatus Leidy, 1872 is not referrable to Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis and is very similar to Dracorex hogwartsia. Therefore, the ICZN will be asked to resurrect Tylosteus from the list of nomina oblita and nomina rejecta.

Sullivan, R.M., 2006. A taxonomic review of the Pachycephalosauridae (Dinosauria: Ornithischia). New Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science Bulletin 35: 347-365. 72.194.116.63 16:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC) Vahe Demirjian 09.51 15 April 2007

Synonyms in taxobox

This may be largely semantic, but the use of specific synonyms in the taxobox for a genus-level article doesn't jibe with the way we've been doing it everywhere else. I think the logic here is that on the Pachycephalosaurus, only synonyms at the genus level should be listed. If the article were titled Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis (with the appropriate species-level taxobox that uses binomial fields instead of species subdivisions), the specific synonyms would be included. In other articles where a type or other species have synonyms, this is only discussed in the classification section. Dinoguy2 08:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

ok. I just figured since the genus was monotypic, the article was just as much about P. wyomingensis as it was about Pachycephalosaurus, so the synonyms belonged in the taxobox. Of course, you're right: we haven't been doing that for any of the others, and obviously there's a problem with stating that a species is synonymous with a genus. I'll revert self. BTW, since you're here, other ideas for improvement on this article are welcome... Firsfron of Ronchester 09:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Pachycephalosaurus new collaboration for dec 07 with 5 votes

Nominated 16th May, 2007;

Support:

1. Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
2. M&NCenarius 08:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
3. ArthurWeasley 20:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
4. Qwo 00:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
5. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments:

• With this I have tried to nominate another unrepresented group, so to give people an idea of what we haven't done yet. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
• Surely, there are many things to say about Pachy. ArthurWeasley 20:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• I've expanded and added images to practically every pachycephalosaurid article, but there is certainly a great amount of work remaining to be done. Help would be much appreciated. Qwo 00:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

---

GA

I've done a few dino articles, so I think I'll take a look at this. I gave it a cleanup while I was reading it. I don't think that this is the best dinosaur GA put up by the dedicated Dino group, and I think that it warrants a few fixes before attaining GA status.

• Maybe I'm being too much of a traditionalist, but I don't see the paleoecology section that pretty much every other dino article seems to have. I think it would be best to include one, but it's not a big problem.
• The skull ramming section is lacking citations. I think it would also be best to mention the headbutting in the lead as well, since it's an aspect that holds the general public's imagination.
• In the description section, who says that the dinosaur might have had long legs, short forelimbs, and ossified tendons?
• Please cite "more related to ceratopsians than ornithopods".
• Are there any depictions in popular culture of Pachycephalosaurus, seeing as they are the most well-known species in their clade.

Overall, I think that a few expansions and citations are needed to get this up to GA status. Therefore, I'm placing this on hold for now. bibliomaniac15 00:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the review and copyedit, Bibliomaniac. I am receptive to your suggestions and ideas, and am absolutely thrilled to be working with you again. :) Thanks so much for picking up the dinosaur review flag.

The popular culture section of this article was jettisoned at one point in 2007 because it was so anemic; I can scrape something together if you'd like. Of our GAs, Amphicoelias, Ankylosaurus, Abelisauridae, Dromaeosauridae, Gryposaurus, Heterodontosauridae, Scelidosaurus, and Tyrannosauroidea have no paleoecology section. The rest of the GAs do. A few, like Othnielosaurus have a combined paleobiology and paleoecology section.

I will add the appropriate citations tonight. The head-butting bit is in Carpenter at least, so that's an easy reference to add in. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, I've done a bit of work, based on your observations, Bibliomaniac. I will continue to work on this tomorrow afternoon. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems better. If the popular culture was removed before, then it's all right, no need to add it. The Paleoecology stuff isn't really needed anyway. The citations look good, and although I'd still like to see where the "ossified tendons" came from, I see nothing keeping it from GA anymore. bibliomaniac15 00:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Only notable cultural reference to Pachy I can think of is the appearance in The Lost World: Jurassic Park. FunkMonk (talk) 02:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the check-back, Bibliomaniac. We sure appreciate your diligence. I know that you passed the article, but I did add a bit more to the lead, added the tendon ref, and am certainly willing to add whatever else is required/desired. A pop culture section could be made. I usually take a look at what links here to see what appearances might be suitable. In this case, it's (as FunkMonk indicates) mostly movie appearances, probably where Pachy appears in the background of a scene. Some asteroids are named after popular dinosaurs, but Pachy isn't one of them. I'm definitely open to further suggestions, however, and we could certainly start a pop culture section. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The Pachy Zord in Power Rangers Dino Charge.65.255.88.233 (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Is this Pachycephalosaurus?

The description of this[1] image says "Sketch of a pachycephalosaur of uncertain systematical position and still (2003) not formally described. Its remains were found in the "Sandy Quarry" of the Hell Creek Formation, near Buffalo, South Dakota (USA). Initially reconstructed as Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis by Michael Triebold later many attendees of an international symposium referred the remains to Stygimoloch spinifer because of the prominent spikes on the back of the skull. ". Has it been clarified what it is in the meantime? FunkMonk (talk) 07:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

If that is "Sandy", it is Stygimoloch (which may or may not turn out to be a juvenile Pachycephalosaurus). Perhaps a section dedicated to the "Sandy" skeleton is in order? Firsfron of Ronchester 07:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Could perhaps be mentioned if it is notable? That drawing is the basis of this scale diagram, by the way, so maybe Dinoguy knows: [2] And this skeleton for example, seems very similar to the drawing, with the spikes and stuff: [3] FunkMonk (talk) 02:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The "Sandy" skeleton is certainly notable, as a partially complete skeleton of a pachycephalosaur. I'm not sure if it belongs in this article or in Stygimoloch. Perhaps mention could be made in both. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The drawing is Sandy. I didn't know it had been published and referred to a genus though. The scale is based on the drawing but scaled to larger pachy specimens, so it can stay here if the drawing moves. Dinoguy2 (talk) 12:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Pachycephalosaurus = Stygimoloch = Dracorex

Recently Horner found Stygimoloch and Dracorex being junior synonyms of Pachycephalosaurus Please, read this http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091031002314.htm This is the scientific paper http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007626 This thing finally came out, i REALLY suggest of merging Stygymoloch and Dracorex articles in Pachycephalosaurus article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.33.240.155 (talk) 11:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

• It's already mentioned in all the affected articles. Not all scientists agree with the conclusion, so the articles should remain separate. FunkMonk (talk) 11:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

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Stygimoloch and Dracorex: Junior synonymy

For some reason it seems to be kind of grey here, but Stygimoloch and Dracorex are recognized as junior synonyms of P. wyomingensis in the literature now. Every recent study since 2009 (at least 5 that I know of) concerning their status has supported their placement in P. wyomingensis, and no rebuttals of papers to the contrary have been published (to my knowledge, at least non ethat I can find or are found here). The Paleobiology Database does not recognize them as valid species, and that, coupled with the fact that studies have supported their synonymy for almost a decade without rebuttal seems reason enough to sink Dracorex and Stygimoloch on Wikipedia.

There's also the fact that keeping the Wikipedia articles for Stygimoloch and Dracorex up is spreading misinformation, and is probably the reason that Stygimoloch got a part in Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom this year. If paleontology recognizes them as invalid, but they are presented as potentially valid here, then these pages are supporting misinformation. For people having seen JW: Fallen Kingdom to search for Stygimoloch and find it has a page and a description is only going to worsen the problem.

For reference: Studies showing synonymy between Dracorex, Stygimoloch, and Pachycephalosaurus

Extreme cranial ontogeny in the Upper Cretaceous dinosaur Pachycephalosaurus http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007626

Early Ontogeny of Pachycephalosaurine Squamosals as Revealed by Juvenile Specimens from the Hell Creek Formation, Eastern Montana https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/20491090.pdf?casa_token=YjatvQe2YagAAAAA:59h470ShUetdvAXGKETffEZdD6v-98Y4RHx9d9oq0Oghjv4XQtI6C8YziigNHz9UIGghvHQacP-4vrStW2qAVa6ORiybnYWchuSrDqGL9Pbozqxbbw

Texacephale langstoni, a new genus of pachycephalosaurid (Dinosauria: Ornithischia) from the upper Campanian Aguja Formation, southern Texas, USA https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/30223488/longrich-sankey-texacephale-10.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1529022336&Signature=YQuqNcQENks8TVaOmRwUPMTASeU%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3Di_Texacephale_langstoni_i_a_new_genus_o.pdf

Squamosal Ontogeny and Variation in the Pachycephalosaurian Dinosaur Stegoceras validum Lambe, 1902, from the Dinosaur Park Formation, Alberta https://www.jstor.org/stable/23251281?casa_token=Vzmf2etZIRwAAAAA:CnigYjWZeyoUkgs3UHL2p1PhgUfgXfRYQ88NVA_K6EulrZt7DqfuPmX3XvJOfSDElOAWlg5xyNX76Qhs4S_03OVguu4bkRPQ67bYDcfT5SRaIsXzGQ

The early expression of squamosal horns and parietal ornamentation confirmed by new end-stage juvenile Pachycephalosaurus fossils from the Upper Cretaceous Hell Creek Formation, Montana https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02724634.2016.1078343

• I think that might be premature. One 2015 paper[4], for example, only says "A third species, Stygimoloch spinifer Galton and Sues 1983, may (Horner and Goodwin, 2009) or may not be an ontogimorph of P. wyomingensis (eg, Longrich et al., 2010)." So it still depends on who you ask, there is no overall consensus. As for Jurassic World, I think a more important factor is that Stygimoloch is featured in a lot of popular dinosaur books from the 90s, and the JP franchise seems to be stuck in that era, caring little for scientific developments since. I was surprised they featured as recently named an animal as Sinoceratops, but that was probably just to pander to the Chinese market, and even that dinosaur was horribly disfigured, with open holes in the neck frill... But one strange caveat to this is that Jack Horner, who is the main proponent of the synonymy, is also the main scientific advisor to the JP series, so something doesn't add up... FunkMonk (talk) 23:41, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• There are a few papers that mention Stygimoloch or Dracorex as possibly valid, but these are all in passing, and none are intended as actual remarks on the species status. The paper you shared demonstrates this very well; the second author, David Evans, a year later coauthored "The early expression of squamosal horns and parietal ornamentation confirmed by new end-stage juvenile Pachycephalosaurus fossils from the Upper Cretaceous Hell Creek Formation, Montana", which presented new material supporting the synonymy. Papers mentioning the genus in passing is not evidence to contradict the studies that analyze the genus' validity. As for JW, Jack Horner apparently got one veto for Fallen Kingdom. He tried to use it for Stygimoloch, but someone high up had their mind made up, so it stayed. Everyone gives him crap for the movies, but the reality is they don't listen to him. He keeps it up because it funds his lab, which is a pretty worthy cause. Among other things, it's the reason Mary Shweitzer's work on biomolecules started, and why they have such great funding to keep it up. BoneSharpe (talk) 01:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we would need some more opinions before merging, it could be brought up at the dinosaur project talk page. But my hunch is we need to give it more time to settle. FunkMonk (talk) 14:15, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Premature lumping

Don’t you think you’re jumping the gun a bit by lumping ‘’Stygimoloch’’ under ‘’Pachycephalosaurus’’? I mean, they don’t even belong to the same strata. ‘’Stygimoloch’’ is more recent than ‘’Pachycephalosaurus’’ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.75.110.242 (talk) 05:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

• I completely agree with this for a different reason. Until it is definitively found that Dracorex and Stygimoloch are indeed just Pachycephalosaurus, then they should remain unlumped pages, simple as that. If they do get lumped, go ahead and lump them, if they don't then they'll just remain their seperate pages, but until then they are dubious and should remain as seperate pages imo. Theferretman21 (talk) 09:18, 9 February 2020 (UTC)theferretman21

Well, since no scientific papers have contested this synonymy, the issue does not seem to be contentious. Anyhow, here is the discussion that lead to the merger:[5] FunkMonk (talk) 22:01, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

How definite is definite for you? As the previous discussion concluded, the weight of the current scientific consensus on this matter - an uncontroversial one - is that they are ontogenetic synonyms. We are not beholden to some hypothetical future paper that might argue for their separation. If and when such a paper is published, then we can reevaluate whether we should keep them merged. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 23:25, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

But that doesn't feel consistent. People think Torosaurus is an adult Triceratops but we have them as separate. Nobody thinks that Troodon and Titanosaurus exist anymore yet they still have articles. Care to explain? 92.30.80.61 (talk) 20:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be consistent here, all that matters is what most of the scientific papers say. No one argues against Stygimoloch being a junior synonym, but there are still two camps in regard to Torosaurus/Triceratops. Troodon is an entirely different kind of issue. Troodon "exists", the type specimen just doesn't have any distinguishing features, so we can't assign other specimens to the genus. Same for Titanosaurus. FunkMonk (talk) 20:28, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, but just remember, everyone said that Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus were the same animal and look what happened there. I'm no saying the papers were wrong, I'm just recommending the err of caution. 92.30.80.61 (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

That was a very different case, everyone agreed they were different species, just not whether they were different genera (which is subjective anyway). In this case, it's about whether these things belong to the same species or not. And no one has really argued for them being distinct in the literature recently. FunkMonk (talk) 20:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Are there Pachycephalosaurus skeletons yet?

It seems there are many. But the article only discusses about the skulls.  Dinosaur (talk) 🌴🦕🦖 -- 18:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

There is at least one, the "Sandy" specimen, and most/all of those are replicas of that. But it hasn't been described yet, so we can't write much about it. FunkMonk (talk) 18:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@FunkMonk I've been trying to find a source for this. Could you please help? So far I haven't been able to find any articles about the Sandy specimen when searching Paleobiodb with keyword Pachycephalosaurus. I understand it hasn't been described yet but it had to be mentioned somewhere else informally, didn't it?  Dinosaur (talk) 🌴🦕🦖 -- 22:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Here is the product page from the sellers of the cast: http://trieboldpaleontology.com/pachycephalosaurus.html FunkMonk (talk) 22:44, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The original fossil: http://dinosaursanctuary.com/pachycephalosaurus.html FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

How is P. wyomingensis the only valid species?

How can P. wyomingensis be the only valid species of Pachycephalosaurus if remains of the genus have been found in south dakota, montana and canada? P. wyomingensis was only from wyoming, hence its name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.210.108 (talk) 20:14, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

The name doesn't matter here, most studies synonymize Stygimoloch spinifer with Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis, the combination Pachycephalosaurus spinifer has never been used in the literature, if you can provide a reference citing this combination, it'll be very welcomed. JurassicClassic767 (talk | contribs) 20:23, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Pachycephalosaurus only lived in Wyoming?

If the only species of Pachycephalosaurus is P. wyomingensis, that means that Pachycephalosaurus only lived in the state of wyoming and nowhere else — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.210.108 (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Please read my answer in the previous comment section, the name doesn't matter. Also, the Hell Creek Formation, one of the formations were Pachy was found, isn't only in Wyoming, but also in other states. JurassicClassic767 (talk | contribs) 20:33, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

P. wyomingensis name literally says that it was found only in Wyoming, not in other states like Montana or South Dakota. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.210.108 (talk) 20:36, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but as mentioned before, Stygimoloch, as well as Dracorex, have been synonymized with Pachycephalosaurus, and they weren't only discovered in Wyoming. JurassicClassic767 (talk | contribs) 20:44, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

But that makes no sense, and makes the species name of P. wyomingensis extremely misleading— Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.210.108 (talk • contribs) 98.18.210.108 (UTC)

Generally speaking, specific names referring to a place usually refers to EITHER where the holotype specimen was found, OR where the species is generally located. Sometimes both.--Mr Fink (talk) 01:52, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, a place-name in the binomial doesn't mean it has to be exclusively found there, just that it was first found there. FunkMonk (talk) 15:53, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Did Pachycephalosaurus have massive spikes?

If Stygimoloch and Dracorex, which are juvenile Pachycephalosaurus, had long spikes coming out of their heads, then obviously Pachycephalosaurus had to have even longer and more impressive spikes as an adult.

The spikes around Triceratops frills also appear to have been reabsorbed into the frills with age. FunkMonk (talk) 15:54, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Why would the spikes reabsorb with age? doesn't that defeat the purpose of having spikes coming out of the head if the vanish upon sexual maturity?

Who knows (you'd have to look up the literature), depends on what exactly the spikes were for, but I don't see anyone doubting this happened in Triceratops either. FunkMonk (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Edit request: Add information from Stygimoloch and Dracorex pages.

A few days, I saw a thread on the Dinosaurs subreddit about a person who was disappointed that the Dracorex page was redirected. (@Ornithopsis: should know what I'm talking about) This made me realize that while this page comprehensively lists most of the information on P. wyomingensis itself, it lacks information about its famous junior synonyms Stygimoloch and Dracorex. If anyone has time, someone should probably add the discovery history of Stygimoloch and Dracorex from their original pages, and maybe add how they became intertwined with Pachycephalosaurus over the years. (Think of how we added information from Othnielia and Othnielosaurus to the Nanosaurus page when all were synonymized) Thanks in advance. Miracusaurs (talk) 03:38, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It is true that the information from the individual pages should have been transferred during the merge. Anyone can do it by looking at the old versions of the respective pages and copying the text here. FunkMonk (talk) 07:44, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Type Species: Troodon or Pachycephalosaurus?

Why is the type species listed as Troodon and why are edits that change it to Pachycephalosaurus being reverted? Could we settle this dispute here and decide which it should be? Big baboon 272 (talk) 11:03, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I know this comment is well over a year old, but seeing as this is a persistent issue I figure it should be clarified in writing. Over on the template page for the automatic taxobox, the parameters for the type species are very explicit about following the ICZN's guidelines, namely 67B:

The name of a type species should be cited by its original binomen. If the name of the type species is, or is currently treated as, an invalid name, authors may also cite its valid synonym.

The original binomen in this case being Troodon wyomingensis Gilmore, 1931, as the genus Pachycephalosaurus Brown & Schlaikjer, 1943 was erected from this species to form the new combination Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis. As for the latter part, the taxobox also satisfies this condition by listing the valid combination under the species list as P. wyomingensis (Gilmore, 1931)—the brackets denoting that this is not the original combination. This is all in accordance with the ICZN's guidelines and the policy outlined by the taxobox template, and so Troodon wyomingensis Gilmore 1931 is the correct combination for the type species parameter.

Cheers, DrawingDinosaurs (talk | contribs) 05:11, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

He said, like he knew what he was talking about... Sorry, but I misunderstood what this section of the code meant when I wrote this. Troodon wyomingensis Gilmore, 1931 is indeed the original combination for Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis (Gilmore, 1931), but it is not the species that the genus Pachycephalosaurus itself was erected upon and so not the type species. That goes to P. grangeri Brown & Schlaikjer, 1943, and is therefore the actual original combination of the type species for Pachycephalosaurus and so should be cited as such. That's my bad, I got caught up in the Troodon vs. Pachycephalosaurus part and missed the actual meaning of the code.DrawingDinosaurs (talk | contribs) 04:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Evidence for Pachycephalosaurus being 70 million years old?

The taxobox states that the oldest Pachycephalosaurus is about 70 mya. Is it true as far as I know it was restricted to digsites dating 68-66mya. 61.69.150.4 (talk) 08:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)