Talk:Pan-Arabism/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Assyrians & racist Pan Arabism, Arabization

• The Assyrians have faced and continue to face a systematic Arabization, Turkification, and Kurdification policies by Pan-Arab governments .

• ...In Lebanon, once a majority Christian country, Christians represent only 34% of its population of four million people, according to the World Christian Database. The database, which bases its work on church estimates, says Arab Christians’ percentage in the Palestinian territories has also dropped from 5.3% in 1970 to 2.5% of 3.7 million Palestinians today.In Jordan, a country of 5.4 million people, the Christian population dropped from 5% in 1970s to about 3% now, according to a U.S State Department report. But, in Egypt, the number of Copts - Egyptian Christians - range from 5.6 million, according to Egyptian government estimates, to 11 million people, according to Coptic Church estimates. Nonetheless, they complain of discrimination in the most populated Arab country of 80 million people. One example of this is that the government still restricts the building of churches in Egypt,
  The Christian flight from Syria occurred in part for economic reasons. [...]
  In October 1986, 22 members of the Assyrian Democratic Organisation - founded in 1957 in Qamishli to promote Assyrian rights in Syria - were arrested for opposing the government’s official policy of Arabization. They were released after six months in detention.

[...] government policies of Arabization and discrimination against ethnic minorities, including Kurds, as well as economic crises are pushing these minorities - especially Assyrians - to abandon their homes they built brick by brick.

• ...problems, which are facing Assyrians, such as Arabization, submission to the dictatorial regimes and phobia of declaring the real nationalist belonging.

• Assyriac: Denied in Its Own Homeland, but Accepted in England ...These opportunists provide a convenient spiritual cover in the legitimisation of a totalitarian policy of Assyrians Arabization. ...

Toothie3 (talk) 05:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

MISC.

Since Nableezy will try to "discredit" any source anyhow...

- (Arabist Indoctrination... Later Arab nationalist figures like Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser or Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein found the linguistic definition of Arabism convenient in order to neglect, if not completely reject, the reality of ethnic and cultural diversity in the Middle East. This view--also adopted by a number of social scientists and post-Edward Said Middle East scholars--holds that the Middle East is populated by a breed of culturally and linguistically homogeneous Arabs. Assyrians, Berbers, Copts, Chaldaeans, Kurds, Maronites and many other millions of Middle Eastern peoples who possess their own distinct cultural and historical heritage and who disapprove of their ascribed latter-day Arabness, are nevertheless anointed as Arabs. If they do not embrace their Arabness, they are dismissed as traitors or isolationists.
Robert Kaplan expressed this negative slant against Middle Eastern minorities in the conclusion of his remarkable book The Arabists, which examined the history of State Department experts on the Arab world. These experts, the so-called Arabists, he argued, quoting a U.S. Foreign Service official, "[h]ave not liked Middle Eastern minorities. Arabists have been guilty in the past of loving the majority and the idea of Uruba, which roughly translates as 'Arabism.' I remember once going to a Foreign Service party and hearing people refer to the Maronite Christians in Lebanon as 'fascists.'" Lebanese commentator Michael Young adds, "What pro-Arab Americans couldn't stomach was that the [Middle East's] Christians were often estranged from [¦the Muslims] and from the Arab nationalism the region engendered [1].
I have always seen Israel as the result of the national liberation movement of the region's aboriginal Jews.
- Liberation of the aboriginal Jews (and anyone else lucky enough to find refuge within Israel's borders) from the twin fascisms of pan-Arabism and Islamism which have oppressed and even eliminated so many of the region's aboriginal ethnic groups. Israel's aboriginal Jews were not unique in accepting outside help (and even immigration) in their liberation struggle. Lebanon's Maronites; Egypt's Copts, Iraq and Turkey's Kurds, and Iran's Zoroastrians have all sought and received outside help in their liberation struggles, each group according to its own circumstances [2].
- Non-Arab and/or non-Muslims in the "Arab" world, One key element missing from the discussion is the question of non-Arab and/or non-Muslims in the “Arab” world. The Arab nationalists have succeeded in establishing some 23 non-democratic, ethnically (Arab) and religiously (Islam) defined nation-states in over 1 million square miles of territory, often at the expense of non-Arabs, such as the Kurds (Muslims, non-Arabs), Assyrians (Christians, non-Arabs), Copts (Christians, non-Arabs), southern Sudanese (Christian and pagan non-Arabs), Maronite Lebanese (Christian and mostly identified with their Phoenician ancestors) and Mizrahi Jews. Arab nationalist ideology claims all this territory exclusively as “Arab” despite the legitimate claims of non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims to ancient homelands long ago arabized with the spread of Islam, often through conquest. I believe that the Arab opposition to the existence of non-Arab, non-Muslim Israel is based on the ideological motivations which led to the persecution of non-Arab minorities. The Assyrians suffered massacre and expulsion by the Arab nationalists of Iraq in the 1920s and 1930s. The Kurds have been persecuted and have suffered terribly for their struggle to establish an independent Kurdistan (at the hands of the Turks and Iranians as well, but that is another story.) Arab nationalist ideology, and its Islamicist couterpart, cannot and will not tolerate non-Arab and non-Islamic peoples organizing themselves into their own independent nation states. Indeed, I have seen on Islamicist web sites the goal of “regaining” Spain in the name of Islam. I believe that we need to place Israel's struggle to survive into this context. Any non-Arab/non-Islamic state in the region must rely on strength (political, moral, spiritual and military) if it wants to survive in the Middle East. In this context can we thus place Israel's demand for security. It is not security for the sake of security, not seucirty for the sake of oppressing another people, but security for the sake of survival against two racist and exclusivist ideologies (Arabism and Islamicism) which have succeeded in repressing the just struggles for national self-determination of most non-Arab peoples in the Middle East. [3]).

- The idea of an Arab Palestinian people distinct from the larger Arab-Islamic nation was not only utterly new, but contrary to two fundamental historic concepts: that of the umma (the worldwide Islamic community), and of the Arab nation—the ideology, dating from the 1890s, that promoted a pan-Arab totalitarian nationalism proclaiming the Arabs and superior people and combined with pan-Islamism." After all, if the Arabs were so interested in creating a Palestinian state, they could have done so any time before 1967, when they controlled Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank. http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/thornton032605.html

- Tyranny is a fundamental tenet of Baathism and other Islamism. They want to reestablish the Islamic Empire. Indeed, the Baathist ideology, as defined by its founder Michel Aflaq, taught that the Arab race was superior.

The Baathists and Islamists have more in common with totalitarians and racists than they do with patriots. The Iraqi insurgents are identical to the Imperial Japanese, Nazis, Fascists, Communists, and the KKK. They share the same beliefs of totalitarianism, racism, as well as a moral and political superiority. [4]

Toothie3 (talk) 01:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I too am gathering sources but wont post them yet since Nableezy will disregard any source as unrealiable clearly out of either bias or denial. I agree with toothie the evidence doesnt lie, Pan-Arabism is guily of racism,oppression,totalitarianism and genocide of non-arab groups and it is argued as being another form of Islamism or racial supremecy. Racist element of it isnt opinion its fact as the events toothie listed indicated♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 18:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources that do not meet the requirements of WP:RS are not acceptable, I do not understand what is so hard to understand about that. Use reliable sources and there will not be a problem. nableezy - 19:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• There is a thread here regarding this issue at the WP:BLPN feel free to discuss this issue there and present your case if you dispute Nableezy's or my comments, Nableezy is clearly correct in his position. This citation is nowhere near a wikipedia reliable source, also this claim is controversial and for such claims about living people we would need very strong citations indeed, we should not be sensationalist or give undue weight to extreme or minority opinions. Off2riorob (talk) 19:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Miss-simworld, here's about the totalitarianism, the very important subject you raised.

Pan Arabism = Totalitarianism

As an Arab admits on the Lebanese Arab site: 'The Daily Star,' (March 23, 2005): Over the past 50 years, authoritarian leaders in the region have banded together in support for each other almost blindly, despite all evidence of despotism, totalitarianism and heavy handed oppression. Although the ideal of pan-Arab unity was never realized, it seems that what has been achieved is a union of corrupt regimes. Grossly misusing the language of Arab unity, they casually dismissed the mass murders that occurred under Saddam Hussein's rule, as well as genocide in Sudan, Syrian oppression of Lebanon, and countless other tragedies... [5]

Toothie3 (talk) 01:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you disqualifying that POPULAR DailyStar Lebanese source now?

Toothie3 (talk) 01:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Darfur genocide motivated by Arabism

http://www.newsandletters.org/Issues/2007/Aug-Sept/Darfur-Aug-Sept_07.htm http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/17560 http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11773830&Itemid=0 http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/global/Global_Politics/Darfur.asp http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/12/AR2005071201366.html http://www.thenewblackmagazine.com/view.aspx?index=768

none of these is a reliable sources with the exception of the Washington Post article which does not discuss pan-Arabism, or for that matter Arabism. nableezy - 20:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Berbers Supressed by Arabism

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a776024710&db=all http://www.north-of-africa.com/article.php3?id_article=140 http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/140358 http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/141012 http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL1839691820080518 http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/99694263.html?dids=99694263:99694263&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jun+15%2C+1992&author=Nissim+Rejwan&pub=Jerusalem+Post&desc=ARAB+CONSTITUTIONS+SKIMP+MINORITY+RIGHTS&pqatl=google

3 of these are RSs (Martyrs and patriots: ethnic, national and transnational dimensions of Kabyle politics, the JPost article, and the Reuters piece), but with the exception of Martyrs and patriots (which I have just started to read) they do not discuss the topic of this article. nableezy - 20:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Dont worry I am adding more for you to reject from Pan-Arab bias here reject this one too http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090122/FOREIGN/789789838/1002

What does that say about pan-Arabism? Arabism on a local level and the idea that Arab states should unite (pan-Arabism) are not the same thing. nableezy - 21:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Unite with and in what? well you know the nazis made a similar arguement that all of Europe should unite and believed in a pan-Germanic ethnic nationalism. No wonder hitler loved Pan-Arabism. Oh come on please its not the same thing? States which this racist ideology believes belongs exculsively to Arabs and should be identified only as Arab, it disregards the plurality and diversity of this region. Go the Map of this idelology they label as Arab when this land does not exclusively belong to arabs just like Europe does not exclusively belong to Nazis or the Germanic people.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 01:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Im no longer arguing with any of your nonsense; bring reliable sources, simple as that. I will pursue the steps in WP:DR to clear this article of the garbage the three of you have teamed up to force in to it. nableezy - 01:52, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

More

http://www.aina.org/news/20060322172936.htm http://www.aina.org/news/20060808164534.htm

The Middle East - Page 89 by Library Information and Research Service - Middle East - 1999 After Sayyid Jamal, in Arabic countries and especially in Egypt, many individuals were found who, by leaning on racism, Arabism and pan-Arabism, ... The Middle East - Page 89 by Library Information and Research Service - Middle East - 1999 After Sayyid Jamal, in Arabic countries and especially in Egypt, many individuals were found who, by leaning on racism, Arabism and pan-Arabism, ... http://books.google.com/books?id=Ma1tAAAAMAAJ&q=arabism

http://books.google.com/books?id=vPcAAAAAMAAJ&q=arabism+nasser A New Road for France - Page 30 by Jacques Soustelle, Benjamin Protter - Political Science - 1965 - 278 pages Israel and French Algeria were... two barriers against which the totalitarian wave.. embodied by Nasser... a dictatorial pseudo-state type was created in Algeria, firmly tied to a single party, dominated by the racist ideology of a Nasser-type pan-Arabism and by the revolutionary fanaticism of the Ulemas...algeria engaged itself in this fundamental domain on the road traced by Nasser's Pan-Arabism and that the Christian and Jewish minority has been victim of a new discrimination ...the enlightened spokesmen of human fraternity and peace are symbolized by Gamal Abdel-Nasser, who assiduously prepares, with the Nazis around him, the revenge of Himmler and Eichmann against Israel

Violence, Political Culture & Development in Africa - Page 98 by Preben Kaarsholm - Social Science - 2006 - 208 pages ... and the racist ideology of 'Arabism' aligned with Islam that a succession of governments in Khartoum had adopted in fighting the wars in the South. ... http://books.google.com/books?id=G-pVrSSxU7IC&pg=PA98

Rethinking Nationalism in the Arab Middle East - Page 213 by James P. Jankowski, I. Gershoni - History - 1997 - 372 pages ... of the Algerian Front Islamique du Salut (FIS) uses the 1967 defeat as proof that Arabism, being a form of racism, cannot elicit a sense of community ... http://books.google.com/books?id=f3axNF2GdCkC&pg=PA213

African Politics - Page 84 by P. F. Gonidec - Political Science - 1980 - 367 pages In the beginning, under the umbrella of Islamism and subsequently of Arabism, ... This is the 'anti-racist racism' of JP Sartre, who has very well analysed ... http://books.google.com/books?id=4lMcN-EWwTcC&pg=PA84

Racism, Culture, Markets - Page 139 by John Gabriel - Social Science - 1994 - 212 pages without parallel economic growth... inevitably delivers a population into some kind of ism, whether it be communism, fascism or pan Arabism, and weans them away from democracy http://books.google.com/books?id=wKsxy6lioasC&pg=PA139

will be adding more ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 20:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you please read WP:RS. Most of these sources do not qualify as they are either websites with no editorial control or reputation for fact-checking, some of them are simply editorials, and some of them are RSs, though they often dont discuss the topic of this article. nableezy - 20:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Miss-simworld, I think Nebleezy's back & forth emtpy arguments are way to trnanparent though he covers his empty arguments with "wiki rule". Even most common sources like NYTimes, BBC & the DailyMail or any books are discredited by him. Oh, well.

Toothie3 (talk) 01:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

That is, simply put, a lie. I have not said the sources you just named are unreliable, what I have said is that editorials and opinion pieces are reliable only for the opinion of the author, not for statements of fact. And many books are reliable source, for example the book you keep linking a review to published by Yale University Press, that is a reliable source. However, books not published by respected publishers are not reliable sources. Self-published books are not reliable sources. All of this is explained in WP:RS and WP:V. Go read those pages. The book you keep linking to, The Gramsci Factor: 59 Socialists in Congress, by Chuck Morse, is published by iUniverse, a self-publishing company. That book is not a reliable source. nableezy - 01:56, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Added above 2 pieces (about racism of Pan Arabim) more from The Guardian & from a recognized book on Darfur, try to "discredit" (by empty ridicule) the writers as you can not discredit The Guardian which is quite biased-pro-Arabist in its views on the M.E. LOL.

Toothie3 (talk) 09:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

The two guardian pieces you added are opinion pieces. nableezy - 17:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

How to write a really bad Wikipedia article. Or, alternatively, a better one

Apologies for butting in here, but Nableezy is 100% correct above. You guys need to take a step back, understand that this place purports to be an encyclopedia - not a collaborative blog or polemic - and read up on some basic policy and guidelines, especially WP:NPOV and WP:RS. And perhaps even WP:TRUTH. Arriving at a page with firmly held and fixed convictions about something, googling for anything online that vaguely appears that it might back up that point of view and then flinging it all at the article alongside badly written and screamingly partisan additions of text, while soapboxing on the talk page, is not the way to get a proper, decent objective page written about anything. This is not about "defending" or "promoting" pan-Arabism. Indeed, someone with strong pan-Arabist convictions could do exactly what you are doing, but the other way round. No one is doing that, thankfully, or we'd be in an even bigger mess.

It is possible to write sober, objective articles about topics, including controversial ones, without descending into hyperbole, polemic and Godwin's Law. To do that, you rely on serious mainstream and academic sources - not simply newspaper op-eds or the Guardian's Comment is Free posting board, activist websites and books written by former members of the OAS etc - and endeavour to include all perspectives and points of view related to the topic with due weight. Sure pan-Arabism, like any nationalist movement, rubs up sometimes against other nationalisms and against minorities within its claimed area, and sometimes looks to rather unsavoury allies outside it. This can be covered fairly and accurately, without relying on shrill and partisan commentary and screaming "Nazism!" from the lead onwards. As I say, by googling the appropriate keywords and selective sourcing, someone could easily construct an article here that tells everyone how pan-Arabism is an inclusive philosophy, whose adherents fought a heroic struggle against the colonialist oppressor and brought enlightenment and progress to the all the peoples of the Middle East. None of this is very informative. N-HH talk/edits 14:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

We wont stipulate our personal opinions but we wont hide or be apologetic to this fascist idelogy like Nableezy is. No hyperbole here, only facts and opinions of REAL acadmeics and human rights activists people have to encounter Pan-Arabism on a daily basis. Pan-Arabist and Arab Nationalists themselves and the Nazis stated they had much in common and sympathized with each others causes. This isnt speculation but fact. YOU have no idea what this racist idelogy of hate has inflicted on the Middle East, Just like Nazism has did to Germany and Europe but this still ideology lives on and thats what keeps the Middle East backward and full of hatred of other peoples. We are only putting down the facts. Pan-Arabism is a form of Colonialism and its opressive in it's own right since it gave birth to dictatorships and totalitarianism in the Middle East.HAS been responsible along with gruesome genocides and ethnic cleansing enciting This is something that will be added♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 14:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• This talkpage is for things that will improve the article, soapboxing rants like this should be avoided completely, if such commentary continues on this talkpage I will make a report to an administrator asking for action. Off2riorob (talk) 14:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

With all due rtespect, he is "right" Like his classical way of discrediting a person like Pipes with a: 'Ahaha He's "paid" by someone to speak' (see above Jimmy Crater being paid by Arab loby, VS Pipes)? Toothie3 (talk) 19:31, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• If Nablezey rejects any mentioning of the racism of Pan Arabism that oppresses/oppressed so many millions of victims that happen not to be 100% "pure" Arab (Berbers, Kurds, Persian, Copts, Persians, Jews, Africans, Asian (sex & labour) slaves in the Gulf states, and more), what else can one think? Toothie3 (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• It is enough not subjective to put so much emphasis at the start by defining Pan Arabism as "unity", if you ask victims you would hear it's more bout exclusion and denying the "other". To minimize this POV the EXCLUSION-ISM must be addressed at the beginning, since this anti-others was from the beginning until now, still is, not only in Darfur.Toothie3 (talk) 19:31, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That is literally too dumb to respond to. nableezy - 19:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Pan Arabism racism, Objectivity, truth & victimhood

-It is bad enough not subjective to put so much emphasis at the start by defining Pan Arabism as "unity", if you ask victims you would hear it's more bout exclusion and denying the "other". To minimize this POV the EXCLUSION-ISM must be addressed at the beginning, since this anti-others was from the beginning until now, still is, not only in Darfur.

-With all due respect, Nableezy is "right" Like his classical way of discrediting a person like Pipes with a: 'Ahaha He's "paid" by someone to speak' (see above Jimmy Crater charged of being paid by Arab lobby, VS Pipes)?

- If Nablezey rejects any mentioning of the racism of Pan Arabism that oppresses/oppressed so many millions of victims that just happen not to be 100% "pure" Arab (Berbers, Kurds, Persian, Copts, Persians, Jews, Africans, Asian (sex & labour) slaves in the Gulf states, and more), what else can one think about not seing an angenda?

- If one (tells us he ) doesn't "like" a piece by the BBC, The Guardian, etc., it still does not make it "unreliable".

- Nothing about "nableezy" personally, he also tried to make my words sound as if he is a "victim" here, but he would do more honor for Arabs if he would not defend the facsism factor.

Our point is again, that non-Arab should have a voice about this cruel bloody historic & present racism.

Toothie3 (talk) 19:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Please read WP:SOAP. This page is full of suds. Please try to focus and limit your comments to improving the article by introducing reliable secondary sources that discuss Pan-Arabism. Please try to avoid original research and WP:SYNTH by taking articles that discuss discrimination by Arabs against non-Arab minorities, but which do not mention this in the context of pan-Arabism, and using them to draw your own conclusions. Thank you. Tiamut^talk 20:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Part 2 of reliable links on racism, fascism, Pan Arabism

• This: al-Arabi (Arab Union), a militantly racist and pan- Arabist organization which stressed the "Arab" character of the province is published by Cornell [6], and the following is by Brill:

(Case studies on human rights and fundamental freedoms: a world survey, Volume 1‎ - Page 455 Willem Adriaan Veenhoven, Winifred Crum Ewing, Stichting Plurale Samenlevingen - Law - 1976)

• Military Pan-Arabism is essentially racist and is therefore bound to favour slavery... (Daily Times, Nigeria, September 9, 1969.)... Refusal by Arab countries to sell oil to African states at a reduced price is a tacit example that Arabs, our former slave masters, are not prepared to abandon the rider-and-horse relationship. We have forgotten that they used to drive us like herds of cattle and sell us as slaves... (Zambia Daily Mail, June 21, 1974)

[7]

(The myth of the Jewish race, Volume 1988‎ - Page 187 Raphael Patai, Jennifer Patai - Social Science - 1989 - 456 pages, Wayne State University Press)

• The Latest Libel: The Jews as racist... In 1960 the French Comite d' Action de Defense De- mocratique published a pamphlet titled Racism and Pan-Arabism

[8]

Pan Arabism's "chief" Mr. Aflaq & fascism:
(World fascism: a historical encyclopedia - Cyprian Blamires, Paul Jackson - 2006 - History)

• The Ba'th movement undoubtedly shared certain characteristic featuers of European fascism... several close associates later admitted that 'Aflaq had been directly inspired by certain fascist and Nazi theories [9]

The Imam and the Ommat: as seen through the illustrated messages (This book [10] on page 1) - Page 1 Ruhollah Khomeini, Laleh Bakhtiar - History - 1981 - 152 pages

• Pan-Arabism, Arab nationalism and racism have been nourished in these times.

Aflagh made extensive use of the national socialism of the Nazis. They have made use of the Nazi idea of racism and the preference of the Aryan race. Aflagh replaces being Arab with the idea of being German. They developed slogans similar to the Nazi one

The Mufti as Pan-Arab nazi responsible for driving out the Jews:
Iraqi Author Dr. Rashid Al-Khayoun:

• Iraqi Jews Were Driven Out of the Country by Pan-Arab Extremists, Led By Nazi Ally [[Mufti] Haj Amin Al-Husseini

[11]

More on the Mufti - his Pan Arab quest & achieving it through the Nazis:

• Shortly after World War II broke out in 1939, the Mufti of Jerusalem crafted a strategic alliance with Hitler to exchange Iraqi oil for active Arab and Islamic participation in the murder of Jews in the Mideast and Eastern Europe. This was predicated on support for a pan-Arab state and Arab control over Palestine. [12]

(The Journal of international studies, Volumes 30-31 By Sophia University. Institute of International Relations Author 上智大学. 国際関係研究所, Publisher Institute of International Relations, Sophia University, 1969 [13], p. 31)

• atrocities visited on black Africans there pale into insignificance when measured against African resistance against racist Arabism currently being practiced in such places as Mauritania, Sudan and Algeria.

(Title African affairs, Volume 107, Author Royal African Society, Publisher Published for the Royal African Society by the Oxford University Press, 2008 [14], p.27)

• The Darfur conflict, raging since 2003, has given new urgency to questions about Arabism, Islam and race in Sudan...

(p. 28) ...racism is manifested by Arabs' derogatory use of term 'abid ('slaves') - and what the Northern Sudanese writer Mansur Khalid called 'a series of [other] unprintable slurs' -- to applly to western and southern peoples. This Arabism is ideological

Toothie3 (talk) 06:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem is toothie the same people or person who is complaining about subjectivity here is the same person/people who had no problem with the previous state of this article which was a Propaganda piece missing crucial parts of history and the real origins of this movement and the consquences of it. The funny thing is this article had NO sources prior to our edits, yet we are being made to look we are breaking the rules or are doing shoddy editing. The sources toothie has provided are cannot be questioned as unrealiable since they directly talk about document/contexualize on pan-arabism. Nableezy has rejected many sources in his view for being opinated yet books written by Pan-Arabists are realialbe sources, if you want to see what i mean go see the Nasserism article.We have been asked to provide sources to back up our editing which we have and now it seems some are resorting to cheap tricks to silence the other side of this ideology♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 01:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Have you read WP:RS? I havent looked at all of the ones in the section, a few look fine, but all the op-eds that you and Toothie have produced are not reliable for anything except the opinion of the author. And some of the other books, such as the self-published one the two of you keep quoting ([15]), are not reliable sources. I have already asked about several of the sources used in the article, those question have been ignored. I will, once the article is unlocked, clear this article of the unreliable sources and the garbage sourced to them. Sources that do not meet the requirements of WP:RS will be removed. I've listed at least ten of those sources above, and I will go through the next. Unrelated things that have no reliable sources linking them to pan-Arabism will likewise be removed, the three pictures of al-Hasayn are what comes to mind, same for the quote of a random Egyptian at a bus stop. nableezy - 01:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The picture of Hussainy and Hitler is very relevant Husseiny was one of the primary leaders of the Arab Nationalist/Pan-Arabist movement with an alliance with Hitler and the Third reich who shared deep sympathy for their cause. Nableezy you dont want that quote in because it talks about the Arabs mosted enemy Israel this shows your own bias, that qouate and source is very revealant it was part of research on Egyptians and what some felt about Pan-Arabism/ That quote about what a a random Egyptian felt towards Pan-Arabism is reveleant since it mentions events in past and present history relating Egypt and the reigion itself, the quote came from a reaserach study its staying in. so producing propaganda books or sources written by Pan-Arabists and their sympathizers is considered realiable? I see so sources from pan-arabists themselves where they did show a closeness and alliance with nazism is not realible but propaganda is?♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 01:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

It is one random Egyptian, and there are secondary sources that say that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians disagree with this one random Egyptian at a bus stop. You want a picture of the Mufti fine, but that picture has nothing to do with the Mufti as it relates to pan-Arabism, and neither does the Himmler letter. And most of the sources used talking about Nazism are garbage. And, please please please, go read WP:RS. The author of the source is not the major issue, it is the publisher and how it was published. Opinion pieces and editorials are not reliable sources for statements of fact, they are only reliable for the opinion of the author. That goes for an editorial by a pan-Arabist or by whoever else. Self-published sources should not be used unless the person is a recognized expert in the field, and even then they should still be avoided. And we may be talking about different quotes, I am not talking about the ones in the origins section, I am talking about those sourced to the interview at a bus station by al-Masry al-Youm. Those do not belong in the article, the ones discussing Egyptian attitudes to pan-Arabism, and even to some extent Arab identity (though that should only be briefly covered here), are fine. nableezy - 03:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Himmler letter reflects as EVIDENCE the nazis clear sympathy and support for the pan-arab cause not only against zionism but against jews aswell. It was part of study and he wasnt the only one to say something like that there is actually another quote from another man and others.Overwhelming majority? Who are you to say that? That inst cited in the article, what the man did say in his quote does very honest known facts about Arabism one thing was the Arabs did dance and celebrate when Sadat was murdered, Egyptians are mistreated and insulted by khaleejis and saudis as expats,.Btw many Egyptians hate Nasser (especially copts) and consider themselves Egyptian only. Arabism thanks to the racist Nasser is only a new phoenemon and even before his coup which turned Egypt into a police state its called the liberal age. Many of Egypts problems can been sourced to the beginning of the nasserist era and even the novel The Yacoubian Building centers its theme around the rotting state and the failed revolution that failed its people and incited fanaticism, Most Egyptian intellects recognize this. The problem is you dont like to hear this and is desperate to cover up and make this back to a propaganda piece and in sad denial of what pan-arabism actually really means.

I am sorry wikipedia wouldnt tolerate a neo-nazi demanding the article for Nazism be less negative and cover up the fact it is a racist totalitarian ideology same should be done here.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 03:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I dont really care what you think. The Himmler letter says nothing about pan-Arabism, nothing at all. Show one reliable source that relates that letter to pan-Arabism, not to support for the Arabs or opposition to the Jews in Palestine, but to pan-Arabism. nableezy - 04:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

And who am I to say "the vast majority of Egyptians"? Nobody, really, but this on the other hand makes pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians do not agree with the idea that that unity with Israel may even be more of a possibility than Arab nationalism as we quote this one random Egyptian at a bus stop. nableezy - 04:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The letter was adressing arabs-muslims in their sturggle and he wasnt just talking about palestine.Opposition to Jews? Yes thats all the nazis did same with arab nationalists with jews in Farhud. nobody said majority of Egyptians support Israel but you cannot speak for EVERY single Egyptian is a nasserists especially since Nasser was a racist FAILURE, this sadly what Pan-Arabism and the Arab Nationalism garbage wants to do to people make them all hate,think and believe in things like sheep and go around following the same rhetoric, individuality and free thinking is its enemy. this your own paranoia I am of Egyptian descent via my mother and I do not hate or love Israel. I do know however one of the main objections Arabs has to existance of Israel has nothing to do with the Palestinians its because just like Kurds,Assyrians, Berbers and other minorities they refuse to recognize the self-determination of a group of people in a region they see as exclusiviely Arab, this is why Saddam gassed those innocent Kurds in Anfal and try to push the Assyrians out because he believed in that same racist crap. ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Your personal opinions are meaningless, bring a reliable secondary source that makes the connection you are trying to make. What you think you know is simply not true, but, again, that does not matter. Bring reliable secondary sources. nableezy - 19:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The quote from the Egyptian writer that states the jews are here to stay on that land not defacto and pan-Arabists have to accept it is a realible source you may not want to hear it but its going in. So Arab nationalists dont reject the following groups ive listed rights to self-determination? Sources have been provided I can get more but we all know you will just start whining again that it's bias or unreliable i might do this tomorrow. My personal opinion? So Saddam didnt gass the Kurds in Anfal to Arabize those areas or Darfur genocide isnt motivated by Pan-Arabism? oh please its your denial that is meaningless.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 20:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

This is not about Arab nationalism, and your unsourced assertions remain irrelevant. Provide a reliable secondary source that makes the connection you are trying to make, else this remains WP:OR by WP:SYNTH. nableezy - 21:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Continued talkpage dispute

The same issues that caused the article to be fully protected are continuing here on the talkpage, it is my opinion that the full protection should be extended as removing it while no agreement has been reached on the talkpage will simply recreate the original editing problems. Off2riorob (talk) 01:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree please extend the protection of this page. ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 01:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense, there is no dispute here, a dispute requires that each of the parties address the issues raised by the others. I listed 10 separate problems with the sources used by the editors pushing this nonsense into the article, (see #Issues). So far there has been absolutely no response to any of them. Not even an assertion that the sources are reliable, they have just ignored the problem and continued to use these unreliable sources. These article needs to be pruned of all the garbage that has been added using op-eds and random websites. nableezy - 03:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

All I need to do is paste the original copy of this UNSOURCED article which will show it being nothing more than a bias, unhistoric propaganda piece to see you are not intersted in subjectivity here but SUPRESSING information. Daily mail,Books,Daily Star,BBC,Reuters,Memri,American Chronicle, quotes from Pan-Arabists themselves random? pruned of all the Garbage? You mean the negative FACTS and well sourced citations to make this another pan-arab propaganda piece again. you see there he is admitting it he's own personal POV and bias wont let other sources that ARE valid to be used in the article because he wants certain real but not so pretty elements covered up.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 03:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I have not said the previous version was good, it was however much less bad than this one. And I havent complained about "well-sourced" material, I have complained about things sourced to unreliable sources. And you have yet to address those complaints. nableezy - 04:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen Nableezy addressing/aggreeing to the validity of so many sources he was not able to "discredit" (even through his irrational methods)...

Not to mention all those admissions from the Arab world!

BTW, sorry to say that the only real propaganda is coming from nableezy's side as he tries to ommit the atrocities by this racist movement.

Yes, Miss-simworld is right equality should apply to all everywhere, Pan Arabism does not have to be more "sensitive", in fact it's we are who are being (for now...) super sensitive... as trying to avoid the title of Arab racism written so much by Africans, we try to focus on the specific promoters/leaders (Aflaq, Al-Husseini, Nasser, Saddam, Gaddhafi, Al-Bashir) and ideology not on a people.

Toothie3 (talk) 04:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliance on primary sources to push an argument that secondary reliable sources do not make is WP:OR. This is not your blog. nableezy - 04:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Re: Hannah Arendt's 'the origins of totalitarianism' & Fascism / Pan Arabism

Tyrants and Terrorists: Reflections on the Connection between Totalitarianism, Neo-liberalism, Civil War and the Failure of the State in Iraq and Sudan (Author: Thomas Schmidinger a Affiliation: a Department of Political Science, University of Vienna, Austria, DOI: 10.1080/13698240903157594)

The Ba'ath Party's Way to Totalitarianism: Hizb al-Ba'ath al-Arabi

...some in this pan-Arabist circle later created the Ba'ath Party, with a branch emerging in neighbouring Syria in the 1940s. The Christian Arab Michel Aflaq and the Sunni Muslim Salah ad-Din al-Bitar were equally fascinated by leftist and fascist ideas when they created their 'Arab socialism', an anti-imperialist compilation of socialist and fascist ideologies. This connection of left and extreme right-wing ideas that seems to be a specific characteristic of Ba'athism is, in fact, not as unusual as it seems. Classic European fascism also partially has its roots in the Left. Mussolini, who came from the Socialist Party in Italy, as well as the former anarcho-syndicalist Georges Sorel were ideological fathers of the classic fascist movement in Europe. Even the Nazis had their 'left wing' with the Strasser brothers and some parts of the Sturmabteiung (SA). Sorel and Mussolini's position moved from the left to the extreme right by the changes of their revolutionary subject.. Aflaq saw the Arab nation as the future revolutionary subject... the European fascists, the Ba'ath Party of Aflaq and Bitar, saw their movement as revolutionary and nationalist.

An alliance between the mob and the elite is a common phenomenon of totalitarian movements on their way to take state power, whereas once in power they depend on the spiebrger (philistines), as Hannah Arendt showed in her study on the origins of totalitarianism. The Ba'ath Party in Iraq formed this type of alliance between pan-Arabist intellectuals and the mob. In order to unite the Arab nation into a pan-Arab national state, the new pan-Arabist party tried to build up 'regional commands' in all Arab countries... [16]

Toothie3 (talk) 07:09, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

What do you think that says? Oh, and the line immediatley after that is However, in reality, these ‘regional commands’ were small groups of people with many personal connections to each other. nableezy - 07:17, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Current sources

These are the sources currently used in the article

1. Sela, not a problem
2. http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Totalitarianism-Hannah-Arendt/dp/0156701537; the source itself is not a problem, but the book does not once mention the words "pan-Arabism", "Arabism", or even "Arab nationalism", and no further information is given as to where in this book it supports the cited sentence, which is Pan-Arabism is considered to be the source and origin of political totalitarianism in the Middle East, suppressing democratic movements and development of open free thinking
3. http://www.archive.org/stream/originsoftotalit00aren#page/386/mode/2up/search/Arab+nationalism; this source is also used for the above sentence. The source not a huge problem either, just a tad outdated, but even then I see nothing in it that would support that sentence.
4. http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/134210; The last source for the above sentence. American Chronicle is not a reliable source, see here and here
5. http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm; this is used for It is also considered to encourage antisemitism against Jews, and is believed to have led to a rise of persecution of and attacks against Mizrahi Jews in Arabic speaking countries, which led to the disappearance of their community in Middle-Eastern countries other than Israel. The source itself could be used, but not as a statement of fact, but rather as the attributed opinion of the Magdi Allam. The only problem is that it makes the opposite point as the article. The source says

   In fact 'the Silent Exodus' testifies that anti-Semitism and the pogroms against the Jews of the Middle East preceded the birth of the state of Israel and the advent of ideological pan-Arabism and pan-Islamism. It infers that hatred and violence against the Jews could originate in an ideological interpretation of the Koran and the life of the prophet Muhammed taken out of context.

6. http://www.aina.org/martyr.html#1980%20to%201988; I dont know much about the reliability of this source, so I wont say whether I think it is or is not, but regardless of that, the source does not mention pan-Arabism at all, it discusses the Anfal campaign in Iraq. There needs to be a reliable secondary source relating the Anfal campaign to pan-Arabism for it not to be WP:SYNTH. This is not the place to document everything evil the Arabs have done.
7. http://www.fredaprim.com/who_assyrians.php; this is not a reliable source as a self-published website, but even if it were, what does it have to do with pan-Arabism?
8. http://www.christiansofiraq.com/whoisdriving-assyrians-outof-iraq.html; editorial piece originally from ankawa.com. Not a RS.
9. http://www.tau.ac.il/dayancenter/d&a-hamas-litvak.htm; this source is fine
10. http://www.elwatan.com/Congres-mondial-amazigh,74600; the source itself is not the issue, how it is used is. The article says that The pan-Arab ideology has been accused of racism, inciting prejudice against and downplaying the role of non-Arab peoples, then uses this article to source that the pan-Arab ideology has done this to Berbers. The article, as far as I can tell, says nothing about pan-Arab ideology. If I am wrong, please provide a quote and a translation from the article that does back up the statement.
11. http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/aFarrokhArab.html; This is a random website that does not meet the requirements of WP:RS.
12. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=2092l FrontPageMag, not a reliable source, see ( here, here, here, here)
13. Raymond A. Hinnebusch, Anoushiravan Ehteshami, The Foreign Policies of Middle East States. Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2002. pg 169; The source itself is fine, but again, how it used here is questionable. Nowhere does it say that it has incited prejudice against Kurds, it does however tell us how the Kurds felt about calling Iraq an Arab nation and how the Sunnis and Shias felt about pan-Arabism in general (and the source also makes clear that pan-Arabism is a secular ideology). Can somebody explain how the source cited supports the sentence in the article?
14. http://www.dailyalert.org/archive/2008-03/2008-03-14.html; an opinion piece which is given too much weight. We can include what he says but we dont need to dedicate that much for a quote of it.
15. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/world/africa/02iht-iraq.4.18336463.html?_r=1; The source is fine, but there is absolutely no reason to include what al-Majid said before he was executed, it has nothing to do with pan-Arabism. You want to put this in the article on him go ahead, but here it serves no purpose.
16. http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/chemical-ali-sentenced-to-death/2008/12/03/1227980048820.html; same as above, has nothing to do with this article
17. http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/stories.asp?id=226; this barely touches on pan-Arabism, it does talk about a "militantly racist pan-Arab organization". That does not mean that pan-Arabism is militantly racist, it means that a pan-Arab group is.
18. http://worldsavvy.org/monitor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=88; this source is plagiarized from in the article
19. http://www.afroarticles.com/article-dashboard/Article/Anti-Eritrean-Paroxysm--Origins--Dimensions--Applications/201646; website that anybody can publish at, effectively self-published so not a RS
20. http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article26679; op-ed
21. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W5V-4FH0WD8-9&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F01%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d6127e8971d2b1c32d80971a14ff7859; just an abstract to the next source
22. http://www.fpri.org/orbis/4902/davis.historymattersiraq.pdf; this source is plagiarized from in the article. And one line from a source that largely makes a different point is cherry-picked to present a distorted view.
23. http://books.google.com/books?id=NLiFIEdI1V4C&pg=PA352#v=onepage&q=&f=false; this source is fine, the only problem is that it does not discuss pan-Arabism. Please provide a quote from the book that backs the sentence in the article
24. http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/aFarrokhArab.html; discussed above, random website that does not meet WP:RS
25. http://yalepress.yale.edu/Yupbooks/reviews.asp?isbn=9780300145793; the source is fine, but misrepresented. See above

    The next four sources are referencing the following sentences

    Beginning at 1933, Muhi al-Din Nasuli, the leader of the Islamist and Pan-Arabist group "Najjada" (Helpers) in Syria and Lebanon, promoted many of Hitler's speeches and printed excerpts from Hitler's Mein Kampf in his group's newspaper. Hitler and Mussolini were viewed by Pan-Arabists in both Syria and Lebanon as models of strong state builders. The ambivalent relation of such Pan-Arabist concepts to ethnocentric and racial nationalism became visible in Nasuli's newspaper slogan Arabism Above All, which featured on his newspaper's masthead, which also printed glowing accounts of German youth's support of Hitler

26. http://books.google.com/books?id=iAWBkDAv4TkC&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=&f=false; this source is fine, but plagiarized from and missing some information that qualifies what it does support. The source says the following

    Najjada adopted a pan-Arab nationalist vision, calling for a suppression of all foreign influences. The ambivalent relation of such pan-Arab concepts to ethnocentric and racial nationalism became visible in its slogan 'Arabism above all'... This phrase, which also featured in the header of the newspaper Bayrut, was obviously reminiscent of the German slogan 'Germany above all'. In the case of Najjada, however, it was not that the Arab people were to be above all others; instead, what was intended here was the supremacy of Arab loyalty to the nation over and above other loyalties to religion and class.

    The bit in the source about the group's pan-Arabism not being about Arabs being superior to others but rather Arabs first loyalty should be to the nation and not religion is, not surprisingly, not included.
27. http://books.google.com/books?id=IYfQlOu0g38C&pg=PA193#v=onepage&q=&f=false;
28. Colonial Citizens By Elizabeth Thompson p. 193; this source is actually the same as the source immediately above this
29. http://www.ciaonet.org/book/the01/the01_11.pdf; this is not a valid citation, but the source behind this, if you either have access to Columbia International Affairs Online, you can find that this is actually Chapter 11 of the same book as the previous two sources (the chapter as the previous page cited twice is in). What we have here is 1 source being cited three different times for the same sentence in a way that makes it appear as though there are actually 3 distinct sources here. This is very dishonest.

    The next 2 sources are used for the following sentence:

    Adolf Hitler's collaborator and close Arab confidant, the Islamic leader and Mufti al-Husayni, was promoted as a Pan-Arabist leader by the Nazis who both found sympathy in each other's ideologies.

30. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007665; this source is not bad, but for such topics there are thousands of better sources. But regardless of that, nothing in the source supports the sentence.
31. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html; unreliable random website
32. Jankowski, James. "Egypt and Early Arab Nationalism" in Rashid Khalidi, ed. The Origins of Arab Nationalism. New York: Columbia University Press, 1990, pp. 244-45; the source itself is fine
33. qtd in Dawisha, Adeed. Arab Nationalism in the Twentieth Century. Princeton University Press. 2003, p. 99; this source is fine, but there is a lot of information in it that is conveniently left out, presenting a very skewed view of what it actually says
34. Deighton, H. S. "The Arab Middle East and the Modern World", International Affairs, vol. xxii, no. 4 (October 1946), p. 519.; this source is fine
35. Makropoulou, Ifigenia. Pan - Arabism: What Destroyed the Ideology of Arab Nationalism?. Hellenic Center for European Studies. January 15, 2007.; I cant verify the source, but Ill assume it is fine, and either way the material cited is not really contentious
36. "United Arab Republic (UAR)." Sela. The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East. 873-874.; this source is fine
37. Dawisha, p. 237l fine
38. Dawisha, pp. 264-65, 267; fine
39. http://kuwait-embassy.or.jp/E_outline_09.shtml; Should not be attributed as "some Kuwaitis", but rather as the opinion of the Kuwaiti government, but fine for their opinion
40. "Genocide in Iraq - The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds"; this is a HRW report. The source itself is fine, but it severely misrepresented in the text.
41. http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/aFarrokhArab.html; unreliable random website
42. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/mar/05/apalershadeofblack; opinion piece, not a reliable source for anything besides the opinion of the author
43. http://www.jcpa.org/; this is not even a source, it is the homepage of the organization
44. http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/2/3/3/5/p23357_index.html; nothing in the website says anything about what the source is supposedly referencing.
45. http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1284.htm; translation of an opinion piece, reliable only for the opinion of the author
46. http://97.74.65.51/Printable.aspx?ArtId=11187; frontpagemag, unreliable source
47. http://www.meforum.org/518/requiem-for-arab-nationalism; the source itself is fine, except for the fact that nowhere in the article does Dawisha actually write """Pan-Arabism at its inception was deeply influenced by European fascism". In fact the word "fascism" does not appear once in the entire article. I can tell where this falsehood can be found, at an article at campus-watch (one of the many reasons campus watch is unreliable, they often make stuff up).
48. http://www.almasry-alyoum.com/article2.aspx?ArticleID=61604; the source itself is fine for describing what a few random Egyptians think, but it is undue weight for us to include the opinions of a few random Egyptians at a bus station.
49. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iB6u3XEMp9IrJfl-kH6FHNgZCg_A; the source itself is fine, but it has nothing to do with pan-Arabism.
50. http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/cfsi-icse/cil-cai/magazine/v03n01/1-2-eng.asp; opinion of one person, no need to list people who oppose the idea that Egyptians are Arabs. This article is not about whether or not Egyptians are in fact Arabs.
51. http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/031106/2003110624.html; same as above
52. http://www.arab.net/egypt/et_people.htm; not a source for anything at all
53. http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/web_exclusives/more/more_letters/letters_bernardlewis.html; letters from people to a paper, not reliable source
54. http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/050117-cohen-josephsseed.php; random opinion column, not a reliable source
55. Haeri, Niloofar. Sacred language, Ordinary People: Dilemmas of Culture and Politics in Egypt. New York: Palgrave Macmillan. 2003, pp. 47, 136.; The quoted section, assuming it is accurate, does not mention anything about pan-Arabism
56. http://www.north-of-africa.com/article.php3?id_article=403; open letter, opinion of one person, only reliable for the opinion of that person

Finally, there is another issue that I have found while looking all this up. Many of the sources here are culled from another website, a blog entitled "Arabism = Racism!". This is not a blog, this is an encyclopedia. If you have any intention of actually following the policies of this encyclopedia, you cannot just string together whatever google or some blog tells you. You need to examine the issue, not just focus in on one phrase you can plug into google and pluck random websites that support your preconceived notions. nableezy - 01:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

- One of the crappy excuses youkeep repeatedly give is that "it has nothing to do..."

9# http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/world/africa/02iht-iraq.4.18336463.html?_r=1; YOU SAID: The source is fine, but there is absolutely no reason to include what al-Majid said before he was executed, it has nothing to do with pan-Arabism. You want to put this in the article on him go ahead, but here it serves no purpose. http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/chemical-ali-sentenced-to-death/2008/12/03/1227980048820.html; same as above, has nothing to do with this article)
While it was HE, (his co-defendant of the anti-Kurd chemical racist attacker) who said that he's proud to go to die for the sake of ARABISM, that's more enough for everyone to hear, or are we not talking about Arabism & walking-tall "proud" Arabism's racism on minorities here? His/Saddam Arabism is VERY much relative.

- Re what you "agreed" that it's a RS, but asked to quoter pan-Arabism from the book: [17] Sami Shawkat & the Futuwa fascist ideology, "Arab nationalism", the Futuwa is pan-arab party (see also further the NYTimes titling Futuwwa as 'Pan-Arab'). And here's from that book on page 515: the Libyan dictatorship of Mu'ammar al-Gadhafi is a fanatical Muslim... what began as a military regime has been converted into a charismatic dictatorship... The regime is based on Islamic puritanism... "Brother Colonel"... preaching pan-Arabism... while his interest in militarism, violence... (pg. 516) Aspects of all this are somewhat reminiscent of fascism,
there, asides from the fascism part, you have again the chance to see the Islamic "taste" into pan-Arabism if you wish. Here's more from the NYTimes on the pan-Arab (Muslim) Futuwwa fascist party: One of the Muslim variations... the model of the Hitler Youth for the pan-Arabist Futuwwa Youth of the 1930's, which, Mr. Makiya pointed out, pioneered a paramilitary culture "as if presaging the Baath militas" in later years.[18] (cited above).

- # http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article26679; YOU SAID: op-ed
Yes,it's an op-ed, does one diasgree with it?

- # http://www.fpri.org/orbis/4902/davis.historymattersiraq.pdf; YOU SAID: this source is plagiarized
Did you follow their copyright agreements? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toothie3 (talk • contribs)

For the NYT, his being proud of Arabism has nothing to do with pan-Arabism itself, you can put that in the article on the person. And a pan-Arab organization or person saying or doing something does not mean it has anything to dow ith pan-Arabism. You cant just connect these things and put forward an argument. And again, op-eds are only reliable for the opinion of the writer, not for statements of fact. nableezy - 14:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with nableezy here, his analysis above of the sources used is accurate & would recommend the unreliable ones be replaced or statements supported by them removed. In a controversial subject like this ideally sources should be high quality academic. op-eds & partisan websites don't cut it. --Glumboot (talk) 15:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Pan-Arab group: 'Futuwa,' its Hitlerism, totalitarianism, Islam theme

• Historical dictionary of Iraq - by Edmund Ghareeb, Beth Dougherty - 2004 - History - 459 pages (scarecrow press), page 220

SHAWKAT, SAMI... He was quite influential in the later part of the 1930s as a strong pan-Arab nationalist. He established al-Futuwa, an ultranationalist youth group. [19]

• "Alienation or integration of Arab youth: between family, state and street" by Roel Meijer - 2000 - Social Science - 223 pages (published by Routledge), page 61:

The al-Muthanna Club, a government supported forum for pan-Arab activists, consisting of both young officers and leading educators, was established at about the same time, in early 1935. The reformation conducted by the Ministry of Education in October 1935, together with the army's establishment of the Al-Futuwa youth movement in 1931, combined to create a full fledged paramilitary organization under the command of the Ministry's general director, Dr. Sami Shawkat, which imitated the Hitler Juend [20]

(p. 65) the temporary, bloody victory by the rural Palestinians seems to have left its mark on the later history of pan-Arabism. The literature of pan-Arabism produced in the 1930s was also based on the premise that Islam was a major historical pillar of Arab identity, and should be promoted as such [21]

• Although Saddam never acknowledged the training of a youth brigade, he has, in several past speeches, spoken admiringly of the Hitler Youth. It is widely believed that he belonged to the Futuwa, a paramilitary youth organisation which was modelled on the Hitler Youth and was formed in Baghdad in the late 1950s. [22]

• The Axis and the Arab Middle East: 1930-1945 (Author Robert Lewis Melka, Publisher Univ. of Minnesota., 1966) [23] page 62

Besides espousing a fanatic Pan-Arabism, the Futuwwa adopted a frankly totalitarian ideology

• Fascism and Antisemitism (1933–1941)

... At that time the press drew a clear dividing line between Judaism and Zionism. This line became blurred in the 1930s, along with the demand to remove Jews from the genealogical tree of the Semitic peoples. This anti-Jewish trend coincided with Faysal's death in 1933, which brought about a noticeable change for the Jewish community. His death also came at the same time as the Assyrian massacre, which created a climate of insecurity among the minorities. Iraqi Jewry at that time had been subject to threats and invectives emanating not only from extremist elements, but also from official state institutions as well. Dr. Sāmī Shawkat, a high official in the Ministry of Education in the pre-war years and for a while its director general, was the head of "al-Futuwwa," an imitation of Hitler's Youth. In one of his addresses, "The Profession of Death," he called on Iraqi youth to adopt the way of life of Nazi Fascists. In another speech he branded the Jews as the enemy from within, who should be treated accordingly. In another, he praised Hitler and Mussolini for eradicating their internal enemies (the Jews). Syrian and Palestinian teachers often supported Shawkat in his preaching. [24]

• (Justice for Jews from Arab countries) Now, there are only about 5,000 Jews remaining in Arab lands, one half of one percent of their number at the end of World War II when there were about 900,000 Jews living in Arab countries.

Today, these Jews have been ethnically cleansed from the Arab world. To understand why the Jews of Arab lands left en masse in a relatively brief period... the Jewish community of Iraq spanned over 2,500 years... propaganda under the direction of Dr. Fritz Gobba. Second, the Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseni and his entourage, which accompanied him to Iraq, in 1940. The report states “Once he was firmly established, he began disseminating Nazi propaganda with great cunning, while decrying the injustice done to Palestine and under the guise of Pan-Arabism and the Islamic religion.” Third, the Palestinian and Syrian schoolteachers, installed in every school, which “poisoned the pupils minds and turned them into instruments of their propaganda. Wheneverthey perceived that the government was taking any steps against Nazism, they went into action, arousing the students who would then go out in demonstrations and issue harmful manifestos.” The new government expelled these teachers. Fourth, the German Arabic-Language Radio Station, which also spread Nazi propaganda and had an increased effect after Rashid Ali made it legal to listen to. Fifth, the Iraqi Broadcasting Station, which over the two months Rashid Aliwas in control, “broadcast false reports about misdeeds in Palestine. The broadcasts contained patently inflammatory agitation against Jews and powerful appeals to Nazism.” Sixth, the Futuwwa and Youth Phalanxes, both were pro-Nazi paramilitary groups and participated heavily in the Farhud. [25]

Some of this could be used, some of it is from unreliable sources, and some of it has absolutely nothing to do with pan-Arabism. nableezy - 14:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

See: Importance of connection at Pan Arabism's Michel Aflaq to 'superior Arab race' theory, His Islam theme, Nasser's nazi alliance