Talk:Papua New Guinea national soccer team

Weakest... Real ?

What's the reason for lowest position of Papua on FIFA World Rankings (situation as of 2009) ? I understand 203th place for Anguilla, Montserrat, American Samoa, i also can understand it for San Marino... But Papua ? It's real not the weakest FIFA team. Is it due to the reason that PNG was disqualified for 2010 World Cup ? --79.49.34.93 (talk) 14:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Mistaken identity

Lol, Papua's most capped played "Richard Daniel" redirects to a German general...doesn't seem very likely. Oleg Morgan 14:43, 25 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.39.242 (talk)

I agree that it is unlikely that he moonlighted as a German general.:-) Nice catch. Now fixed. TerriersFan (talk) 14:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:PNGFA Logo.svg

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-- Marchjuly (talk) 02:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 17 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 15:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

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Papua New Guinea national football team → Papua New Guinea national soccer team – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. 207.136.8.135 (talk) 11:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC) The sport, like in Australia, is called "soccer" in Papua New Guinea; the Tok Pisin name for the sport is "soka" and the Australian, South African, Canadian and American teams are all called "X national soccer team". Possibly the same for New Zealand, Fiji, the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, etc which also call it "soccer". 207.136.8.135 (talk) 11:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - I honestly don't know what they call association football in Papua New Guinea but, without evidence of reliable sources, I can't support this move. If you can provide reliable sources which show soccer is the name used in Papua New Guinea, I'll happily remove my objection. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Stevie fae Scotland: I'll look for some. I know this is the name in PNG (and in the local Tok Pisin language). Plus, the Papua New Guinea National Soccer League is the country's soccer league, like how Australia had the National Soccer League before the A-League. Australia still calls it soccer too, hence why the pages are called Australia men's national soccer team and Australia women's national soccer team. 207.136.8.135 (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  Edit: Sources for Tok Pisin name: www.tok-pisin.com/define.php?english=soccer&id=MTcyMg%3D%3D, www.tokpisin.info/soccer/, etc. Plus a citation from a book called Brilliant Maps, which states this on the page about names for soccer/football. There is also a Facebook group called "Soka PNG" (Soka Papua Niugini), about soccer in PNG. 207.136.8.135 (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:58, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - the standard naming is 'X national football team' and there are no sources to justify a move away from that. GiantSnowman 12:00, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Afghanistan national football team which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 23 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved, in part. There is a consensus to change "football" to "soccer". There is no consensus to add "men's", but there is also no prejudice to a separate nomination on this basis. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 16:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

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1. Papua New Guinea national football team → Papua New Guinea men's national soccer team
2. Papua New Guinea women's national football team → Papua New Guinea women's national soccer team
3. Football in Papua New Guinea → Soccer in Papua New Guinea
4. Papua New Guinea national football team results → Papua New Guinea men's national soccer team results
5. Papua New Guinea national under-23 football team → Papua New Guinea men's national under-23 soccer team
6. Papua New Guinea national under-20 football team → Papua New Guinea men's national under-20 soccer team
7. Papua New Guinea national under-17 football team → Papua New Guinea men's national under-17 soccer team
8. Papua New Guinea women's national under-20 football team → Papua New Guinea women's national under-20 soccer team
9. Papua New Guinea women's national under-17 football team → Papua New Guinea women's national under-17 soccer team
10. List of football clubs in Papua New Guinea → List of soccer clubs in Papua New Guinea

Due to Australian influence, the term "soccer" is much more common in PNG than "football" due to the presence of other codes of football. Furthermore, PNG's rugby and Australian rules football sides are much more successful than their soccer sides. PNG's national soccer league is even called the Papua New Guinea National Soccer League, and in Tok Pisin soka means "soccer". I propose that all articles about soccer in PNG be moved to say "soccer" not "football" unless they're officially named as such (e.g Papua New Guinea Football Association). I also propose that a similar policy to WP:MOSFIA (i.e terminology for football codes in Australia, one of which is "soccer") be adopted for Papua New Guinea. QLDer in NSW (talk) 20:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BD2412 T 01:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 00:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Note: Moves #5 through #10 were added at 01:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC) by Matilda Maniac. I have combined those into the RM, since that addition seems acceptable to the nominator and non-controversial. SilverLocust 💬 04:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Added "men's" to youth team titles to match United States men's national under-17 soccer team, etc. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 18:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: you can leave the "men's" out if you like, but I should point out that PNG's women's soccer side is much more likely to make the FIFA Women's World Cup than the men's soccer side is to make the FIFA World Cup based on FIFA rankings. But on the other hand, men's sport is much more popular in PNG than women's sport is. QLDer in NSW (talk) 20:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support I was initially but unsure the PNG Post Courier uses soccer rather than football (obvious exception for the national association name). Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, but without "men's". Given the recent discussions linked above on the Afghanistan page, "men's" should not be included. O.N.R. ^(talk) 04:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, but without "men's". agree on soccer vs football. But no consensus to mass add men's to articles, as per recent mass AFD. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:16, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

  Comment The recent mass RM found there was no consensus to add men's to all men's national team articles, it does not prejudice individual re-nominations. There is a reasoned debate to have on this subject, particularly as the nom points out that the PNG women's team is potentially more notable than the men's team, so I would welcome other editors to bring forward their views. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 09:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

  I didn't say more notable, I said more likely to make a World Cup (based on FIFA rankings). I don't really care if men's is included or not but I'm putting up for discussion. QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:05, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  Comment: Nothing in the nomination rationale is about adding men's or not, it's all about football vs soccer. There's not a consensus to mass move, and so the addition of men's would need a clear rationale and consensus on why it's correct, which isn't done here. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, but without "men's", men's team still PRIMARY for this country at least.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, but without "men's", The current policy of WP:MOSFIA should also apply to Papua New Guinea, for the same reason. But no current consensus to mass add men's to male team articles. Matilda Maniac (talk) 00:51, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  Comment: As an aside, I note that last year there was creation of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Football in Papua New Guinea), but I don't consider that it needs its own stand-alone policy article. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  It looks like it was exactly copied from WP:MOSFIA. QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  Comment: fixed a typo in @Matilda Maniac's comment (curent ——> current). QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per reasoning. For the men’s, the women’s team has received more news coverage from major sources such as The Guardian Yoblyblob (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 15:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, but without "men's" as above, that remains the PRIMARY. GiantSnowman 15:16, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support as nominated - The mass-RM has no prejudice on this discussion, and all claims that the men's team is PRIMARY are not providing any evidence of this. Statements that there is no consensus on adding "men's" or not do not have weight in my view because that is what this discussion is aiming to reach consensus on. Fair enough that initial RM statement didn't provide evidence for the men's/women's piece, but it developed slightly as the discussion progressed with Yoblyblob. In my own search, Google news coverage seems evenly split through the first three pages, and the cases referring to the women's team more often than not simply say the country name without a women's qualifier. This suggests to me that the country team is ambiguous. Though I support including men's/women's in the move, my !vote should not be taken as opposing any other moves because a football → soccer only move is still good per the nom since one step in that direction is better than none. -2pou (talk) 20:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support as nominated. It isn't appropriate to use men's in all cases, as determined by the failed RM... but per the nomination, in this case the women's team is actually relatively better than the men's on the global stage, and there is significant coverage about it specifically, such as the Guardian article. Hence it's appropriate to use men's in this instance.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support all per nom and Amakuru. Search results are clearly mixed. Marginal question: Why is "clubs" used instead of "teams" in titles like List of soccer clubs in the United States? Hameltion (talk | contribs) 05:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

  Soccer teams are called clubs as like a whole organisation. For example, Sydney FC (FC = Football Club) is a men's soccer club in Australia and Sydney FC (A-League Women) is a women's soccer club in Australia; both are part of Sydney FC. However, national teams are called teams (e.g the Socceroos are the Australia men's national soccer team and the Matildas are the Australia women's national soccer team). Even soccer clubs in the US are called "clubs".

  It's like this is a lot of sports, not just soccer, but in fact most sports other than the main American sports (by "American sports" I mean American football, baseball and basketball, which call them "teams", in fact basketball teams in Australia are also called "teams"). It's just terminology and (assuming you're an American) I can see why you're asking this question. QLDer in NSW (talk) 20:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, ENGVAR was the point of the question. Usage of "club" vs "team" for club soccer teams (:P) in the United States seems to be fairly mixed. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 21:39, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support, but without "men's" - Per above. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 13:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Clear consensus to change "football" to "soccer". However, there is no consensus on whether "men's" should also be added; relisting to allow that question to be considered directly. BilledMammal (talk) 00:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support, but without "men's". Rreagan007 (talk) 03:14, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support - Men's is one of the most important details to have in the title. We have no idea which team you're talking about without it. It breaks Wikipedia rules on precision to leave men's out of the title. People have constantly been asking for men's to be added to all national football teams, because it is a huge pain trying to navigate Wikipedia not knowing what the subject of the article is. It really needs to be done by now. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 04:29, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support “soccer” per nomination; Neutral on “men's” — HTGS (talk) 23:15, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support - using men's and women's is the simplest form of disambiguation. In this case the PNG women's team is potentially more notable given its success compared to the men's team. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment based on the relist comment: I'm still curious to see a policy-/evidence-based rationale for omitting "men's". After the initial comments/!votes were made, evidence has since been offered that the men's is not clearly the PRIMARYTOPIC for this nation, and some evidence shows that the base COMMONNAME applies to both the men's and women's squads, making the base title ambiguous. (I've already voiced my support for including "men's" when appropriate above, and my !vote remains the same for now unless some additional rationale is provided to sway me.) -2pou (talk) 17:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose both - "Soccer" is a pejorative diminutive coined by English former Public School pupils in the 19th C - as pointed out by Richard Sanders in "Beastly Fury". (https://www.penguin.com.au/books/beastly-fury-9781446421307). They used the term to snobbishly denigrate the code of Association football which was the game of the working classes. Soccer is not the proper English language name for the sport of Association football. The rationales used here would see all Australian Rules articles changed to reflect the fact that at least some of the time most aficionados refer to the sport as "footie". Silent Billy (talk) 01:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

  "Footy" is an Aussie slang term for Aussie rules and rugby. "Soccer" is not considered a slang term in many countries. For example, in Australia, "soccer" is the actual name of the sport that is called "football" in, for example, the UK. QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Implications from changing article names from football to soccer in the recent move

Now that consensus on Support has been gained and the articles moved, what happens now about their associated categories and templates, which to me are in exactly the same boat? Looking at the equivalent categories for Australia, which is more formally under a naming policy in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Football in Australia), those such categories are also 'soccer' not 'football'. Can these be simply moved at this point (as the articles relating to that category have just been changed), or do they need the same process applied from scratch?

• Category:Papua New Guinea national football team
• Category:Papua New Guinea men's international footballers
• Category:Papua New Guinea national football team managers
• Category:Papua New Guinea national football team matches
• Category:Papua New Guinea national football team results
• Category:Papua New Guinea national football team navigational boxes
• Category:Papua New Guinea women's national football team navigational boxes

• Template:Papua New Guinea national football team managers
• Template:Papua New Guinea national football team
• Template:Football in Papua New Guinea

Matilda Maniac (talk) 12:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I've nominated a couple of categories for deletion, as they only have one article in them. The other categories I've requested to be moved through the Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy process (the process waits 48 hours to check nobody objects, and then they get done). I'll move all the templates later. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

And I've now moved all the templates too. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

My next question is on the draft/proposed policy article that was created last year (WP:Naming conventions (Football in Papua New Guinea)), but I don't consider that it needs its own stand-alone policy article. Can it not get merged into the equivalent Australian policy article WP:MOSFIA, or at least the latter modified to recognise that Soccer is preferred to Football for this country on the English version of Wikipedia? I think that might help the reduction of edits and arguments changing one to the other, that I've seen repeatedly over several years on Australian insert-sport-here articles. Matilda Maniac (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2023 (UTC)