Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 21

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Archive 21

Pre-Islamic Period

User Xerxes931 keeps on removing information on the Hindu and Buddhist dominance in Pashtunistan. And allows only a one-sided promotion of a Zoroastrian narrative, I think admins should make sure that this page only presents factual and not one-sided political/religious view points - given that it relates to an ethnicity of over 70 million people. The Information was backed with 4 citation and yet [User:Xerxes931|Xerxes931]] deleted. I quote the information being deleted:

With Hinduism and Buddhism the likely dominant  religions in the Pashtun areas. 

References I used for the line:

Admins please share your adjudication on the matter PashtoPromoter (talk) 13:08, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Could you please just be patient and take back your accusations? I am not done with the section yet and as you were writing this I am adding more to Buddhism. Also the Pashtun regions being "predominately Hindu" is simply WP:OR, your very own interpretation of the sources and more importantly contradictory to basically all the sources, thanks.

--Xerxes931 (talk) 13:13, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

It is better to let an independent Admin to go through the sources and give their opinion - as quotes have been provided PashtoPromoter (talk) 13:40, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

None of your sources states the regions to have been "dominant Hinduism and Buddhism", one is a source about Music, not knowing how to properly spell "Pashtun" in English, another one is a blog by an Indian author on Al Jazeera... Despite them not even supporting your WP:OR statement, they do not outweigh the countless of actual historic sources that have been added. Hinduism is already mentioned among the many religions of Pre-Islamic Afghanistan and the position of Buddhism as well, thus your statement is completely irrelevant and as mentioned simply your own POV.--Xerxes931 (talk) 13:51, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I have provided a quotation dealing with your concern: "During the 8th and 9th centuries AD the eastern terroritries of modern Afghanistan were still in the hands of non-Muslim rulers. The Muslims tended to regard them as Indians (Hindus), although many of the local rulers and people were apparently of Hunnic or Turkic descent. Yet, the Muslims were right in so far as the non-Muslim population of eastern Afghanistan was, culturally linked to the Indian sub-continent. Most of them were either Hindus or Buddhists."— Willem Vogelsang, The Afghans; Source: https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=9kfJ6MlMsJQC&dq

PashtoPromoter (talk) 13:55, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

User:PashtoPromoter There is nothing wrong with this source you used[1], in fact its the only proper source you have brought up thus far, however you have to keep in mind that it specifies on Eastern Afghanistan, which was at that time not majority Pashtun yet, furthermore the quote messes up the whole section, every source I have added has a Quote, but in the reference, not in the article, I will install the content you have added from Vogelsang as a sentence for Eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar(Gandhara), mention that it was majority Hindu and Buddhist, and add the quote into the citation as its done for all quotes in the section, this should do its job , are you okay with that ?--Xerxes931 (talk) 13:59, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

NO. I disagree with your interpretation. Let admins decide PashtoPromoter (talk) 14:12, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Thats not my interpretation, its quiet literally what your own source says and in line with the set up in the rest of the section. --Xerxes931 (talk) 14:23, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

User:PashtoPromoter should refrain from POV pushing in this article. The sources you provided in regards to the religion of Eastern Afghanistan and North-West Pakistan does not support the case for either of them being the predominant religion of Pashtuns in the past due to the fact that the contemporary region of Pakhtunkhwa/Pashtunistan does not correspond with the abode of Pashtuns in the past. In Gandhara, the Indic language of Prakrit was spoken which is obviously neither Pashto nor Eastern Iranic in general. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that the peoples of the region were not only predominantly Pashtun but the region was an integral part to their homeland. If you must, edit the Pashtunistan article but your edits don't have much relevance to the Pashtuns article. Foxhound03 (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. I state the following in support

According to historian Ramesh Chandra Majumdar states:

"The Mauryas exercised effective rule over the whole of Afghanistan and Baluchistan, and both Buddhism and Brahmanism had a strong influence over the whole area until the advent of Islam."

— Majumdar, The History and Culture of the Indian People, Colonial and Cultural Expansion, Section I. Afghanistan

PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. And the following:Willem Vogelsang notes:

"During the 8th and 9th centuries AD the eastern terroritries of modern Afghanistan were still in the hands of non-Muslim rulers. The Muslims tended to regard them as Indians (Hindus), although many of the local rulers and people were apparently of Hunnic or Turkic descent. Yet, the Muslims were right in so far as the non-Muslim population of eastern Afghanistan was, culturally linked to the Indian sub-continent. Most of them were either Hindus or Buddhists."

— Willem Vogelsang, The Afghans

Yeah the first source is an Indian author, skip. Second source is authentic, but as mentioned it talks about the historic region of Gandhara(Eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar), it doesn’t even talk about Pashtuns specifically as the region was not even inhabited by Pashtuns during that period, but let’s ignore that for now. The source is in no way a basis for saying “The majority of Pashtuns used to be followers of Hinduism and Buddhism” which is what you are trying to add, however it can be used as a basis to say the historic region of Gandhara used to be primarily Hindu and Buddhist, I’ve suggested this to come to approach towards you for a solution which covers both interests in a neutral way, but for whatever reason you vehemently opposed that suggestion. Xerxes931 (talk) 15:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. "Yeah the first source is an Indian author, skip. " That is racism - being an Indian author has no bearing on historicity. Ramesh Chandra Majumdar is a respected historian PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. I further draw your attention to Olaf Caroe in the Pathans at page 101 who mentions the same point PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. I also draw you attention to Hada, Afghanistan archeological finds

   

   Labit - Buddah méditant - Hadda Afghanistan - Art gréco-bouddhique D 69 2

   PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. In reality if you see the sources pointed out by Xerxes931 you will see they need proofing but I still havent removed them PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

1. Please add these quotes as Xerxes931 himself agrees with the quote, and I quote him: "There is nothing wrong with this source you used[2], in fact its the only proper source you have brought up thus far, however you have to keep in mind that it specifies on Eastern Afghanistan, which was at that time not majority Pashtun yet, " Yet as you, Foxhound03, will see no academic source has been provided by Xerxes931 to show that "Eastern Afghanistan, which was at that time not majority Pashtun yet". Yet you believed him and removed the quote from the book PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Eastern Afghanistan/Gandhara being non Pashtun, but majority Indo-Aryan as Foxhound03 already mentioned, during that period should be basic knowledge, especially for someone calling himself “PashtoPromoter”, I am not here to teach anyone about history. Look, just because you call yourself “PashtoPromoter” and do Null edits on Pashto culture and language and set your VPN on a Pashtun region in Pakistan it does not mean that you can just do whatever edits you want to on Pashtuns. And you are again completely ignoring my approaches to find consensus. So to make it simpel: again about your sources: It does not prove your point. We are talking specifically about Pashtuns and the sources need to specify that Pashtuns were dominantly Buddhist and Hindu. Which none of them do. While mine focus on generally acknowledged historical Pashtun homeland like Arachosia or generally accepted ancestors of Pashtun subgroups(Khalaj). If you are really so determined about having Eastern Afghanistan mentioned as majority Hindu or Buddhist, you can either agree to my approach of adding Gandhara being Buddhist and Hindu in this article or otherwise stick to Muslim conquests of Afghanistan and don’t specify on Pashtuns Xerxes931 (talk) 15:58, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

You are quiet literally ignoring everything I have said and throw around with random accusations, no one is disregarding any source here and neither is anyone implying any population to be “only Zoroastrian” the content I have added clearly elaborates on Buddhism, Iranian Paganism, Zoroastrianism being among the dominant religions in the region alongside Hinduism. There is literally no point in discussing with you. Xerxes931 (talk) 16:25, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I think we should discuss: you conted that Pashtunistan [East Afghanistan] was primarily Zoroastrain. I argue that although Zoroastrianism was prominent in Kandahar but the main religion in East Afghanistan was Buddhism and Hinduism during the Islamic conquests. Let third party Wikipedian admins decide the matter PashtoPromoter (talk) 16:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

THE ACCUSATIONS ARE GOING WAY TOO FAR NOW, I have ****NEVER**** said Eastern Afghanistan was Zoroastrian, in fact I even suggested to have Eastern Afghanistan(Gandhara) added as primarily Hindu and Buddhist in the section[3][4]but you vehemently disagreed and wanted to have ALL Pashtun regions to be mentioned as majority Hindu and Buddhist.[5] Xerxes931 (talk) 16:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)PashtoPromoter ~ you have said three or four times that you want admins to decide the content. No, that's not what admins do: Very specifically, they do not determine content, other than as editors. The tools they have are to maintain the stability of the encyclopaedia, to prevent abuse by editors, and to support all of us in improving the work. So, please understand that it is by discussion with Xerxes931 and others that this will be resolved, not by anyone running to an outside authority.

Second, i suggest you withdraw the RfC you have tried to start here: It is not worded even approximately neutrally, and you would be doing yourself no favours by leaving it open. Rather, without getting upset or appealing to admins, discuss what you want and what we have, rationally, trying to see the other point of view, and then the article can be improved.

Third, and this is a more minor point, can you please try and work with the standards of indentation and numbering we use ~ i'm finding it very hard to follow the discussion above, especially as there are about six paragraphs all labelled "1."! Thank you, happy days, Lindsay^Hello 16:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Lindsay sorry i am relatively new to Wikipedia. I rephrased the rfc to neutral term. The whole issue resolves around this one sentence: “ With Hinduism and Buddhism the likely dominant religions in the Pashtun areas” although I provided 4 citations and 2 book quotes in support. I cant keep on readding this information if the user deletes it without any justifiable reaoson PashtoPromoter (talk) 16:52, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes that’s exactly the issue, that sentence is your own WP:OR, a few of your sources are reliable but they do not mention anything about Pashtuns or every Pashtun region specifically, they simply talk about Eastern Afghanistan/Gandahra specifically, I have suggested you three times to add Gandhara being majority Hindu and Buddhist to the section and User:Foxhound03 indirectly agreed to this solution as well , but you did NOT AGREE and wanted to have all regions to be mentioned as majority Hindu and Buddhist, despite that being contradictory to the dozens of other sources being cited in the section and you keep on edit warring and reverting against more than 3 users for more than 4 times now in 24 hours. Xerxes931 (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Xerxes931 I have changed it from "Pashtun areas" to "Eastern Afghanistan and Gandhara" as you pointed out. Lindsay I have removed "rfc". I think the matter stands closed - as we have reached consensus; hopefully sourced edits wont be reverted PashtoPromoter (talk) 17:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

PashtoPromoter Thats better than before but still a mess, you would have to put the quote into the citation, like its done for any quote in the section, furterhmore Eastern Afghanistan compromises Gandhara, so there is no need to mention it both, just Gandhara is enough. And it needs to be logically arranged in the section as well. --Xerxes931 (talk) 21:11, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• PashtoPromoter's additions are well cited and there is no reason for Xerxes931 to remove them other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Saying "the first source is an Indian author, skip" is reflective of a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset. The sources are clear that Hinduism and Buddhism was practiced by the Pushtuns prior to Islam's arrival in the area. Zoroastrianism is being pushed here when the sources don't mention that the Pushtuns ever followed it. "Zunism" is not a separate religion either but the followers of Zun are Hindus. Either way, none of the sources mention it. Original quotes will need to be provided if the article is going to include Zoroastrianism. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 18:29, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Accusation after accusation, Indian authors are clearly biased when it comes to topics like that, wether you like that or not, Vogelsang is an authentic source on the other hand, PashtoPromoters initial addition was that “the majority of Pashtuns used to follow Hinduism and Buddhism” which was simply WP:OR ( just like your statement on Zunism is) based on Vogelsangs quote stating Eastern Afghanistan’s population to be mainly Hindu and Buddhist, which is not wrong, but does not apply to the whole region inhabited by Pashtuns, hence why there is sourced content for Pashtun regions like Arachosia, and ancestors of Pashtun subgroups like Khalaj of Kabul and Ghazna, added as well, so it’s NOT a “one sided Zoroastrian narrative” if anything other cults are emphasized much more than Zoroastrianism in the data I’ve added, the rest of your comment is simply ad hominem, so I think it’s better for you yourself if we leave it at that. This[6] version of PashtoPromoter is content and historic wise ***correct*** and *partially* going per our consensus, it’s just a few details that have to be talked up, like the quote being put into the citation, like it’s done for any quote in the section, plus there is no need to say “Eastern Afghanistan and Gandhara” as Eastern Afghanistan is in historic territory which Gandahra compromises. Those are the only things that are left to do, simply minor aesthetic edits, in terms of content the latest version of User:PashtoPromoter is fine as I already mentioned in my initial response to him. Xerxes931 (talk) 06:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Aman Kumar Goel thank you PashtoPromoter (talk) 06:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Calling Eastern Afghanistan, or the historic Gandahara, which was obviously a part of Greater India as we all know, Hindu is 100% correct, however we should be careful not to generalize because Afghanistan is not just Eastern Afghanistan or Gandhara as some people tend to think, there were many other religions in other satraps of the country as well. I have put the quote into the reference as suggested — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinoob2939 (talk • contribs) 07:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Persistant VANDALISM

1. There remains continued vandalism and removal of reference information: [7]
2. Another revert by new user per recommendation of Xerxes931 [8] and [9] PashtoPromoter (talk) 07:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

• Can someone editor please restore the information as I do not want to participate in editwaring PashtoPromoter (talk) 07:23, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

"revert" 12 and 13 are not reverts, its just something I deleted on accident and put in back again, for the others i have already made myself clear, they were edits which I thought you already already agreed on the talk page, I just added them.--Wikinoob2939 (talk) 07:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

User Pashtopromoter, from what it seems, is the sole propogator of a certain notion that for some reason or another is trying to overrepresent the presence of religions originating in the Indian subcontinent among the Pashtun population. It is not "vandalism" to address the dispute by returning the page to status quo before a consensus is reached, yet this user is determined to push a POV that not even the respective sources provided confirm. There are several problems with the sources and they've already been pointed to above, such as the fact that they are talking about a geographical region and a religion present therein, not about an ethnic group and the practiced religions by them. The sources provided are in no way able to carry the burden that Pashopromoter is imposing on them. I have stated my argument, but I still leave room to be proved wrong on this, which is why I reverted edits from both sides of the dispute until a consensus is reached, I suggest the same ethic is practiced by others here. شاه عباس (talk) 13:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

@شاه عباس - I tried to reach consensus on the point about geography and it changed from: "With Hinduism and Buddhism the likely dominant religions in the Pashtun areas." → to → "With Hinduism and Buddhism the likely dominant religions in Eastern Afghanistan and Gandhara." PashtoPromoter (talk) 14:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes I agree. PashtoPromoter is pushing his own POV. NE47NE (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

How is the first edit contribution on this account NE47NE attacking me ... hmmm PashtoPromoter (talk) 14:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

It's not OR. What is OR is you adding material like the Pushtuns being Zoroastrianism or followers of Zunism, whatever that is. Please supply the quotations from the sources that specifically say that the Pushtuns were Zoroastrian. If you can't do that, then that material ought to be removed from the article now. You must provide those or else the material about Zoroastrianism or Zunism does not meet WP:V. The edits of PashtoPromoter are correct. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 00:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Aman Kumar Goel it is okay they will not accept these changes. I have closed my requests here. Have opened up the following: Talk:Pashtuns#Changing_"Gandhara"_to_"Eastern_Afghanistan" and Talk:Pashtuns#Discussion Please contribute your insights there PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I am busy with life and some other things here. I will be assessing your sources and the rest of the discussion. You should read WP:NODEADLINE and forget about hurrying up with these edits. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 17:09, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Wikinoob2939 possible mirror account and vandalism

Can someone please check if this new account Wikinoob2939 is a mirror account of Xerxes931 as the new information I added to a completely different point altogether was reverted. This would be contrary to the decision of the admins that required consensus before reverts hence requiring a block. Help: Lindsay, EdJohnston and Aman Kumar Goel PashtoPromoter (talk) 07:06, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

my account is not "new" , its more than half a year old, just because someone does not agree with you it does not mean that they are a fake account--Wikinoob2939 (talk) 07:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Referenced Information removed

1. [10] - New information that was referenced by me with 3 citations was removed
2. [11] - Information already under discussion in the talkpage was removed/reverted contrary to admin warning
3. [12] - Information was reverted per the recommendations of Xerxes931 by the same new account doing the 2 previous reverts
4. [13] - Another edit on the same information under discussion in talkpage

The user Wikinoob2939 (possible mirror) removed the following referenced edits: With Hinduism and Buddhism the likely dominant religions in Eastern Afghanistan and Gandhara. Willem Vogelsang notes:

"During the 8th and 9th centuries AD the eastern terroritries of modern Afghanistan were still in the hands of non-Muslim rulers. The Muslims tended to regard them as Indians (Hindus), although many of the local rulers and people were apparently of Hunnic or Turkic descent. Yet, the Muslims were right in so far as the non-Muslim population of eastern Afghanistan was, culturally linked to the Indian sub-continent. Most of them were either Hindus or Buddhists."

— Willem Vogelsang, The Afghans

Robert L. Brown notes the presence of the Hindu god Ganesha idols in Afghanistan dating back to the 4th and 5th centuries AD.

References

PashtoPromoter (talk) 07:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Is removal of this information justifiable? PashtoPromoter (talk) 08:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

What??? I did not remove that quote or those sources, why are you lying? I have simply put that quote into the citation, it is still there just click on the citation, and I shortened/simplified the statement by "The region of Gandhara used to be dominantly Hindu and Buddhist" because all of this was suggested on the talk page and it seemed to me like you guys had agreed on it.--Wikinoob2939 (talk) 08:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

It is quite clear that the user "PashtoPromoter" has an agenda and is trying to push his POV. browising through the talk page, it seems others also hold this view(that PashoPromoter has an agenda is POV pushing.)Somthing should be done about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NE47NE (talk • contribs) 14:42, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

How is the first edit contribution on this account NE47NE attacking me ... hmmm PashtoPromoter (talk) 14:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Because I frequently read this page and occasionally browse through the talk. I have seen your constant POV pushing and felt compelled to create an account and agree with the others. I am not “attacking you”, neither am I an alternate account of the other users which disagreed with you. I am simply agreeing with the others: You are clearly pushing an agenda, and continue to do so even though others asked you to stop. NE47NE (talk) 15:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I have asked other editors to intervene with RFC tag and check the credibility of the reference citations + quotes - that is not pushing a POV PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

• I do no longer think it would be appropriated to add the sources - but rather the current information presented should be corrected. See below PashtoPromoter (talk) 07:02, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Changing "Gandhara" to "Eastern Afghanistan"

In the sub-section on Religion there is a sentence:

• The historic region of Gandhara used to be dominantly Hindu and Buddhist..

Proposition-this should be changed to:

• The historic region of Eastern Afghanistan used to be dominantly Hindu and Buddhist..

Reasons:

1. Nowhere in the citation which is used to justify this sentence is any mention made of "Gandhara" but "Eastern Afghanistan" is specifically mentioned:"During the 8th and 9th centuries AD the eastern terroritries of modern Afghanistan were still in the hands of non-Muslim rulers. The Muslims tended to regard them as Indians (Hindus), although many of the local rulers and people were apparently of Hunnic or Turkic descent. Yet, the Muslims were right in so far as the non-Muslim population of eastern Afghanistan was, culturally linked to the Indian sub-continent. Most of them were either Hindus or Buddhists..
2. The term Gandhara is misleading: it refers to a wide historical region [e.g Swat Valley, Chitral, Taxilla - all situated in present-day Pakistan] and an area that meant different boundries during different historical time periods [Vedic Gandhara, Achaemenid Gandhara etc] - all this information is outside the bounds of the citation relied upon
3. To bring harmony to the rest of the section: 1. region of Kandahar has been specifically identified with Arachosia ["The region of Arachosia, around Kandahar in modern day southern Afghanistan, used to be primarily Zoroastrian and played a key role in the transfer of the Avesta to Persia and is thus considered by some to be the "second homeland of Zoroastriansm"]. 2. The Ghilji have been identified with the Khalaj.

• In conclusion:It would be a display of grotesque bias if the word geographic term "Eastern Afghanistan" specifically mentioned in the quote was covered up with the misleading historical reference to Gandhara specifically when other geographic areas such as Kandahar have been mentioned by name

Should the following term "Gandhara" be changed to "Eastern Afghanistan" ? PashtoPromoter (talk) 05:01, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Comments

Editors are requested to put there comments here:

For changing

• For changing "Gandhara" to "Eastern Afghanistan":

For not changing

• For not changing "Gandhara" to "Eastern Afghanistan":

*Oppose Sorry, but you do realize this mention of "Eastern Afghanistan" refers to the actual eastern part of modern-day Afghanistan, and not Gandhara? This highly looks like WP:OR. I would suggest you showed reliable sources that calls the Gandhara region for "Eastern Afghanistan". --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:06, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, thank you for your comment. The source mentions Eastern Afghanistan - not Gandhara: "the non-Muslim population of eastern Afghanistan was, culturally linked to the Indian sub-continent. Most of them were either Hindus or Buddhists" PashtoPromoter (talk) 10:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran does crossing of you comment mean you support changing [if so please share your views above] or have you removed your participation in the discussion ? PashtoPromoter (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

It seems like I misunderstood your comment, hence why I crossed my comment. I initially thought you meant that we should refer Gandhara as eastern Afghanistan. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran thank you for taking the time to clarify PashtoPromoter (talk) 10:59, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Decision

Once the decision is made, please copy/paste into the box below

• For changing "Gandhara" to "Eastern Afghanistan" : Y
• For not changing "Gandhara" to "Eastern Afghanistan" : N

Decision of editor(s):...

PashtoPromoter (talk) 07:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Other

*What are you doing ? Sorry, but your behavior is extremely disruptive, instead of engaging in our talk comments you keep creating random RFCs, Gandhara can (in a wider sense) refer to Eastern Afghanistan( region around Jalalabad) as well as the Peshawar valley, both are covered, but more importantly those sources dont even talk about Pashtuns specifically in first place, but about the regions, it belongs into other articles, but not into this one, why do you want it to be included here specifically? Having that included in the article was a big compromise towards you to begin with, yet you keep creating RFC’s for whatever reason, this is clearly disruptive Xerxes931 (talk) 11:59, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Xerxes931. NE47NE (talk) 14:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

NE47NE and Xerxes931 please move your observation here Talk:Pashtuns#For_not_changing so other editors can easily navigate the debate. Thank you PashtoPromoter (talk) 14:38, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Breakpoint

• I recommend that this conversation/Request for Comment (which it is not a good example of) be closed, and left closed for a few days, with the article left in the status quo ante, then let us come back to it and have a reasonable, un-bludgeoned discussion; happy days, Lindsay^Hello 15:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Lindsay I will not comment on reply to users for a few days. But please do not close this RFC discussion. This concerns the history of 60-70 million people; more knowledgeable editors should be allowed to discuss the concerns I have highlighted with the misrepresentation of the source above.PashtoPromoter (talk) 15:57, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Lindsay a few days have passed; and tensions have settled hopefully. I hope editors can contribute now. Thank you PashtoPromoter (talk) 17:21, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Pashtuns in Iran

User:LouisAragon, I’ve seen you revert the Iran section about Pashtuns with the explanation that the population of Pashtuns there is marginal and didn’t play a significant role in the regions history and hence doesn’t belong into the top of the article. The section I’ve added the content too is about geographic distribution and not the lead, a section like this, regardless of the people playing a significant role for the regions history or not, falls into geographic distribution. Pashtuns played even less of a role in the Gulf or Arabian peninsular, but the population there is still mentioned in the section, so why shouldn’t this be done with Iran where there is much more of a historic background to the population inhabiting the region compared to the other regions mentioned?

PS: You’ve reverted some pictures in traditional homeland which were completely unrelated to the topic as well, I assume that was an accident. Xerxes931 (talk) 09:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xerxes931: One of the main reasons why this article continues to be a mess, is because every once in a while WP:UNDUE info gets shoved into the body or lede. Ethnologue (its usefulness is another topic by itself) estimated that in 1993 there were 110,000 Pashtun speakers in Iran. Just for a thought, ladies and gentlemen; there are (nowadays) c. 60–70 million Pashtuns according to this article. The info on marginal Pashtun communites outside Pashtunistan and India, such as those in Iran and the UAE, deserves mention somewhere on Wikipedia. However, I don't think its in line with WP:DUE to dedicate a subection for such a small diaspora within the first part of the article's body; an article about an ethnic group comprising some 60-70 million people. Most of the information within the Iran subection is furthermore about history, rather than any information about the contemporary situation, which only proves my point. Based on these arguments, I strongly believe a more fitting location would be somewhere lower in the article, or for example at Pashtun diaspora. Another option would be merging all of it into the Pashtuns#In_other_regions section, where I believe the Iran information was initially located. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xerxes931:@LouisAragon: The quantitative presence of Pashtuns in Iran as compared to other countries or the rest of the Iranian population is irrelevant. And it can be questioned whether or not they are "diaspora" or not. The Pashtun population in Iran was there well before the establishment of the modern Iranian state, so they are part of the founding ethnicities, and they are thus considered native. This makes their mention in the aforementioned section of the article correct as they are a native population and they do assert a presence in those boundaries, regardless of how many Pashtuns there are.شاه عباس (talk) 13:27, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2021

there's not a confirm source about Pashtuns that are eastern Iranian people,as many people and historian believe Pashtuns or one of the lost Tribe of Israel,and some people believe that Pashtuns are completely a separate Afghan nation who arrived to Afghanistan about 5,000 or more years ago.pashto old name was Bakhto, which later changed to Pashto, 2405:6E00:2F68:D701:CE9F:7AFF:FEE5:2BF7 (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:10, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Premission to add possible source about Pashtuns in Thailand

This source mentions there are a lot of Pashtuns living in Thailand, which could be added to the population figures box. I am not sure how reliable it is but its a start and we can discuss it too. thoughts? https://www.protoday247.com/pattans-kingdom-in-thailand/ Akmal94 (talk) 21:34, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2021

I want to correct Grammer Mistakes, Spelling mistakes. I am a Persian and I have done my research. Cyrus Kurush (talk) 10:07, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Melmann 10:30, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Oversight Request

Dear Admins a lot citation-based information is being removed and personal opinions being promoted on this page. I suspect meat puppetry and sock puppetry promoting such personal opinions. Can an admin please review the edits on this page. Its is information that describes 50-70 million people and hence I hope only reliable information is put forward here inline with Wikipedia policy PashtoPromoter (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2021

Change reference from: 296 "Malala wins nobel piece prize". The Guardian.

to

296 "Malala wins nobel peace prize". The Guardian. Iallika (talk) 08:49, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 13 October 2021

Yousef1834 (talk) 14:10, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Pakistan        43,444,221<br/ Afghanistan          36,161,924 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yousef1834 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: 36,000,000 is more people than live in Afghanistan (around 35,000,000). Only about 50% of Afghans are even Pashtun. Curbon7 (talk) 03:33, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

References

There are no pashtuns in Rohilkhand or UP in india.

This article is inaccurate and is using a historical reference erroneously as there are no longer any Pashtuns, ethnically or culturally remanining in the ROhilla mountains or in the UP province of india. Other than the few thousand Afghan refugees in india using the country as a transit to foreign countries and a small student population there are no real native Pashtun population. The Pashtuns are found in their homeland of Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of eastern Iran only. Please correct this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:1300:B1E:D5BD:2620:FE2A:8BD9 (talk) 14:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source. --WR 13:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Better image

Zalmay Khalilzad meeting Abdul Ghani Baradar, Abdul Hakim Ishaqzai, Sher Mohammad Abbas Stanikzai, Suhail Shaheen and another Taliban member in Doha, Qatar.

In the "modern era" section, can someone put this new image (showing Zalmay Khalilzad with Taliban leaders in 2020) in place of the one showing Khalilzad with George W. Bush. Unlike Bush, everyone in this image is Pashtun. And if you can, put this new image under the one showing Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai Anwar ul-Haq Ahady and Abdullah Abdullah.--39.41.0.150 (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Good suggestion. DOne --WR 21:22, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Inclusion of Flag proposed

File:Pashtunistan Flag.png

Pashtunistan Flag

PashtunNationalist (talk) 05:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed historical postage stamps released by the Afghan government back in the 1950s and 60s (File:Stamp of Afghanistan - 1961 - Colnect 670472 - Pashtun with Pashtunistan Flag.jpeg, File:Stamp of Afghanistan - 1962 - Colnect 485282 - Man and Woman with Flag.jpeg, File:Stamp of Afghanistan - 1965 - Colnect 429977 - Pashtu Flag.jpeg) do demonstrate that some form of a "Pashtunistan" separatist flag did exist. However this should be up for a general flag discussion. Also it probably should not be in this article. --WR 13:35, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Support the inclusion in Pashtunistan and other articles related to the Pashtunistan movement, as of course it has a historical basis. But it should not be in this article. Khestwol (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2021 (UTC) Khestwol (talk) 13:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Strong Oppose This is a article of Ethnic group any Afghanistan's government stamp paper based self published flag must not be added here or any other Pashtuns or historical Pashtunistan regions related articles, you can add it in Afghanistan's government related article but not in Pashtuns related articles. Ytpks896 (talk) 23:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021

mitochondrial DNA variation.

In a recent study of mitochondrial DNA haplogroups of Pashtun people, 50 unique variants were found out of 149 in total. The most prevalent variant was A73G (8%). 12 haplotypes were found in which 10 were unique. Two haplotypes U2b (South Asian) and T1a (West Asian) (14.2% each). further the Afghan Pashtun population has major haplogroup R (64.28%) followed by haplotypes T1a and U2b(14.2%) (Suleman khan zadran et al., 2021). The major haplogroup R is also prevalent in Pakistani Pashtuns (61.3%) having frequency of haplotype T1a (2.6%) and U2b (0.9%). This shows the common genetic lineage of both the populations. The strong linkage between Pashtun populations of these two regions were expected as these people were living together before the establishment of Durand Line in 1893.

REFERENCE

Zadran, Suleman Khan, et al. "Genetic characterization of the Afghan population: Analysis of mitochondrial DNA control region variation." Meta Gene 29 (2021): 100922.

• Don't know what this is, but it is not an edit request. Drmies (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Editor Needed

Hi, I'm Azan. I've created an article named, Mughal Khel which is about a subtribe of Yousafzais in Bannu. I want an editor who is associated with the topic 'Pashtuns' to please checkout my draft and got it approved. I would be thankful 🙂 103.255.7.54 (talk) 18:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Pakistan.

@HistoryofIran Why did you reverse my changes on Pakistan when I literally provided a reason which was backed up by one of the sources? 2A00:23C4:548D:901:99BE:33F9:3661:6D27 (talk) 23:31, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I reverted you because you removed 4k information with no edit summary. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:46, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I see. My apologies for that, that’s on me. Pegasus378 (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Topic picture

I suggest changing back the main article photo back to the one with pushtuns from kandhahar as this is an article about Pushtuns not Pashtunistan https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Tribal_and_religious_leaders_in_southern_Afghanistan.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.16.43.86 (talk) 12:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Why is India here

Khan Abdul Ghaffar khan’s grand daughter is not a reliable source for population. I will remove India from the infobox. SpicyBiryani (talk) 10:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

@Arjayay: FYI, in case you have missed it. SpicyBiryani did not leave an edit summary, but the explanation is here. –Austronesier (talk) 11:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

This was discussed extensively and a consensus was reached to retain the figures (Exhibit A & Exhibit B). Along with the drive by removals that have occurred over time, in addition to unsourced additions that contravene what was discussed here, I am restoring the article to the stable version. Any contentious changes should be discussed here rather than continuous edit warring, as is being carried out by User:Hercules298 now. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 05:08, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the figures should stay in the article. Claiming that the citation is from Ghaffar Khan's granddaughter without specifying that she's the president of the All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind, which represents Pakhtoons in India, is disingenuous. The article mentions the historical context surrounding the Pakhtoons and their status as Indian nationals. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 04:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. The only thing I have observed here is extensive edit warring. Myself among others have attempted to engage user:Anupam multiple times, noteably in March 2019 where I repeatedly asked this editor to explain his repeated changes to this figure. Refer to this archive. Besides the rare message where Anupam cites "multiple discussions" he does not engage such dicussions and simply goes back to reverting ot editing. The "concenus" on the other hand was that a single Lady claiming to be the granddaughter of a historic figure, cited by a handful of tabloid sites is not a reliable source of "Pashtuns in India". There is no indication of any census backed figure, which is what pages like this are mainly known to rely on. KamranHassanUK (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

On WP:RSN, uninvolved editors noted that these sources are reliable for reporting the claim as such (i.e. an estimate by a notable advocacy group), but not for using the figure in WP:WIKIVOICE, e.g. in the infobox (Exhibit C). –Austronesier (talk) 09:36, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Don't get this wrong, I do not believe that the quite conservative figure by the All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind about self-identifying Pathans (regardless of language proficiency, which is a different thing) is dubious, but I wonder whether there is not even a single scholarly source which at least gives an estimate for that figure. –Austronesier (talk) 10:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I would like once again flag that user Anupam is engaging in the same controversial edits without engaging anyone on talk pages [14]. Once again he is referring to "concensus" which just does not exist. This is extremely disengnous and bad faith contribution. KamranHassanUK (talk) 23:51, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

This misrepresents User:Anupam's edit summary. In the example given, he reverts to maintain status quo, and invites the other party to gain consensus when there is disagreement about whether an edit constitutes an improvement to the status quo. This is basic WP policy. The rationale of it is WP:ONUS. –Austronesier (talk) 18:48, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Austronesier KamranHassanUK. Data, esp. in the infobox, should be sourced from censuses or reliable sources, not some famous guy's kid's statements. And speaking Pashto doesn't make you Pashto by ethnicity anyway, which is what is being implied by citing figures of pashto speakers (none of which are as high as 3.2 million either, might I add). Re12345 (talk) 04:13, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Don't change the article without consensus. This isn't just a "famous person"--the fact that you're saying it's a "famous person" makes me think you might be socking since you're echoing the same comment from above. The statistic is from the All Pakhtun Jirga-e-Hind, the organization representing Pakhtuns in India. It's therefore reliable. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 21:08, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

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“eastern iranian people”

can someone word that differently to make more sense, maybe delete it? i know it’s because we are considered an eastern iranic ethnic group but it sounds like your saying we are an ethnic group in the eastern part of the country iran, which we aren’t. I’m pashtun and people have assumed i’m iranian because that’s the first thing they see from this article when they search up “pashtun” on google. maybe even delete that part since it doesn’t rlly seem like it belongs in that part of the article anyways, it just causes confusion. 2601:280:C77E:6800:5C55:6150:A24A:630B (talk) 04:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

thats not a good thing what they are doing, they should remove that iranian. 2A0A:A545:3AD:0:2574:4C81:E2CE:C8B1 (talk) 08:25, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

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I am going to Add and improve the Tribe section

Being the worlds largest tribal ethnicity, its quiet bad that there isn't a section for Pashtun tribes on this wikipedia page. On this occasion, il be placing a and re writing Pashtun tribe section Kasim30345 (talk) 11:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Why is this wiki so bad

If a random person views this page, theyl be confused, half the things mentioned on this Pashtun wiki page isnt even relative, There seems to a huge emphasis put on people of Pashtun ancestory rather thasn actual Pashtuns, Our tribes are not even mentioned neither is our culture of Pashtunwali or Jirgas. Our famous people arent writen on a list, instead its just random bollywood stars, a few cricketers and what on

Whoever controls and monitors this wiki must seriously be doing a bad job and causing big issues. this page need to change so that it at least looks like a proper Pashtun page with our culture, language, historical events, tribes and more 86.16.121.14 (talk) 12:07, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

i think you must read further into this page. It lists many things about pashtun culture (like attan, etc.). The huge emphasis you see on people of pashtun ancestory isn’t because the article is focused on that, but because there are many noteworthy people of pashtun ancestory, which is making the list long. Pashtun.pathan (talk) 19:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Iranian -> Iranic

change “Iranian ethnic group” to “Iranic ethnic group” as the word iranian gives the false idea that pashtuns are from/live in iran and are iranian citizens, when we are not. Pashtun.pathan (talk) 18:59, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Not done, as Iranian peoples main title is at Iranian and not Iranic. --Mvqr (talk) 10:38, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Improving this Page; Inaccurate information

Having read the article, thoroughly, its quiet a mess

The subheading are all in the wrong place with wrong order of importance. A lot of unsourced citations and misleading ones. I have corrected the "Pashtun Culture" Wikipedia, however this Wikipedia page also needs order and correction, as compared to other Ethnicity Wikipedia pages, this one is heavily confusing to your average reader

One of the 1st things that needs to be changed is the order of the Sub headings, So it is ordered in importance, starting from History, Geography, Culture, language, Notable people.

A new and improved sub section or Page for Pashtun tribes should also be improved as well as its history

It also makes very incorrect claims and misleading phrases such as "Many Pashtuns of Pakistan and India have adopted non-Pashtun cultures" - For Pakistani Pashtun, this is not true at all with the mass number practicing Pashtun culture

This will be a completed request to Improve this Wikipedia Page. Thank you

Kasim30345 (talk) 09:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2022

Hi, I saw it is written that dari is Pashtun's second language. It's misinformation. It is not. you can research, almost all Pashtun don't know dari, only a minority do. please change it so it avoids misinformation. remove "Additionally, Dari Persian[42] serves as the second language of Pashtuns in Afghanistan". Ii001lkj (talk) 16:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The sources included with that statement appear to support the wording. Aoidh (talk) 17:04, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Genetics

Regarding the study of haplogroups from one of the studies, it clearly stated that more samples were taken from the south (144) as opposed to the north (44) which doesn't show a clear picture. In fact, that shoud be mentioned in the study so readers can understand before they come to any conclusion. Akmal94 (talk) 00:43, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

PASHTUNS

The most brave people in the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SHAHAB KABEER KHAM (talk • contribs) 14:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Hindu Pashtun Notable Figures

Where are Hindu Pashtuns mentioned here nothing on Hindu Pashtun migration is mentioned? Just recently 55 Afghan Sikhs immigrated to India..India as we know it today was never really there home..please mention there were and are others in the region who didnt convert to Islam! Piscean.214 (talk) 14:37, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

While they may practice the Afghan way or pashtunwali they were not pashtun but merchants/traders from Panjab who were invited by the king of Afghanistan in the late 19th century. 2607:FEA8:1323:EC00:FDFD:E626:BD9E:44DD (talk) 15:10, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Inaccurate population figure

Was reviewing the population figures and noted several key problems.

1) Pashtuns represent about 45-60% of Afghanistan and as such their population figure would reflect a number closer to 17-18 million

2) Pashtun population in Pakistan is significantly much higher than stated and given a total population of 210 million and the higher birth rate of Pashtuns their population would clearly be in excess of 45 million people (excluding non-pashto speaking pashtuns)

3) not sure why there is mention of 3.2 million apparent Pashtun non-speakers claimants in india as this is merely speculative and without any lack of DNA confirmation appears highly dubious Lets keep Wikipedia as factual as we can!

4) THe pashtun population in Malaysia is definitely higher than 6,000 and needs to be better assessed 2607:FEA8:1323:EC00:FDFD:E626:BD9E:44DD (talk) 15:17, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Please cite the reliable sources on which you have based each of the statements above - Arjayay (talk) 15:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

"Pathaan" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Pathaan and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 29 § Pathaan until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2023

Kindly also add Allauddin khilji. Who was a khilji afghan. Nazo tokhi, the mother of mirawais hotak and others 39.40.162.144 (talk) 08:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: Added Nazo tokhi. Can't find a mention on the Alauddin Khalji page for being Pashtun. Any reliable sources? Uzek (talk) 12:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The yeuzhi/ kushan link

Why the very important chengs Analysis plotemys and strabos description was removed? any reason? Like hephtalites there should be seperate topic and it (there was another scholars description too on this) should be repost.92.220.51.19 (talk) 17:53, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Why has someone changed the main pages picture? Change it back

Please can someone change the intro picture back to how it was before. The link is below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tribal_and_religious_leaders_in_southern_Afghanistan.jpg#globalusage

It is a much more up to date picture of Pashtuns then a blurry black and white picture from 120 years the that could be anyone.

This picture also represents the culture of pashtuns much more too. 86.5.202.27 (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Pashtons

pashtons live in Khyber Pukhtun Khwa, Balochistan, Islamabad, Waziristan. pashtons are very simple people. pashtons not talked about society and enemy's. The most interesting is that pashtons not forget enemy. 2407:D000:B:6847:855E:DDE5:E3A:F9E6 (talk) 11:22, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@2407:D000:B:6847:855E:DDE5:E3A:F9E6 exectely 2407:D000:B:6847:855E:DDE5:E3A:F9E6 (talk) 11:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2023

QayumAf (talk) 11:26, 2 May 2023 (UTC) unlock the Semi-protected edit

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 11:57, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2023

To change the Population residing in Afghanistan from 20 million to approximately 16 million and the population of Pashtuns residing in Pakistan from 40 million to approximately 55 Million Hakimullahwazir (talk) 17:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2023

This line of text: "The city of Karachi in Pakistan is home to the largest community of Pashtuns." is not correct. Nothing in the source says that Karachi has the largest community of pashtuns. This is an unsubstantiated claim. Mohsabkha (talk) 12:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 19:17, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2023

want to add Baz Muhammad Khan to the notable pashtuns category. he is politician from Bannu and has been a senator and served multiple ministries in the past aswell SpeenBaz (talk) 17:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 18:14, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Error in demographics. No Pashtuns in india

This figure of 3,200,000 is erroneous and is not accurate. They are not recognized or accepted as Pashtuns nor do they follow the Pashtun code of honour or language. Can we please keep this article factual and not full of half truths. 2607:FEA8:1323:EC00:7DBC:974D:1DA2:157A (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

That's your opinion. They are of Pashtun descent even if they don't speak the language anymore. Akmal94 (talk) 23:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Its not a matter of opinion. The cites source is basically a tabloid statement coming from someone claiming to be a relative of Frontier Gandhi. There is absolutely no mention of this person anywhere besides a handful of Indian tabloid sources. Its utterly unverifiable and I encourage you to provide any sources or estimates of Pashtun origin population in Modern India. KamranHassanUK (talk) 23:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2023

In this sentence:

The city of Karachi in Pakistan is home to the world's largest urban community of Pashtuns. larger than Kabul and Peshawar.

Please change "Pashtuns. larger than Kabul" to "Pashtuns, larger than those of Kabul". Right now, the second element is an incomplete sentence. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 04:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Elli (talk | contribs) 07:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023

In the sentence I quoted in the previous section, please change "larger than Kabul" to "larger than those of Kabul". (The previous request was only partly accomplished, by fixing the punctuation error alone.) Right now, the article is in error for the following reason:

• The source's latest data says Karachi's population is 15% Pashtun
• Karachi says the city has roughly 20 million residents
• This means that there are roughly 3 million Pashtuns in Karachi
• Peshawar says the city has roughly 2 million residents
• Kabul says the city has roughly 5 million residents
• Karachi's Pashtun population is larger than Peshawar, but 2 million smaller than Kabul.

The source is talking about Karachi having the largest Pashtun population of any city worldwide, but it's not comparing Karachi's Pashtun population to the entire population of Kabul, as the current sentence does. Therefore, the current sentence should be changed to reflect the source correctly. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 23:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Pinchme123 (talk) 02:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Disrupting

@SouthAsianEdits Can you please explain why are you removing sourced facts? Pashtuns are Eastern Iranic group. If you have a statement to make let's talk about it here. Afghan.Records (talk) 14:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

October

@Aman.kumar.goel I modified your addition and trimmed the line "Before the Islamisation of their territory" to "Before Islam" because 1) it looked too wordy and POVish 2) the source only says "before advent of Islam", so looks like a misrepresentation too. Moved it around to where discussion about non Muslims actually begins so it looks due and not out of place. The religion heading is covered under the "Culture" section anyway, so obviously the present circumstances are due. (Side note: some sources you added are SYNTH too since they speaking of "Pashtun areas" not Pashtun themselves, these sources could also mean Dardic people)

The language section was based on sources cited too. I removed one source which spoke of Afghan refugees in Pakistan because it looked undue/irrelevant for infobox. Another source explicitly states "Indo-Afghans speaking Hindi and Punjabi" which is why I added "and other regional languages" after Hindi (significant numbers identity with Urdu as well, but no sources here hence covered in other regional languages). Urdu may have official status and a large number of speakers in India, but Hindi has no official status or significant documented speakers among citizens in census records of Pakistan.

Lastly, the Pashto speaking numbers for Pashtuns in India was cited too, no idea why you removed those. I wasn't expecting it would offend anybody, I just copy pasted it all from the long-standing lead version from a few weeks ago lol

Anyways, I will not editing here or anywhere for a long while, just thought I leave a comment here for clarification. . Kiu99 (talk) 19:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

This article

Is inaccurate they are a lost tribe unknown from where they originated from.. 174.92.132.77 (talk) 22:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Pashtuns aren’t Iranian

! 174.92.132.77 (talk) 22:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe you have confused the term Iranian. Which is both a nationality and language family. Pashtuns aren't Iranian nationals, but are considered one of Iranian peoples. Afghan.Records (talk) 16:56, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Sikh Pushtuns

I implore someone to add them on the religion minority column thank you https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/22267/PK 126.189.45.73 (talk) 23:57, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

sorry bro sikhs are not Pashtuns they are Punjabis. They are just living in Pakhtunkhawa and speaks pashto but they are by blood and by ethnicity they are Punjabis.. 39.33.127.114 (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Not all Pashtuns are pastoral.

The article conveys the idea that all Pashtuns are pastoralists but that's far from truth. Many notable pashtun tribes are historically and still agriculturalists so it should be noted. Pukhtun zalmai (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Only the Kuchi are and they make up about 5% of the Pashtun population. The citation for that statement is from Khushmand who is an Hazara writer with a bias, who also goes on to state to use terms like "Hazaraistan" and making assumptions that "Pashtun nomads" kicked out Hszaras out out of thier homeland to settle themselves. Why would nomads need land anyways? I hope someone of more knowledge can fix that in the future because all my edits on here get reverted without reason. Akmal94 (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2023

Change the "Hindu minority" to "Zoroastrian minority" House-of-Nashir (talk) 13:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 17:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023

The total number of Pashtuns should be corrected to around 62 Million if we add all the Pashtuns 40+18 million in Pakistan and Afghanistan and around 4 million across the world as mentioned below it in different countries. 94.109.225.23 (talk) 09:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Pinchme123 (talk) 05:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi I agree with him and for the sources I guess he's just mentionning those numbers + sources already present in the Infobox 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:B167:7D27:1B08:1ED1 (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 19:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

just that in the "Total population" the figure, which is old (2009), should be updated following the info in "Regions with significant populations", values being more recent (2023), so perhaps this :

| pop = c. 60 million

instead of this

| pop = c. 49 million

thanks 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:B167:7D27:1B08:1ED1 (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Thickynugnug (talk) 08:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

hi.. sources are already there the more recent ( 2023 ) data for Pakistan and so on that should just replace the total ( an estimation of 2009, 14 years ago, a lot especially for an ethnic group with such RISING population ).... 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:A59E:2470:2465:D527 (talk) 20:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The reviewer asked for the references to be provided on the talk page. Unless they are provided here, the request does not meet the requirement for SUNS - Any edit request must be accompanied by a detailed and specific description of what changes need to be made. Needless to say, detailed and specific descriptions are only those which are accompanied by their references in their correct locations (per WP:EDITXY: "Propose a specific change on a talk page").  Spintendo  23:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Bactrian theory

@HistoryofIran may you please explain why you remived the Bactrian section? As the section was supported by academic sources Afghan.Records (talk) 00:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

@Afghan.Records: Regarding these additions, can you provide URLs to the sources for verification, WP:NOR, etc. @HistoryofIran: The 'descent from Kushan' thing is only a passing mention, a one liner - "So that was the end of the Kushan Empire, though their descendants are still the Pashtun and the Kashmiris." The source doesn't delve on it, so I don't think we should use it. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Agree, the author has no expertise in this area either, according to the site, she has a doctorate in Classical Art and Archaeology. They're also now edit warring to add non-WP:RS to support their POV [15] [16]. I've already made three reverts, I'll just wait for the verdict at ANI [17]. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Dr. Karen Carr is Associate Professor Emerita, Department of History, Portland State University her having a another degree does not mean she is not qualified. However I respect your objection and I would add new evidence from Andre Wink about it. Afghan.Records (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it does, she's not even a historian, and this isn't exactly her forte either; I'm not gonna link you the rules again. Also, you are still trying to push the pov that the Khalajs are anything but Turkic [18], something you got blocked for last time. HistoryofIran (talk) 04:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I provide scholar opinions on the subject especially experts such as Wink and Doerfer who is known for his focus on the Khalaj. Also, I have not removed or edited any statements on their turkic origin but rather provided alternative views. For the violations I did last time was because I was unaware of the rules it was one of my first edits. Also, I am not pushing any views Im providing scholarly views, if they don't match with your views don’t make them invalid. I have removed Dr Carr as requested, but I will certainly be adding more information from historians and experts. Afghan.Records (talk) 05:59, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don’t have access to the links if I were to provide you with such it can be regarded ar pirating tho im not certain but I recommend you check the available sites I wlcan however send you the pdf for them Afghan.Records (talk) 16:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

@Afghan.Records: Please provide the URLs, PDFs, Google Book links, etc for the missing ones if possible. I wouldn't use Carr's source, it is just a passing mention. Besides, it is too big of a claim that Pashtun/Kashmiris are direct descendants of them. Partly descended, possible. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Understandable, I will remove Carrs statement. However, I can not provide all the links, I did for some, but some are for purchase. It would be ethically wrong if I do, maybe even illegal not sure. Afghan.Records (talk) 05:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2024

There are 21 Million Pashtuns in Afghanistan in 2023 Here is the source : https://www.worlddata.info/languages/pashto.php 2001:871:261:80C4:BDEC:6777:154E:3B98 (talk) 13:42, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Geardona (talk to me?) 21:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Bactrian origin

Please state your concern about the Bactrian origin if Pashtuns here before disrupting Afghan.Records (talk) 17:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Never edited?

So, it says I reverted edits from the recently blocked Afghan.Records, but I never remember reverting any edits on here. I only remember warning Afghan for edit warring and disrupting peace. If the edit is an incorrect edit, please fix it as I did not do anything, I swear. Thatoneguylol101 (talk) 06:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Me being temporarily banned at nothing to do with this page. so can you please refer it to it was before because you have removed crucial information. Afghan.Records (talk) 01:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Ignore the typos Afghan.Records (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@Afghan.Records Please explain what you're trying to do here. Your edit (revert) changed a lot of info. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Scythian and yuezhi

I think in the paragraph where talk of " scythian" tribe is quoted, it should be made clear that the Strabo meant yuezhis not scythians ( look the main yuezhi article for more info,) 178.232.61.65 (talk) 12:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Pseudo sources

Shockingly a lot of the sources in this page are motivated and cherry picked can someone with actual history knowledge take a look at them? The page stinks of propaganda and false narratives Afghan.Records (talk) 15:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Henry Wlater as a source?

Henry walter is not a reliable source he isn’t even a historian Afghan.Records (talk) 01:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

This article per WP:NPOV, presents "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources". Bellew's theory is a historical position, and other historical positions are mentioned in the article, such as the theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites (though highly unlikely). You have been warned and reverted by others, such as User:HistoryofIran who astutely noted: "This is hypocrisy. Fair enough that you remove poorly sourced information, but conveniently you only do it with info you don't agree with. You have no issue using poor sources if they fit your POV." Thanks for your understanding, Anupam^Talk 01:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly my sources from the 21st century about the Bactrian and Sogdians origin of Pashtuns from actual historians were deleted and but a 19th century surgeons view are cherry picked and published as facts.

My sources from Cambridge, Andre Wink, and Oxford university were called poor but Henry Walter is reliable? HistoyofIran has no fave calling me a hypocrite being the person he is and pushes a surgeons view over actual historians.

More edits doesn’t mean a person has more knowledge in the case of HOI more edits more propaganda and false information he has spread.

I have never seen hypocrisy on this level deleting the Bactrian sources from Cambridge History of Iran publishings and Sogdian sources from Oxford publications then saying “Bellew's theory is a historical position” giving it validation and calling me a hypocrite?

For this reason there should be restrictions on this page because its not a grammar fixing page people who actually believe a surgeon is more reliable and historically accurate than modern academics has no right editing a page of a whole ethnic group. Afghan.Records (talk) 03:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this is enough. You've had your WP:ROPE, the fact that you still try to justify your disruptive edits is baffling. For anyone interested, see their previous ANI report [19]. This user is in no position to talk about neutrality. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Well I am done with you pushing your agenda and bias and bullying inexperienced editors. Pushing Henry walter as a source says enough about your ability to provide proper and unbiased information, coupled with the fact that you conveniently ignore the part that he is a surgeon and to put even more sugar on top you ignore the part where he said Bangash are the descendants of Samanids and push and cherry pick tiny bits of what you like. You know you cant make a good argument so you proceed to accuse me of what you are actually doing. Afghan.Records (talk) 17:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

When did I push Henry Walter? Link a diff. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Go to the page see yourself, lost the argument so bad now trying to act like you didn’t. Afghan.Records (talk) 18:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

If you can't back up what you're saying, then please keep it to yourself. See WP:ASPERSIONS. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

• Bellew's hypothesis is sensible and of historical interest. There are many theories mentioned here, most of which are implausible. It's fine to mention this in historical context, and there is only one sentence devoted to it. I'm not sure why Afghan Records is getting so worked up about it. As noted above, this may be a personal POV issue. Lorstaking (talk) 18:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

  Not really I am worked up because Henry Wlaters words are cherry picked and actual academic material from scholars I posted in Pashtun theories were called cherry picking and deleted. Afghan.Records (talk) 18:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

  Also Bellews points are neither sensible or accurate thats why you will never see an academic saying anything similar. Besides his words here are cherry picked. Afghan.Records (talk) 18:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2024

Pukhtuns are not iranic people , pukhtuns are belong to one of the lost tribe of isreal. there are people who moved to afghanistan during persian empire from iran, those people speak dari(persian) those people are not pukhtuns , The information in the wikipedia calling pukhtuns eastern irani people is not correct and needed to be change . Khandong (talk) 01:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 01:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

What source did I put that was not reliable? Point to one Afghan.Records (talk) 15:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Number 19.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Pashtuns aren’t nomadic!

Only the ghilzai are and their origins are dubious! Ancestors of Pashtuns are Bactrians and Pactyans who were sedentary people 2607:FEA8:4D60:590:C1B4:3AFD:B8FE:8EFF (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Pashtuns in india number exaggerated

There are NOT 3.2 million Pashtuns in india and the source is a verbal arbitrary statement by an individual as the source without any actual fact checking. Please correct this section. 2607:FEA8:1323:EC00:4C25:7C29:756A:A32F (talk) 13:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a mire reliable source for it? Afghan.Records (talk) 18:05, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The Indian official census states a far lower lumber, around 27,000 if I recall correctly.

The currently cited source (a politician with their own agendas) is not reliable in comparison.

However, some people are obsessed with inflating the number of Pashtun living in India. Solblaze (talk) 20:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, sadly I have encountered the same issue. The figure is straight up unverifiable. In fact the figure comes from a lady who claims to be the daughter of a man who was allegedly adopted by Frontier Gandhi to continue the Pashtunistan movement from India. Her mission is equally non-sensical, as she is campaigning for citizenship for the said 3.2 million Pashtuns. She also makes other ridcilous claims that the Taliban are "outsiders" to Afghanistan and generally ignorant things, in what is almost certainly a psy-op by some agency. The fact is this "source" would not fly anywhere else on Wikipedia, but it keeps making rounds on here. KamranHassanUK (talk) 18:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

This 2011 Indian census link can be used if interested. Jammu and Kashmir had around 18,000 Pashto speakers in 2011, Delhi 1,800 and so on. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2024

Correcting the Population its 65M — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.39.72 (talk) 08:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2024

Sulimanmuhib (talk) 08:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

https://www.pashtontimes.com

" Not done, Empty request and a WP:SPAM link. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2024

Seaso- nal = Seasonal 2603:8000:D300:3650:547A:A641:DABF:1F02 (talk) 12:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)