Talk:Peppermint (entertainer)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

TV credits

Peppermint has appeared on The A-List: New York and America’s Next Top Model. Episode titles and references need to be found for these. Peppermint has also appeared in music videos for Debbie Harry and the Scissor Sisters, but I can't find which. Burnberrytree (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

BLP, name, edit warring

Please discuss proposed changes here.Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Image

The image I added today was taken by myself and is freely licensed under Creative Commons. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:08, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Update legal name?

I've seen multiple times on social media that Peppermint is a trans woman and does not identify herself as "Kevin", but I'm having trouble finding a good source to provide that update somewhere on the article ~Helicopter Llama~ 23:36, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter. One's birth name is a fact and belongs here. She doesn't perform at the Tunnel anymore but that doesn't mean we don't mention the Tunnel (and, yes, everybody called it "the Tunnel" when we went there back in the day...!) --Tenebrae (talk) 19:05, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Related to this, anon IPs have been vandalizing the article to remove Peppermint's birth name, which is from The News Journal of Wilmington, Delaware, the largest paper in the state, with an article written by one of her old classmates who is now a writer for the paper. Trying to censor it from Wikipedia when it is out there in a Gannett-owned, significant and WP:RS newspaper is both misguided and ineffective. The name is public record. Trying to censor a TV celebrity's public-record birth name in Wikipedia is against policy. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:ATWV and WP:ASG; it's not constructive to accuse these IP addresses of "vandalizing" or "censoring", simply because they believe one shouldn't deadname. Per MOS:BIRTHNAME:

In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable prior to coming out. One can introduce the name with either "born" or "formerly":

• (from Laverne Cox, not notable prior to coming out) Laverne Cox (born May 29) ...
• (from Chelsea Manning, notable prior to coming out) Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) ...

How notable was she (Moore, not her drag persona) before her Meet the Queens video for RPDR? Umimmak (talk) 05:42, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed with Umimmak. If Peppermint was not notable prior to transitioning then her previous name does not belong in the lead, per MOS:BIRTHNAME. (I would argue that the prior name doesn't belong in the article at all, but the current policy only specifies the lead sentence.) It doesn't matter if another publication has listed her previous name, even if that publication is a reliable source. Funcrunch (talk) 23:49, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

If necessary (I don't see how a birthname unrelated to the person's notability is particularly important), the birthname can be mentioned in the personal life section. MOS:BIRTHNAME is quite clear that it doesn't belong in the lead.--Trystan (talk) 00:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I've seen that update at MOS:BIRTHNAME and you are correct. I'll move to Personal life. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know that it's salient enough to even provide there, it seems so rarely mentioned by RS. Rab V (talk) 20:28, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Peppermint (drag queen). World's Lamest Critic (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

That discussion ended with no consensus to remove the RS-cited content. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:14, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Career - RuPaul's Drag Race

THere is a mistake: "She finished in second place after winner Sasha Velour, after they both lipsynced to Whitney Houston's "It's Not Right but It's Okay".[9]"

The song of the lipsync was Whitney Houston's "So Emotional".

Rick 195.220.100.11 (talk) 12:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Birthday & Peppermint getting honored by the NYC City councel for her LGBT activism

Can Peppermint's birthday (January 31st 1980) be added, she confirms the January 31st date on her instagram here (the year is missing, but it's spread throughout the internet and shows up in her short google bio): https://www.instagram.com/p/Beno7O3nVGc/?taken-by=peppermint247

Also Peppermint recently got honored by the New York City councel for her activism, I'd love to provide sources but all newsoutlets that reported about it are owned by Viacom, who have recently regio-blocked all of their websites, so that they can't be accessible in Europe anymore. I don't know if the article is fit for wikipedia's criteria of credibility. It's from NewNowNext and shows up first on Google when you search "Peppermint New York City Councel" 2A02:810C:200:70C0:3C77:3720:452D:BBFB (talk) 12:19, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Deadname

Peppermint was never notable by her birth name, so why is it included in this article? Many trans people do not wish for their former names to be mentioned (hence the term "deadname"), and it adds nothing of value to the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:52, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

One's birth name is a basic, pertinent biographical fact, just like birthplace and birthdate. Wikipedia specifically asks it not be in the lead of a trans person's biography, but certainly allows it elsewhere. In this case, the subject is a public figure who appeared on a high-profile TV series and is a highly public performer. Her birth name has been published in multiple RS outlets — including one that interviewed both Peppermint and her mother. Neither raised objections, and there is no record that Peppermint has raised objections to Wikipedia, which BLP subjects absolutely can do, if they wish to. I'm not sure we should be presuming something that may be important to one or another editor, but not to the majority of editors or to the subject herself. --65.78.8.103 (talk) 22:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

No. It does zero to add to the article, and deadnaming (See Transphobia) is a well-understood concept used to misgender and cause real world harm to trans people. The only pertinent fact here is that she was born male at birth, which is included. Her Deadname is insulting to include unless absolutely unavoidable, which in this case is not, on the world’s fact site, that is seen by everyone forever. Gleeanon409 (talk) 05:12, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

There has been ample discussion about this before, see BLPN archive.

According to IMDb, she was credited as Kevin Moore for several of the works that we currently list under "Filmography", e.g. Fur (film). So the above claim "was never notable by her birth name" is questionable.

The venerable Bay Area Reporter used the birth name as recently as 2018, and I would trust them to navigate trans rights correctly. While transphobia certainly causes real world physical harm in general, the accusation that mere mention of the birth name is doing so in this particular case is entirely unsubstantiated. Sure, per WP:DEADNAME, we should carefully evaluate whether the birth name is notable enough to be included in the lede. But mentioning it in the article body seems justified.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

At best I think this lands it as an editorial decision. I hardly accept IMDB as a reliable source. All things considered then still puts this as doing real world harm with zero net benefit to the reader. I don’t see any gain to listing her Deadname whatsoever.

At best it lends a case to be made for simply stating she had credit(s) under her birth name, no need to use when BLP cautions is to edit conservatively in private areas. wp:TRANSNAME discusses this. Gleeanon409 (talk) 08:25, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Where is the documentation that this birth name is a deadname? Are there WP:RS which call it a deadname, or do they explain that she no longer wishes to use it, or that her new name supplants her birth name in every way? It seems to me presumptuous and insensitive to simply assume, just because she is a trans woman, that her birth name is a deadname. Not all trans people are alike, and not all of them are stigmatized by having a birth name given to them. Elizium23 (talk) 09:21, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Agnes Moore, is her name, the vast majority of trans women in particular completely abandon their Deadname lives, often because they’ve also been disowned by their birth families. *Any* reminder or misgendering is assumed to be transphobic. Trans women routinely are shaded for not being real enough and violence against trans women of color in particular is off the charts. The trans women I know are extremely aware and sensitive to this, once they get treated like that they never walk in that store again assuming next time it could be violent. Gleeanon409 (talk) 16:40, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Gleeanon409, so you have assumptions and anecdotes? Good start! Elizium23 (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Sarcasm like this is not helpful. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Neither is it helpful for Gleeanon409 to make assumptions based on his or her own personal biases and pretending as if they can read Peppermint's mind. The concrete fact is that despite Gleeanon409's assumptions, Peppermint has never demonstrated an issue with this — not a letter-to-the-editor, not a complaint filed with Wikipedia. Why don't we respect her decision to take pride in her journey? --65.78.8.103 (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Those are not "assumptions" based on "personal biases"—trauma caused by deadnaming is a documented phenomenon ([1], [2], etc.). Furthermore we don't know that Peppermint has decided she would like to be public about her birth name, as you are implying. I also don't think it's kind to imply that trans people who do not wish their former names to be known are somehow ashamed of their journeys. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it is in doubt that she prefers to be referred to as "Agnes Moore". But that's not what this debate is about - as far as I can see, nobody has proposed that the article call her by her birth name. Rather it's about mentioning the birth name. See Use–mention distinction. Regard, HaeB (talk) 05:00, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

The ample discussion at BLPN did not result in consensus, hence why I have restarted the discussion. The onus on us is not to assume that something known to be hurtful to many transgender people is by default not hurtful; it's the other way around. If Peppermint has stated explicitly and recently that she is comfortable with her birth name being public information, then I have no objections to its inclusion. If she hasn't, we should err on the side of minimizing potential harm by not including it. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

That's the opposite of how Wikipedia is set up. Wikipedia has a process for a subject to request something not be mentioned. And the notion that anybody would say, in an interview or anyone else, "Here's what's OK to say about me" is completely unrealistic. The fact she and her mother were OK with her old friend and classmate who interviewed them putting it in that Wilmington News Journal / USA Today newspaper story is by any reasonable measure consent ... as is the fact it's been here for years without issue from her. Whitewashing pertinent facts that we would include for anyone else is paternalistic, saying that we know better than she what's good for her. --65.78.8.103 (talk) 22:22, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

That is exactly how Wikipedia is set up. The entire BLP policy is about ensuring that articles about living people are written with respect to the subject: "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment", and there's an enormous section titled Presumption in favor of privacy. Peppermint does not have to explicitly say "It's okay to use my birth name"—if she herself mentions the name I think that would be fine. But I don't think we should assume she was given pre-publication access to the article you're referring to. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:35, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

It’s fairly disingenuous to put the onus on the subject of an article to bring even more attention to an aspect of her past life she wish didn’t exist. She used her birth name as legally required until she no longer had to; then was Agnes Moore, better known as Peppermint. There is zero need to use her Deadname, and it offers zero benefit to the reader in this case. Coupled with that we have ample evidence that Deadnaming causes real world harm to trans people who often go to great lengths to disassociate from their deadnaming past. This is an editorial decision and the balance goes to privacy on a BLP. Gleeanon409 (talk) 02:53, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Peppermint has now publically explicated that she would prefer her deadname to not be used, even retroactively: https://twitter.com/Peppermint247/status/1234245069873569800?s=19 From this, I think it’s clear that taking the mention of her deadname off of her page is definitely the right course of action here. Bwitiye (talk) 22:46, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

I have reversed your good-faith edit. This information is already known and currently being discussed in the section #Possible solution amenable to both sides?. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 23:06, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Edit Request

To add birthday January 31, 1980 Lanadelol (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Source? GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 March 2020

Adding her latest appearance in the "Pit Stop" to her Web Series Filmography. Scootersfood (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

@Scootersfood: Do you have a source to support this? GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Izno (talk) 01:06, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Copyright violation in the lead

In two locations, this article infringes on its source, which contains the phrase: "... she becomes the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway." See this comparison by Earwig's Copyvio Detector.

The relevant sentences in the article are:

• In the lead paragraph, "In 2018 Peppermint made her Broadway debut in The Go-Go's-inspired musical Head Over Heels playing the role of Pythio becoming the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway."
• In the section Head Over Heels, "... Peppermint became the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway."

Does anyone have thoughts for rephrasing these portions of the article? Thanks, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 01:06, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that's quite close enough to be a copyvio. I don't know if it can easily be rephrased without using the words "originate" and "principal role", which don't have much in the way of synonyms. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:22, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I know, I was struggling, too, but a 12-word string that is duplicated word-for-word is definitely a copyvio. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 04:09, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

she became Broadway’s first trans woman to originate a lead role? Gleeanon409 (talk) 01:59, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

It's perhaps still closely paraphrased, but definitely an improvement. If others agree, I suggest replacing the current language with this phrasing. Thanks very much, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 04:09, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

What about changing it to "...playing the role of Pythio, marking the first time a trans woman has originated a principal role on Broadway." Still close, but perhaps different enought. It's pretty hard to express this idea without the words/phrases "trans woman" "orginate" and "prinipal role". Yilloslime (talk) 04:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

For reference, here is the sentence at the cited source:

• "When the musical opens this summer, she'll become the first performer who identifies as a trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway."

And here is the sentence in the lead:

• "In 2018 Peppermint made her Broadway debut in The Go-Go's-inspired musical Head Over Heels playing the role of Pythio becoming the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway."

I'm not sure how, without a spaghetti-string of words, the close paraphrase "the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway" could be said any differently. (By spaghetti-string, I mean something overwritten and strained like: "the first person who identifies as a transexual female to play an opening-night role as one of the main characters in a Broadway production.")

I can suggest that the current sentence in the lead needs a couple of grammatical fixes. Perhaps, for now: "In 2018, Peppermint made her Broadway debut in The Go-Go's-inspired musical Head Over Heels, playing Pythio and becoming the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway." --65.78.8.103 (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Url-status correction

During the recent edit war, two sources were mismarked "dead" instead of "unfit" (see Template:Cite news#URL). In the Personal life section, please replace the citation code for the first two sources (The News Journal and Gay.it) with the following:

<ref name=people2017/><ref>{{cite news |last=Cormier |first=Ryan |date=March 17, 2017 |title=Wilmington native competing on 'RuPaul's Drag Race' |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/2017/03/17/wilmington-native-competing-rupauls-drag-race/99253072/ |url-status=unfit |work=[[The News Journal]] |location=Wilmington, Delaware |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170530195309/https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/2017/03/17/wilmington-native-competing-rupauls-drag-race/99253072/ |archive-date=May 30, 2017 |access-date=May 23, 2017 |via=[[USA Today]]}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |date=February 2, 2018 |title=Miss Peppermint prima donna transgender ad avere un ruolo da protagonista a Broadway |trans-title=Miss Peppermint first transgender woman to have a starring role on Broadway |url=http://www.gay.it/attualita/video/miss-peppermint-transgender-broadway |url-status=unfit |work=Gay.it |language=it |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180205210744/http://www.gay.it/attualita/video/miss-peppermint-transgender-broadway |archive-date=February 5, 2018 |access-date=February 5, 2018}}</ref>

Although this is an uncontroversial change, as an editor involved in the ongoing content dispute I am refraining from making it myself out of an (over-)abundance of caution.

Thank you, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:00, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

I took a look at this one earlier this week. Black Falcon, some questions.

1. Regarding Cormier, why is |url-status=unfit? That is intended for websites taken over by spam or malware, not for a link to USA Today.
2. Why is Gay.it's link unfit? I don't know enough about that website.

--Izno (talk) 12:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)