Talk:Personal computer/Archive 5

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Important - there is a big error in the article - the first personal computer was an OLIVETTI (called Programma 101).

This personal computer, engineered between 1962 - 1964, was first presented on 04 october 1965 at New York by Olivetti. The name of the computer was "Programma 101". Hewlett Packard then bought 100 "Programma 101" and, after a while, they launche a PC which was identical to "Programma 101". Hewlett Packard was then accused of violating the "copyright" and had to pay Olivetti 900.000 US dollar for violation copyright.

Here you have some fresh news about that (there is also an HISTORY CHANNELL documentary on that): http://badinicreateam.blogspot.com/2011/05/olivetti-pc-pioneers-badini.html Regards

Antonio — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.14.112.200 (talk) 11:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The Programma 101 was a programmable calculator, not a computer in the common sense, regardless of what the marketing materials state. Another feature of "personal" computers is affordability - adjusted for inflation the Programma 101 would cost $22,000 - a huge chunk of money for a souped up calculator. The PET 2001 and Apple II cost around $3000 in today's dollars. Jbmcb (talk) 15:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Jbmcb, don't take it bad, but your objections are ridicolous. For any commercial products "affordability" is a nice feature, but certainly not an essential quality, and it is achieved when production becames large. Of course the price of the first computer was necessarily higher. I suggest to cover the lack of information in this nice article ( at the moment there is not even a link with programma 101!) --pma 11:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As user Jbmcb said, the main reason the world thinks that the Programma 101 wasn't the first personal computer, is not because of the cost, but simply because conventional wisdom says its not a computer. Although there is also a point where when its not really affordable by a normal person you cannot really say its a personal computer. That is why we differentiate between PC's and workstations, even though workstations also tend to be used by a single person at a time. According to WP:NOT wikipedia isn't a soapbox you can use to try to change the opinion of the world, instead wikipedia follows the opinion of the world. Even If you can find a reliable source that says "the Programma 101 was the worlds first PC", then we can put in that as an opinion, not as a fact. Mahjongg (talk) 22:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Mahjongg, it seems to me that the main point here is not: deciding a definition of PC, in order to start this article from the first object that falls into that definition. (And, personally, I do not have an opinion about such a definition, unlike the users Antonio and Jbmcb, and you. Generally speaking, I'm just of the idea that a definition should go to the essence of the things; as to the "common wisdom", it's always relevant but never decisive - btw, I'm just back form a nice reading of this article).

Whether or not the P101 and other prototypes are PC's, is, of course, a matter of opinion. From a naive point of view, I imagine that those things can be named quite naturally computers, and certainly they are personal objects, as compared with the huge computers of the preceding generation, that needed a whole equipe of operators. On the other hand, I suppose that they are certainly not PC's, according to some other respectable and reasonable definition -one may observe that they had no display, nor microprocessors, and they couldn't be used for such an important thing as Wikipedia :) etc.

Rather, the information I'd like to get from an article like this is: what is the history of an object; what is its derivation from preceding forms and prototypes (however we agree to call them); when and by whom its main features have been introduced, and which are the important steps in evolution towards the current form. And, of course, all this should be written staying on facts. From this point of view, not mentioning the role of the P101 in the derivation of the current PC, and not mentioning the plagiarism of HP is somehow a lack of information. --pma 19:03, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice, but trying to convince me is irrelevant, the only relevant rule is "is there a reliable source to support the claim", if so it can go into wikipedia, (whether I like it or not, that is irrelevant, as long as there is a reliable source,and consensus) if not then not. Therefore if a reliable source makes the claim that the Programma 101 was the first personal computer, then such a claim can be mentioned in the article, otherwise not. Regardless what you or I write on this talk page. Also, do realize that extreme claims need extreme proof, and claiming that some obscure programmable calculator was "the first PC" is quite an extreme claim. That this claim isn't made in this article therefore isn't a "big error", but is "by design". As for " "common wisdom", it's always relevant but never decisive" if you think that applies to Wikipedia I'm afraid you do not understand how Wikipedia works, wikipedia explicitly mirrors "common wisdom", even if its really "common stupidity", or even the Tyranny of the majority. Mahjongg (talk) 01:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I beg your pardon, I've got the impression you did not completely understand what I wrote. You may consider reading it again, but it's up to you; I do not want to abuse of your time and of your energies. But do not call something "obscure" just because you do not know what it is. This may sound impolite, and certainly not intelligent from your side (the latter event being more excusable, of course!). --pma 21:00, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

computer seller compare prices with US prices

How do computer seller compare with US prices and other brands with similar specs — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yogesh Khitani (talk • contribs) 08:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Introduction rewrite

the Introduction as it exists now is terrible. The writing is convoluted and haughty, there is not always a clear connection between ideas, and "commonly" and its synonyms occur too frequently. While in most passages these writing problems are the only issues and they just need to be shortened and clarified, the opening sentence is trickier.

” personal computer (PC) is any general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and original sales price make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end-user with no intervening computer operator. “

I think it might be enough to say that a PC is a general-purpose computer, and add maybe that it is intended for individual use. The stuff about "[...] mak[ing] it useful for individuals" is silly. Further information about it being ubiquitous today, used in home and work environments, acting as a hub for other devices, etc, could be provided in the next few phrases. I'm not sure how to tackle the last secriton about end-users with no intervening operator, though. Is it really that necessary to put it here? Is that a standard technical desription of a PC?theBOBbobato (talk) 14:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

People helping computers vs. computers helping people

I wanted to include this thought, but on further reflection, considered it perhaps to be inappropriate. When there were only a few true computers in the world, they were extremely costly, and no lack of tasks for them to perform. Computer operators, in particular, had to "help" the computer do what it did best -- stay as busy as possible with high-speed data processing. As the decades wore on, computers needed progressively less help to do what they were best suited for, but, even today, there are traces (at least!) of this legacy; certain details of their use are still remnants of the earliest era. In some ways, we still need to help computers when, ideally, we shouldn't have to. There's still lots of room for future developments (gaze-location detectors come to mind) that will continue to lessen the need for humans to help computers. I wouldn't mind some encouragement to include this into the main text.

(Off-topic: How come instruction sets are philosophically akin to organ stoplists?)

Regards,Nikevich 14:32, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Description of current tablets vague/inaccurate

"Recently, tablet PCs have been given operating systems normally used on phones, like Android or iOS. This gives them many of the same uses as a phone, but with more power and functionality."

What does "power and functionality" mean here? How does a tablet do anything more than a smartphone running the same OS? If we're talking about computational power, tablets and phones are very much in the same ballpark, with many phones having more powerful CPUs than many tablets. Since they run the same OS and the same applications and use the same types of peripherals, how does a tablet provide any additional functionality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.138.121.133 (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Apple is not a PC

Please show RS that state Apple products are PCs, because if you search through google you can't find a single one. If multiple RS can not be shown to state that they are, it does not matter if Apple products fit the definition of a PC, to classify them as one is OR. Multiple RS can be found that state they are not.97.88.87.68 (talk) 19:43, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

PC stands for Personal computer. Its personal and its a computer. The fast majority of components found in a Mac can be found inside other computers. For example, Processor, RAM, CPU etc. There isnt much difference between a Mac and a Dell. --JetBlast (talk) 23:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Then show a RS that states that a Mac is a PC. Because all RS out there say it is not. To simply say that their is no difference and therefore a Mac is a PC is simply Original Research and not allowed. There is no common sense, you can only state what references state.97.85.211.124 (talk) 01:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The article title here is not "PC", it is "Personal computer". A Google search for

"personal computer" Macintosh 

finds many pages that state that the Macintosh is a personal computer. One of them on my first page of search results is even from apple.com:

Jun 23, 2003 – Powered by the revolutionary PowerPC G5 processor designed by IBM and Apple, the Power Mac G5 is the first personal computer to utilize ...

Conversely, nowhere does this article state or imply that Macs are commonly referred to as "PC"s. I'm just not seeing a problem here. Jeh (talk) 09:41, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

outdated.

Hi everyone. Reading the opening paragraph on the PC article, i find it quite outdated. Todays computers are more or less used by businesses and home owners. Infact some businesses use lower grade computers than home owners. Prices for these machines have dropped so much in the last decade that we are all using high end pc's, with multi processors, high spec graphic cards and ram. Can this article be modified with the times of today? Also parts of it just don't make any sense, certainly in today's high tech world. --Jonhope123 (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Computers

Bold textComputers Guys,Guys,Guys. PC are office computers. Yes,Tablets are computers,they have microprocessors, like computers. 24.129.70.212 (talk) 01:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC) Daniel M ♥

CPU relevance?

"AMD provides the major alternative to Intel's central processing units." This seems highly irrelevant to the subject and especially in the paragraph where it is presented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.251.26.50 (talk) 23:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

More obvious inclusion of OS X

Does anybody else feel that it should be made clear that despite Apple's desperate attempts to distance themselves from the "PC" name, that OS X is indeed a PC, and that "Mac vs PC" is not a valid statement? DanielDPeterson (talk) 07:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

It may not be a valid statement when using the conventional meaning of PC, but for many people this has now become a valid statement. Microsoft even replied to the Mac vs PC ads by bringing out the "I'm a PC" ads. If enough people accept this distinction it becomes real. That is how language works. Leprecon (talk) 08:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I don't like it, but I think there probably should be a section to cover this phenomenon. The section would be called something like "More Restrictive Definitions of 'PC'". It would discuss the way that many people (possibly the majority?) may use "PC" to specifically refer to, well, Wintel? Or to any PC running a Microsoft OS? Or to any IBM compatible PC that isn't running an Apple OS? ("I'm a PC" is clearly a notable concept.) And, there are other more restrictive definitions too. I think some people might try to distinguish "laptop vs PC" - which we could probably describe as wrong (but still notable). Many people would at least exclude tablet devices, due to their form factor. And many would exclude devices that the user is not truly in control of like the i-pad (e.g. see above). (After all, it is not necessarily the case that a two-word term encompasses all possible combinations of the meanings of its constituent words; e.g. open shop, natural selection, green paper.) Open4D (talk) 20:57, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

OS X is a set of CDs, and needs a computer to run. It's "Coke vs Pepsi" on the one hand, and "generic bubbly brown liquid" on the other. Any Macintosh is a personal computer, but only IBM makes IBM PCs (or used to). I don't think we need to dwell on the difference between brand identity vs. category of computer here; no-one expects to have to time-share on a Macintosh in some distant dionsaur pen, no matter how much they say it's not a "PC" - we know they mean "it's not running Microsoft Windows". People are a lot less fooled by the marketing nonsense than we edtors may believe. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Historical inaccuracies - Zuse

The first statment in this article's history section is historically inaccurate, misleading, and has no place in the article --

  ---  "The Z3 by German inventor Konrad Zuse from 1941 was the first working programmable, fully automatic computing machine. Thus, Zuse is often regarded as the inventor of the computer."

point 1 -- Vannevar Bush's work (and that of others) cleary pre-dates the Z3.

point 2 -- Very few knowledegable people consider Zuse the "inventor of the computer"

point 3 -- the Z3 was a calculator made from discarded electronic relays. It was not what we would consider "a computer".

point 4 -- most of the references to the Z3 are from the 1980's and later. There appears to be little or no original documentation and no existing physical components from the Z3. Everything we know about it appears to be retrospectively reconstructed. Is it embellished? We can't be sure.

It is safe to say Zuse was among the pioneers of early computing, and apprently developed many innovative ideas in comptuer architecture, but students who read this article are mislead into believing he is the monolithic "father of computing."

There is a clear pro-Zuse bias here. The article should be correced.

68.80.26.175 (talk) 15:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC) Chuck Herbert cherbert@ccp.edu

Yes, I agree with you! The Problem is, many Germans think (the Media Propaganda is here horrible in Germany!) this Guy is the Father of all Computers in the World! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.205.72 (talk) 18:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Pingdom blog

I'm not sure that an anonymous corporate blog which describes itself as a place where its writers "ramble and muse about technology in general" is a reliable source. Can we get a stronger source for the Programma 101 being "the first commercial desktop personal computer"? The Programma 101 article uses a paywalled and an offline source for the same claim, but I don't want to reuse these without being able to verify them. --McGeddon (talk) 11:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Toxicity - Recycling

The text in recycling is very rambling and reads like a poorly written history of US EPR initiatives. I fixed some 8/23/14, but the better solution is to rework the Toxicity/Recycling section as a compact reference to the main article 'Computer Recycling' which addresses the issues well. There is no US national EPR Act (as of this date). The reference to 'developing countries' is oblique. The notion that the e-steward program provides a proper mechanism is value statement. (Replaced with orderly). The use of .reasons' in the 'opposing organisations' text was illogical (fixed - but had to make assumptions about original intent). LarryLACa (talk) 19:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Statement about Size and Sophistication of Early Computers

The statement "Before the Programma 101, computers were as large as trucks and used only by trained specialists" is wrong on both counts. For example, take a look at the Wikipedia page for the "LGP-30". It was first produced in 1956 and was about the size of a desk. I learned to program one in 11th grade (back in the 1960's). I had some help from a high school Math teacher, but that hardly qualified me to be called a "trained specialist".

I recommend you remove this statement since it's completely untrue.

Catgod119 (talk) 08:58, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Removed. Jeh (talk) 23:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

PC as a clipping for Wintel

Okay, here are my reasons for why I think that section is inappropriate

• It puts undue weight on a differing definition for PC that completely contradicts the rest of the article, which described PC as a class of device, but now says PC is only Wintel. There are more relevant locations that this could be covered in a neutral manner without giving a separate heading for just 1-3 sentences of information.
• The tone feels off, i.e. "It means a personal computers" and "it is used in a different sense". The version in the lead is written in an encyclopedic tone

ViperSnake151  Talk  17:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

@ViperSnake151: Hi. So you finally found your way into this page? ;) I'm glad you did.

Actually, I agree with most of this message. (And meanwhile, believe that it contradicts your previously given rationale.)

• Yes, the section contradicts for two reason: First, the world at large out there has adopted a contradictory definition for PC, overriding its previous. In that light, a Wikipedia editor may only report it, not disguise it as "resolved locally"! Second, yes, it is a makeshift section and the rest of the article must be fixed to make it more compatible. But all in all, deletion is not the solution.
• Again, fix it; deletion is not a fix. The statement in the lead is a rip-off of the disputed section, with the sources having been copied and pasted ad hoc, without any regard as to whether they do pass verification test. Verifiability is one Wikipedia's pillars; sounding musical and harmonic isn't one. Last but not least, the lead says "x86 and x86-64-compatible"; you and I know that it is redundant; "x86" is enough instead of this wordy phrase.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 04:06, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

You're questioning the verifiability of sources that you originally introduced. ViperSnake151  Talk  15:09, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

@ViperSnake151: What are you talking about? Codename Lisa (talk) 16:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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First desktop computer/personal computer?

The descriptions in the "History" describing the first desktop computer/personal computer seems to bear no relationship to reality as far as sources go. It claims the first is the Programma 101 and then cites an anonymous blog. Trying to find support for the claim in other articles brought up WP:OR citations of someone making the claim based on 1965 descriptions of it as a "desktop computer" [1]) and the same anonymous blog post[2] used as a source again. Looking up this "question" brings up other sources (one of which is used in Wikipedia) that tell an entirely different story with a long sliding scale, many noting the Altair 8800 as the true first and none give the distinction to the Programma 101 [3] [4] [5] [6]. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 03:36, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

So you're justifying the complete removal of mention of the Olivetti Programma 101 by this comment of yours? I don't know about you, but for me the first computer I could use 1-on-1 was the Olivetti 101. I think it deserves a mention. Here's a source: [7]. There are lots more that get into the extent to which you might want to call it a "personal computer". Dicklyon (talk) 04:00, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

The way the Programma 101 was added in there was way out of line (re totally bogus), if it has any relevance (I see minor at best) it is someone else's WP:BURDEN to add it (please note: a source about a museum describing an Italian POV may not be applicable). This problem has been tagged for quite a while (no response is a response). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 04:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

When was it added? And was there a problem noted other than the unreliable source tag for the price? Dicklyon (talk) 04:20, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

The claim that it was the first desktop computer seems supported by the two contemporary (1965) sources in the Programma 101 article:

The Olivetti Programma 101, also known as Perottina or P101, is the first commercial programmable "desktop computer".

References

If it was called a "desk-top" computer in 1965 how is it not the first desktop computer? —DIY Editor (talk) 04:23, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I've put back a brief mention. Please do expand it and cite those sources. Dicklyon (talk) 04:57, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Re: "If it was called a "desk-top" computer in 1965 how is it not the first desktop computer? " - that's pretty simple per Wikipedia policy. Those are primary sources and Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation (WP:PSTS). You need very reliable secondary sources to make that claim and if sources differ you can not make that claim - also per policy (WP:YESPOV bullet #2). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:00, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Rolled back the claim of "The Programma 101 was the first commercial "desktop personal computer"", 3 primary sources and one secondary that may not be very "independant". More basically it can not be put in Wikipedia as a direct statement of fact per WP:YESPOV per that, including that, that, that, that, and that. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

There are similar google books references for the Programma 101 being the first desktop computer [8] [9] [10] [11]. The Altair seems to be referred to as "personal computer" rather than desktop computer, and I see competing mentions of DEC's 1962 LINC, an unnamed 1959 machine by IBM, and the 1973 Xerox Alto (seems the least credible). If all these published sources disagree how conclusive are any of them? On the contrary, WP:YESPOV seems like an argument for mentioning each, and probably that sources disagree on which is considered the first. —DIY Editor (talk) 19:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Also, Business Week and The Wall Street Journal are secondary sources about the Programma 101, not primary, but you are correct that it would be WP:OR to interpret them calling it a desktop computer at that time to mean it was the first. —DIY Editor (talk) 19:53, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Just cleaned up more but, yes, all could be mentioned in the lead of the section since all had different aspects of a "personal computer" --- for example the 101 sat on a desk (sort of), the Alto was easy to use, the Altair was cheap. My only caveat would be a source (more than one actually) needs to make this comparison/observation, not us. I don't think I would complain if we made it but others might. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Just a small FYI, Business Week and The Wall Street Journal "Magazine or journal article from the time period you're writing about" are are considered primary sources per WP:PSTS, note #3, bullet 2 link and bullet 3.Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

There's a chapter on the 101 in "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples", which finishes up with "The significant fact to the reader is that the Programma 101 calculator is a nicely designed stored program computer". They called it a "desk calculator" at the times, but secondary sources such as this explain that is was a computer (and user programmable, not just internally). I can mail a scan to anyone who wants to read the chapter and say more. Dicklyon (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

@Fountains of Bryn Mawr: Thanks for the info regarding contemporary sources. You have a good point about the need for us to have a secondary source to make a comparison between something not explicitly called a personal computer and the topic of personal computers. It may be that including the mention of machines called only "desktop computers" or "microcomputers" is WP:OR, although the article does already equate microcomputer and personal computer. However, if it is obvious that something is related to the topic of personal computers isn't that adequate to include sourced discussion of it without additional analysis? History of personal computers seems to be written under that assumption. —DIY Editor (talk) 06:24, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I simply have not found anything that states the Programma 101 is obviously related to the topic of personal computers. Looking at third-party secondary sources that deal with this context of "personal computers history" the Programma 101 is not included (here here, here, or here) What brought me here is what seemed to be a WP:REDFLAG claim constantly posted at List of Italian inventions. The claim was added to Personal computer in the normal un-referenced CRUFT-y way[12] and then POVPUSH'ed by another editor[13]. It looks to me like 3 [14] [15] [16] of the sources cited in talk are simply mirrors of the claim in Wikipedia (life in the echo chamber). The Programma 101 should not be in this article and probably not in History of personal computers either, sources are lacking. Contemporaneous sources and more recent ones (used in this article before I edited it) state over and over again that the Programma 101 was a programmable desk calculator. This indicates it has a relevance to the history of computers but that is another topic. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:49, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

It was sold as a programmable desktop calculator. But I don't think you can argue with Bell & Newell that it was a user-programmable stored-program computer; and personal. Here is another book that calls it a personal computer. And this book calls it the first personal computer (possibly based on Wikipedia). And this one says it's the "turning point" between personal calculators and personal computers. Here's another about all that. I'm not suggesting we endorse these viewpoints; but report them. Dicklyon (talk) 03:21, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

@Fountains of Bryn Mawr: I wish I had paid better attention to your points about this article. Knowing that you came here because of this problem is helpful. As an indicator of the state of things, History of personal computers had an oversize (400px) picture of the Programma 101 team, with a long caption, way out of proportion to the small pictures of actual computers in the rest of the section. WP:OR violations and POV/special interest pushing are major problems for Wikipedia and I am glad to have the opportunity to learn from someone with experience spotting these issues. —DIY Editor (talk) 06:08, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Fix the emphasis, cite better sources, tone down the claims, but don't just pretend it didn't exist just because someone is pushing it too much. Dicklyon (talk) 06:33, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

I personally would include some mention of it at this point but I'm not certain that is in keeping with policy. We may need to get help from WP:RSN or WP:NORN. —DIY Editor (talk) 07:00, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Sources keep being posted to support the Programma 101 that fall into the pitfalls of reliable sourcing, such as "not very third part" (comments on significant Italian inventions in an Italian museum), and not authoritative (a non-historian who probably copied Wikipedia). We can read "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples" here and it says over and over again in different sections that this was a programmable calculator. I do not mean to harp on this other than to say the history section of this article should contain the main points found in overall histories of the personal computer - "sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made". You can always find an individual source that claims something because of their own POV but if that same observation is totally absent in an overall history then its a tiny minority view and "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views". Programma 101 may belong in History of personal computers but that is also debatable, I note the still existent PUSH DIY Editor seems to see. I am glad we are taking a step back to see if we are reading mirrors of our own work, probably need to take one step further and say "if we wrote this today reading the compiled histories on this, what would we have?" Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

The Programma 101 does look and seem like a programmable calculator although programmable calculators are a subset of computers. Even if they are computers, that may leave them distinct from personal computers, without clear evidence they are included in the definition. These articles are about whatever is called a "personal computer" so how can they have something not really called that? There's no room in the article(s) for tangential material and no justification for putting it. There are other notable programmable calculators and other things that are "personal" and technically "computers" that don't belong in the personal computer articles. —DIY Editor (talk) 10:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

If we follow your reasoning we should state that the Wright brothers didn't invent the airplane but just a rough ultralight or that Benz did not create the first the car but only a motorized tricycle for disabled people. A Personal Computer is defined as a general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and price make it feasible for individual use. In the history of Computer we find that the Manchester Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM) is described as a computer and not a calculator so why a more innovative device like Programma 101 having a desktop size and a popular price should be downgraded to programmable calculator? Magnagr (talk) 03:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

It's good to have input from another editor on this. It was my initial impression that the Programma 101 obviously belonged in the article but I think the question has to be whether reliable sources place it in the category of "personal computers" or at least generally discuss it when discussing the history of personal computers. Also, whether it belongs in the History of personal computers article is somewhat separate from whether it belongs in this article. This article should just have a general overview, based on reliable secondary sources, while the main article can cover details. —DIY Editor (talk) 05:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Back from IRL, glad to see discussion. Just going through sources (and stuff off the top of my head) there is a basic definition of a personal computer - "it is a universally programmable machine intended for one user (and eventually becoming affordable and operable by most users). It was developed from the microprocessor, a device that became available in 1971". Sources are plentiful [17][18], 150 min documentary here. Which was the first machine to do this is debatable, Altair? Datapoint?. Calculator development did have a roll in this but it was the Japanese firm Busicom pushing Intel engineers to develop them a more capable integrated circuit for their new calculator (documentary here, transcript here). I think historical links in my last post and these give us a pretty solid historical background for a History section and these versions do not seem to be divergent - pretty much the same story all around. Unfortunately for Programma 101 fans, it is not listed as a progenitor. It may belong at History of computing hardware. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I personally disagree. In the history of computer there is a plethora of devices predating the invention of microprocessor and rightly considered computers. Programma 101 had features similar to the examples listed in the history of computer with size, capabilities, and price feasible for individual use so why it should not be included among the PC? The lack of references in english about Programma 101 is related to the fact that many authors don't consider Italy as a country keen to technological innovation and so they have overlooked the Olivetti's achievement. Magnagr (talk) 23:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

It seems like quite a stretch to say that so many authors are omitting the Programma 101 out of prejudice against Italy. How about references in other languages? If only Italian sources promote it as one of the first personal computers that seems fairly weak to me. In fact these claims only add to the impression that the Programma 101 is being pushed on wikipedia by pro-Italian interests rather than neutral ones. That said, if I were writing the article without regard to Wikipedia policy, personally I would include the Programma 101 and Xerox Alto (and any other similar pre-microprocessor computers) as obvious steps in the process - but the question is what wikipedia policy and guidelines indicate. I think if we applied this same scrutiny to some of the other machines mentioned they would also not be found to be described as personal computers by reliable sources, so perhaps it is not necessary that they be so explicitly described. I'm not clear on how WP:OR applies here, it's an interesting situation. —DIY Editor (talk) 00:43, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

This book by Tom Lean covers the 101 as among the precedessors of the Altair. I think the reason it's usually omitted is that it was not microcomputer based. Dicklyon (talk) 02:20, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Re: "other machines mentioned" - the history section reads like there is a mix up between small computers/minicomputers and a "personal computer". There is allot of text space given to small (half ton? Half a million dollar?) academic and engineering computers. The history section takes 9 paragraphs to get to what are considered to be PC's, small affordable computers intended for anyone - some notable predecessors are hit on before that but are kinda skipped over. Xerox Alto/PARC belongs in the history because that is the foundation of GUI. That the Programma 101 is "rightly considered (a) computer", but other than fitting on a desk, it has little to do with a personal computer. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

The history is a bit uneven, for sure, but covering the various precursors seems like a good idea. Things were "personal" and "computer" in different ways. The 101 is important as it was a genuine end-user-programmable stored-program computer, desktop size, and affordable, in the 1960s. Sure, it was specialized for numerics, and sold as a calculator, but it was still a computer, and personal. Dicklyon (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

As the article reads now it differentiates PCs from things like smartphones, which are much more clearly "personal" and "computers" than the Programma 101. The question is not so much what led up to PCs, but what is clearly called a PC, or clearly included in mainstream histories of the PC. —DIY Editor (talk) 09:52, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

An iPad is not a personal computer

I like the distinction between "personal computer" and "embedded media appliance". You can no more write your own software for an iPad than you can hack the controller on your microwave oven ( it would probably be easier to get documentation for the average microwave oven controller); an iPad (and it's ilk) is pretty much an appliance for running stuff sanctioned by the manufacturer and is in no sense a general purpose personally programmable device. You can buy a lot of different wax cylinders for your Victrola, but you're not really making music. I think we need to observe this key difference in the article. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Well if you download the SDK from Apple you can write your own software for an iPad, you just can't do so on the device itself. Though if the difference can be explained sensibly I don't object. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:48, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you could say "you can develop software for the device on the device" would that be clear enough? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

You can't run your own software for an iPad unless you pay Apple first. And you can't publish your own software for the iPad to more than 100 users unless you get Apple's approval and you surrender 30% of your sales revenue. An iPad is not a personal computer -- Wtshymanski is correct. Vyx (talk) 21:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

First of all you can write web apps for the iPad on the iPad, so this is flat out inaccurate. It also seems laughable that jail-breaking an iPad would suddenly transform it into a "personal computer" because I can get software all over the place and write apps for it on it. Next, even if the contention was true that is just a silly definition -- over 99% of PC users never write a piece of software for anything. It's pretty clear this definition was cherry picked to exclude the iPad and despite the fact that a number of programmers have latched onto this niche definition it has little bearing on the popular meaning of the word "PC". Did cars stop being cars when you had to buy the parts from Toyota? It used to be that "PCs" were 99% used by programmers and being a "personally programmable device" might have made more sense as the definition. This is no longer the reality we live in. Virtually all "PCs" now are used by non-programmers and like it or not, the ability to personally program the device is no longer integral to the "PC" definition. Let me give you an example: a large percentage of corporate machines are locked down and the user has no ability to publish software or compile code from the terminal -- they can run a limited number of predetermined applications The Company has allowed them to. Is it still a PC? Unquestionably. Like it or not so is the iPad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.252.10 (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The iPad is referred to as a PC all over Wikipedia, for the sake of consistency, it should be considered a PC here too. There are about a million other reasons, but it just seems like this has been hashed out already, and it's a PC. --Okboyfriend (talk) 22:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Well its "personal" (for the use of a single person at a time), and its a "computer" (a computing device, with a CPU, memory, storage, I/O devices, and replaceable/installable software {not an embedded device, like a router}) , so yes its a "personal computer" when you use "personal"+"computer", as a definition, but a PC (a desktop computer, probably running Windows, but maybe OS X or Linux) has many factors that make it uniquely a "personal computer" (A.K.A. PC), factors which the iPad is missing, if you use these factors to determine whether something is a "Personal computer/PC" then the iPad doesn't comply. So its really what your definition of "personal computer" is, that determines whether the iPad is one, and believe me, the decision (in general) isn't out yet. You will find almost as many opinions that say it isn't as opinions that say it is, on the Internet, precisely because there is no "official" definition of what a "personal computer" is. Mahjongg (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I like the distinction too. However as it stood it is a bit of pontificating that really doesn't belong in the lede, not unless there is something in the article about it. The (formerly) preceding sentence comparing PCs with mainframe batch and timesharing environments doesn't really belong in the lede either, for the same reason. I could definitely see putting a contrast with batch and timesharing in the "History" section. Not sure where the comparison with approved-software-only devices would go, unless a new section entitled "Evolution" or something like that was added. Jeh (talk) 05:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

"If someone can run arbitrary code on your computer without your permission, it isn't your computer any more." I think it's very important to exclude appliances that keep the user out of the inner workings out of the personal computer category - even the most benighted of Windows users has a level of control over the guts of the machine that is forever locked out of the "Ipad experience". This should be expanded upon, not swept away. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

"If someone can run arbitrary code on your computer without your permission", You mean when you have a Virus/Trojan/rootkit on your PC? LOL. With this definition no PC is safe from becoming "not a PC" overnight. Mahjongg (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Further to your redacted comment on system updates: To me this has always looked like a tailor-made express virus delivery system; once someone hijacks system update, there will be no need for other ways of spreading viruses. Oh for the days of boot-sector viruses on 360 K flopppies...a simpler era. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:58, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

These "references" for the App Store iPad thing in the lede should support that definition of PC, but they don't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Okboyfriend (talk • contribs) 12:33, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

My cheapy net-book can surf, play DVDs, read .PDF files, view Flash animations....and also do spreadsheets or talk to my GPS, program in Java as well as run my vintage Turbo Pascal Version 5 programming environment in a DOS shell, even GW BASIC! (And if I was motivated, I could run it under MS DOS or Linux as well as Windows). I can mess with the guts, even if I do wind up shooting myself in the foot. It's a general purpose machine - somewhere we explain that a personal computer is a general-purpose machine, as opposed to an "APP-liance" like a video game console, or iPad. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Rebuttal: A personal computer is general-purpose machine that is intended for use by a majority of consumers. General-purpose does not necessarily cover niche uses that a grand majority of personal computer users do not even recognize, such as "run[ning] my vintage Turbo Pascal Version 5 programming environment in a DOS shell." When evaluating the general-purpose tasks that a grand majority of traditional personal computers use, it basically comes down to: checking/writing email, web browsing, watching/listening video/music, playing games, word processing, and other similar basic tasks. Unfortunately for niche enthusiasts, these general-purpose tasks are not only available on the iPad, but also the the reasons for its astronomical growth since it first launched. A majority of traditional personal computer owners do not use their personal computers for the niche tasks outlined here. According to sales numbers if the iPad was considered a traditional computer, it would have already been the most widely sold personal computer in Q4 2012. Niche enthusiasts unfortunately feign ignorance in realizing that an increasing number of consumers are choosing a tablet over a traditional personal computer. Personal computers will continue to prevail in the coming decade with consumers, unfortunately not in the way some niche enthusiasts here would like to predict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.176.226.102 (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

It is not a PC Starguy849 (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

The definition of "personal computer" is certainly elusive. The name implies a computer designed for personal use. Any limitations of that use should be verifiable with a reliable source. Sam Tomato (talk) 20:32, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

What is the real problem with "PC vs. personal computer" comparison?

Hi.

Normally, I am not irritated when I write a talk page thread but this time I am a bit. Ever since I added the § "Personal computer" vs. "PC" section to the article, this section has met with heavy-handed treatment from a couple of editors. And I don't know why. I am fully aware that in a dispute, one sticks to WP:BRD and the same person does not revert twice. However, I am also fully aware that in case of vandalism (especially content removal), one reverts the vandal and he is not welcome. The treatment of this section this time is not like a dispute this time; only the involved editor are people whom I am wiser to commit the folly of calling them vandals. They are not; yet, their treatment is unduly heavy-handed without any apparent reason:

I am here to request a reasonable discussion: It is provable with sources that the world out there uses "PC" in a sense that is far stricter than "a general-purpose computer, whose size, capabilities and original sale price makes it useful for individuals". According to what policy must Wikipedia suppress this fact and even not write a single sentence about it?

I asking users who were directly involved in this to join: Wtshymanski, ViperSnake151 and Lonaowna. I am also asking people knowledgeable in this field to also join in: Dsimic, Jeh, FleetCommand, Andy Dingley and Guy Harris. It would be pleasure to have your input here.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 17:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

A prolific blocked sock, so prolific that they've already spawned three SPIs (Dhdhdhdffx, Morcohen2, Kaufmanitay), has been busy here and at several similar articles. They have been dumping chunks of unsourced, illiterate nonsense. When reverted, they bring it straight back. Some of this (at best) has been trite and self-evident. Much has been simply wrong, often the complete opposite of the truth. Sometimes, when reverted, they edit the new version to approximate reality a little more closely. On occasion, after a few iterations of this, they've even managed to avoid obvious gross error altogether. It is not however a useful or acceptable way to edit.

This is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. It is also the encyclopedia where everyone who chooses to edit has to follow a few basic rules too: WP:COMPETENCE, WP:V and not sockpuppeting, most obviously. They fail to do that much, they fail to discuss any reversion, they create new accounts several times a day. Enough.

At present, they're blocked. Not "their account" is blocked, but they are blocked, in all their incarnations. So blanket rollbacks per WP:DENY are entirely appropriate. It's not as if they're adding anything worth having.

If you should feel the urge to comb through the sweetcorn for that one elusive nugget of gold, then feel free to add it yourself, per WP:EVADE. Also expect to be required to demonstrate WP:V for it. I have yet to see anything from this source that suggests the effort would be anywhere near worthwhile. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:07, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you mean the other edits. In which case you and I are just Wrong, and Wtshymanski is (as always) setting us to rights, because He Knows Best. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

You don't think a whole paragraph of flabby prose, windily pontificating on brand name distinctions, complete with links to obscure philosophy and linguistic topics, is perhaps in need of a rewrite? --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I wonder, do we go on and on about dead ad campaigns for bubbly brown liquids in the article about "kola nuts" ? Do we care about the differences between Royal Crown Cola and Dr. Pepper when discussing carbonated water? The article is about "personal computers" in the general sense, we can leave the obsessive details discussion of IBM and Apple marketing to a more appropriate place. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, W., you don't like it, but I don't see that it does any harm. The ad campaign references do help establish that "PC" meaning "IBM or compatible PC" is a term widely accepted by the industry, including the PC's major competitor. I even have a reference to add... I'm searching for it. Jeh (talk) 19:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Coke would wish for such fanatical devotion to its brands as the personal computer field has. Do we really need an observation in an encyclopedia article that there's more than one brand name for anything? I haven't checked yet, but I don't think Wikipedia goes on about, oh, say, the different brands of SUVs or cars. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:12, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Your first sentence amounts to ridicule; your stooping to such does not really argue well for your belief in the strength of your position. And part of the point is that "PC" isn't a brand, not of the "IBM Personal Computer" anyway. It is useful to establish that "personal computer" is a generic term while "PC", in practice though not officially, refers to Wintel machines. There is concern over related points: I believe that recently you were arguing strenuously about the definition of "hobbyist computer" or "home computer" as it might apply to the Heath H11? DEC used to claim that the PDP-8 was the first "personal computer". Hm?

What you call "flabby", I've noticed, seems to be anything other than subject, verb, object. Granted this is nicely terse and compact and easy to understand on a per-sentence basis. It is also mind-numbing to read sentence after sentence like that.

"Goes on"? You're talking about four well-referenced sentences in an article of around 15,000 words. After your edit it was two sentences, completely unreferenced, the second one distinctly not non-flabby. It was better before you edited it. Jeh (talk) 21:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I tried to save too much of the original content. I tried nuking the whole redundant paragraph but that wasn't tolerated. I'm not impressed at the "references". --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

(rp'ing to your edit comment) Yes, it's about you, because afaict the only objections you have derive from your personal taste; I've yet to see an objectively defensible reason for deletion here. "I just don't like it" is not sufficient. One change I would make is to move it much earlier, likely as a subsection of "History". Or maybe "Types". Jeh (talk) 23:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'd like to see some expansion of this section though. Specifically:

What's the etymlogy of "PC" before the 5150 State and how widely used was it? Did machines like the Sirius / Victor 9000 use it? Earlier CP/M boxes? What was the split between "personal computer" and "PC" as an initialism?

How did this change after IBM? How rapidly did its use for non-5150 machines fall away? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:01, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

As best as I recall, the term "personal computer" was seldom used. I am confident that advertisements in magazines and such prior to the IBM PC used the term "microcomputer". I have a copy of the book "The Art of C Programming" published 1987 by Springer-Verlag, ISBN 0387963828, and in page 1 it says "a Commodore 64, Macintosh, IBM PC or any of the other home micros (or personal computers as the upmarket salesmen prefer to call them)". So in 1987 the term "personal computer" was new enough that it was still being resisted. Sam Tomato (talk) 20:45, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

BYTE magazine, July 1979, page 11 shows a "Compucolor" ad with the copy "I've finally found a personal computer I respect." So the usage was common enough in 1979 that copywriters didn't feel the need to explain the term. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Hey everyone! I've reviewed about a hundred revisions of this article and read it carefully (what's also visible by numerous cleanups I've performed while reading). With all that in mind, and based on what's presented in the Personal computer § "Personal computer" vs. "PC" section, I'd say that the content itself is perfectly fine but it should be dissolved into another section; Personal computer § History might be a good destination.

The same should apply to the Personal computer § PC gaming section, which might be dissolved into Personal computer § Applications. Dissolving these two short sections would also benefit the overall layout of the article, which is IMHO pretty nicely written and laid out. Thoughts? — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 13:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I would strongly favour keeping the naming issue out of any broader "history" section. There are two history issues here, one about "personal computers" (the computers that people buy to put on their desks), another about the IBM 5150 PC itself (why IBM chose the x86 architecture, single speed disks, a half-empty case, MS-DOS etc). Even coverage of that history has already run into the same dichotomy, so we have to address it in a clear fashion that's findable before diving deeper into the two histories. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I also favor a separate section but I wouldn't mind making it a subsection of history.

I think there are additional things to do, after what ViperSnake151 said above. First, the article must stop using the word "PC" alone (excluding compound names such as "Pocket PC" or "IBM PC") to refer to personal computers. Second, lead must indicate the distinction. And third, which I think is uncontroversial, the duplicate citation in the lead must be merged into their originals in § "Personal computer" vs. "PC".

Any comments on this?

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 01:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe some kind of a compromise could be to subsection the Personal computer § History section further, as it's quite hard to read in its current form? In all that content from the Personal computer § "Personal computer" vs. "PC" section might be moved around. Speaking of using "PC" as an acronym, I agree that "personal computer" should be used instead whenever it doesn't refer to what "PC" usually stands for. Also, the lead section should have a more clear explanation of what "PC" usually stands for, in its opening sentence; the explanation is already in its fourth paragraph, but that might be a bit too late. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 02:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

PC

[Expunged] - Starguy849 (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Zachary.Underwood (talk) 22:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Consider merging this with computer

In my personal opinion I don't see too much of a difference between computer and personal computer it might be worth merging these two articles into one article. They are after all the same thing essentially, although computer is slightly more ambiguous. Zachary.Underwood (talk) 21:59, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose If there is consensus that there isn't much difference then we probably need to improve the articles so the difference is more apparent, not merge them. Jeh (talk) 22:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Pretty big difference, and a huge difference in their history. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Makes me wonder if proponent has looked at the two articles. Personal computer deserves special treatment in its own article. This would overwhelm the other. —DIYeditor (talk) 00:09, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The world existed before 1981. --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Declining global PC sales

I'm a little surprised that more recent data on declining global PC sales aren't being added to the article. 2017 IDC data (-4.3%) and 2017 Gartner data (-3.3%) are available. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 00:26, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Compared to smartphone and other mobile device sales, it appears that computing power is going mobile.

References

Mobile can't replace applications with high hardware requirements yet such as cutting edge games with high specifications required. Not to mention plenty of genres of PC games cant be played comfortably or even effectively on mobile. Xanikk999 (talk) 05:11, 23 December 2017 (UTC)