Talk:Pet Shop Boys

The Economist references Pet Shop Boys

An article on homosexual lives around the world used section headers that were Pet Shop Boys song titles.

http://www.economist.com/news/letters/21629213-letters-editor

Might be useful to demonstrate their influence. Mdnahas (talk) 15:53, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Not gay?

If they weren't gay, and their lyrics were gender neutral, why not display 'New York City Boy' in their discography? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.140.111.29 (talk) 05:06, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

missing references, old ref's, 'best duo's ever '?

The link to the Guinness book of records reference (reference 9) actually takes you to the Wikipedia page about the Guinness book of records, which (obv) contains no mention of the Pet Shop Boys. In-line references, which link to other Wikipedia pages, should be made using two square brackets at the start and end of the term; ie name of referenced page. If that page exists, that link will turn blue. If not, it will turn red, like the example above.

The existence of a wiki page about a general topic (in this case, about the Guinness book of records) does not count as proof of any specific references or quotes derived from inside the GBOR. It's impossible to check whether the info given is actually correct without a proper reference or link.

In any case, the point the reference is supposed to prove (about the success of the Pet Shop Boys) was apparently derived from the 1999 edition of the GBOR (ie 20 years ago). Any world records from that time will almost certainly have been broken or superseded since then, and if not, the particular world record\s they hold should be specified.

The GBOR does not usually make generalised comments or personal judgments like those quoted on this page, ie that the Pet Shop Boys are "..one of the best duos worldwide ever" or even "one of the bestselling duos". They're either the bestsellers in the world (so hold the record) or they're not (and don't). Im prepared to be proven wrong there, should appropriate refs can be provided. If not, those sections should (and will!) be removed. Thanks Codeye (talk) 04:56, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

No use of article?

Why is it not The Pet Shop Boys? Wolf O'Donnel (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

You'd have to ask them. They don't use "The" on their records. -- Beardo (talk) 13:58, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Not New Wave

On Wikipedia, none of their singles, albums, or any other releases are labeled with the new wave genre.

The same is true for all of their releases on Discogs, Rate Your Music, and AllMusic.

Here is a quote from Discogs:

'The synth-pop genre, though, primarily originates in late 1970s/early 1980s New Wave, the post-punk "alternative" rock movement that encompasses a wide range of styles and attitudes. There are some non-New Wave synth-pop bands like Pet Shop Boys, but on the whole, the synth-pop scene of the 1980s was dominated by a faction of New Wave bands that embraced the use of electronic instruments and relatively light, dance-oriented songwriting, yet still retained a fairly typical four-piece rock-band structure (percussion, lead instrument, bass instrument, vocal).'

Source: https://www.discogs.com/style/synth-pop — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msftwin95 (talk • contribs) 05:52, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually, Actually is shown as new wave, with a citation. -- Beardo (talk) 13:57, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, the last time I checked it wasn't but you're right. @Hiddenstranger added it on 15 May. If you look on his Talk page he's been criticized for disruptively adding new wave to genre lists for over a decade. Even if he can find sources for his opinions, I don't think the point of view of one user should determine what is and isn't new wave across Wikipedia, especially since his edits tend to put Wikipedia pages in conflict with most every other online music database on the Internet. Msftwin95 (talk) 21:06, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Msftwin95 Thanks for starting a discussion, but please do not exaggerate with your deceitful claims that I've "been criticized for disruptively adding new wave to genre lists for over a decade" which is totally not true at all. You saw just the one title on my talk page from 2010 - "New Wave List - Request You Slow Down" - that was for the page List of new wave artists which lists new wave artists, not genres, so that discussion was not about me adding the genre "new wave" to genre lists, as you claim. I was still new to Wikipedia that time and the user said "Even though what you are doing is being done in good faith..." and later commended me saying "Good new additions to the list" which means every entry I added to that list were reliably sourced. This is the same with my additions to the Pet Shop Boys (or any other article) - if I added new wave, it is because citations to reliable sources exist. It's right to start a discussion for consensus, but you can't feel the need to start removing reliably sourced material just to suit your own point of view. I presume you know Wikipedia rules, one of those being that genres must be reliably sourced, so there's nothing I'm doing which goes against. And it is not my own opinion; there are many sources out there that support my addition of the new wave genre to such articles. Also you can't use Discogs and Rate Your Music to back up your argument - those are user-generated and cannot be used on Wikipedia. By the way I just added the genre to "West End Girls" - see the sources provided. Hiddenstranger (talk) 02:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok, but I'd like to ask you what exactly you're getting out of all this. Are you trying to make new wave and synth-pop synonymous? Is that your goal? Many synth-pop bands are closer to disco music than new wave; Neil Tennant himself has repeatedly referred to the Pets as a disco group but has never referred to his music as "new wave" as far as I can tell. Continue adding new wave to pages where it doesn't belong all you like, but each time I will add the correct genre (usually disco/hi-nrg/dance-pop) and place it in front. Msftwin95 (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Rather than quizzing others on what they are trying to prove, why don't you acknowledge that Wikipedia is intended to summarize the literature? The literature plainly states that the Pet Shop Boys are known as a new wave group, even describing them as "defining", which is huge. Our job as editors is to determine the proper weight of genres as represented in the sources, not as determined by individual editors who don't like something they see in print. Binksternet (talk) 21:26, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Sure, but they were also described as disco/hi-NRG at least as often by themselves and by contemporaries, so if Hiddenstranger intends to add (mostly 21st century) sources describing the Boys and their songs as new wave, then I can and will find sources describing them as hi-NRG/disco (as they were in fact known at the time). Msftwin95 (talk) 21:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Your source for Hi-NRG in the "West End Girls" article was just talking about how previous Hi-NRG songs inspired the writing of "West End Girls". That is nowhere near strong enough to establish a musical genre for the song, so I removed it. Do you have a stronger source for Hi-NRG here? Binksternet (talk) 00:30, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Not at the moment, but I may find one yet. Msftwin95 (talk) 01:02, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, whether the Pet Shop Boys described themselves as this or that genre is not definitive. WP:SECONDARY sources define the topic. The opinion of the musical artist is interesting to the reader but not defining to the topic.

Retrospective reviews are generally valued higher than contemporary reviews which are blind to later developments. The viewpoints of 21st century critics should be given somewhat higher weight. Binksternet (talk) 00:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Binksternet. I've noticed that the List of new wave artists links to Pet Shop Boys, but the reverse isn't true, nor do Pet Shop Boys discography, Please (Pet Shop Boys album), and New wave music link back to said list. I didn't feel comfortable creating a § See also just for one link. What are your thoughts? — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 18:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I have no problem with a relevant link added to "See also", as long as the link isn't already present in the article. Binksternet (talk) 18:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I wanted to pipe in here. Not to condone the actions of the anonymous editor who removed a sourced genre, but I think this is a case of the different understandings of 'New Wave' in the UK and USA. To a British reader, calling the Pet Shop Boys 'New Wave' seems frankly bizarre (also see @Ceoil's comment), just as it would to call Bronski Beat or Wham! thusly. In the UK, the 'New Wave' basically referred to punk artists from the late Seventies who had a more pop-friendly style. In Britain, the defining New Wave band was probably the The Jam, whose page I edited recently to make this distinction clear. The term 'New Wave' largely went into disuse after 1980, in favour of the New Romantics and synth-pop (which were quite distinct from the New Wave, in fact, as I've tried to demonstrate). For more on this, I wrote about what 'New Wave' meant to Britons as opposed to Americans here and here. As @Msftwin95 (I quote them despite some past disagreements) alluded to, there are many interviews of Neil Tennant from the Eighties where he talks about how he went from being a Clash and Elvis Costello-listening 'New Wave snob' to a Disco fanatic and singer for a disco group (the PSBs) thanks to Chris Lowe, so I'm sure Tennant would be rather bemused as well to see his disco/pop band described as 'New Wave'. All in all, since the PSBs are an English rather than an American artist, I think the UK perspective should be prioritised, or at least included alongside the American one. Looking at the edit history, it seems the anonymous editor added Hi-NRG in place of New Wave, seemingly using one of the sources on the List of Hi-NRG artists and songs page. Based on how they were perceived in the UK, this is in fact a much more accurate description of the group's style than New Wave, so in my view it would not be unreasonable to make this change, and then place New Wave in a newly created musical style section for the page (which is currently lacking). Or, since this is usually done in order to limit the number of infobox genres to four, perhaps it would be best to return to the four genres listed on the AllMusic page (synth-pop, dance-pop, disco, and house) and put the others in the musical style section? Thoughts @Binksternet? Janglyguitars (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

You have this UK/US difference theory which is not supported widely by sources. You have shared your theory several times before, but it still doesn't have support. So no, I don't believe we should follow your suggestion. Binksternet (talk) 20:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, the main page for New Wave actually used to talk about the difference between the US and UK definitions, but I guess it must have been scrubbed out at some point. All I can say is that whatever New Wave meant to British people who lived through the time, it most certainly did not mean the Pet Shop Boys, but for whatever reason many Americans seem to have thought so, and I haven’t seen any better explanation for why this and many similar discrepancies exist than mine. In any case, since the Hi-NRG addition actually did contain proper sourcing, I will add it back in. Janglyguitars (talk) 20:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

There was a problem with one of the hi-NRG sources not actually calling the group hi-NRG. Rather, it said that previous hi-NRG songs inspired the group. So let's not use that source to define a genre. Binksternet (talk) 22:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes new wave

Plenty of sources point to new wave. Listed below. Binksternet (talk) 02:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

• Apple says "Tennant’s reserved vocals and Lowe’s crisp instrumentation added a sardonic existentialism to New Wave."
• Rolling Stone says "New Order and Pet Shop Boys—two of the defining acts of the U.K. post-punk and new wave scene"
• Los Angeles Times says "They have one foot in early ‘80s New Wave and the other on the dance floor. Other British groups have tried to marry New-Wavish rock with disco, but only the Pet Shop Boys have done it consistently well."
• Consequence magazine says "New Order and Pet Shop Boys... The new wave legends"
• CNN wrote "Pet Shop Boys hit the music sales charts on both sides of the Atlantic with the New Wave single 'West End Girls.'"
• Anthony Savona says on page 97 of his book Console Confessions that "...Pettibone found himself in the eye of the pop hurricane, where New Wave acts such as Pet Shop Boys, Thompson Twins, New Order, and Erasure were spinning out an enormous web of dance songs..."
• Jake Brown says on page 152 of his book Behind the Boards that "...constructing synth-pop/new wave dance hits with groups like the Pet Shop Boys and New Order..."
• Alistair Lawrence says on page 171 of his book Abbey Road: The Best Studio in the World that "British duo Pet Shop Boys and Swedish trio a-ha were two examples of the new wave of electronic pop..." Binksternet (talk) 02:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

No, no-wave

Hi Binksternet, New Wave is obv the American term for what is now described in the UK as post-punk. I'm not convinced by those links; maybe part of the new wave of "electro pop"...as their roots are very different to say Talking Heads, and more to do with Kraftwerk presentaion/melodies and Giorgio Moroder basslines. Re your links, Joy Division and early New Order were post-punk, mid period new order were electro; since 1994 they are just light weight indie (imo). Ceoil (talk) 12:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not convinced either. New Wave is a notoriously misused term, especially among Americans. The Pet Shop Boys' AllMusic biography describes them as synth-pop, dance-pop, disco, and house but makes no mention of New Wave. AllMusic biographies are considered authoritative and are one of the most common references used for sourcing music genres, so I'll change the Wikipedia page to match. Let's hope it stays. Msftwin95 (talk) 17:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

New Wave implies lineage from Ramones/talking heads etc; PTB come from Disco, Hi-NRG and early 70s electro. Ceoil (talk) 01:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Page blurb/preview pranked

I'm not an editor, and don't know where to fix this, but if you Google "Pet Shop Boys", the Wikipedia result's preview text mentions the band "sticks hamsters up their arse". There is no authorized source I could find that confirms the band members share just one ass, so I believe this could be erroneous. 99.89.47.148 (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Disregard it. Someone probably vandalized the page, and then a web browser happened to cache it while the vandalism was displayed. Wikipedia will display the live version of its articles. If you need to review a previous edit, see the View history tab at the top. Thank you for your concerns. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 17:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Why ‘The’ Pet Shop Boys

Other articles don’t begin ‘The Duran Duran’ or ‘The U2’ so why does this begin ‘The Pet Shop Boys’? It should just be ‘Pet Shop Boys are………’ 2A00:23C6:D000:1C01:19DE:5008:627B:8A0B (talk) 23:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

It's just how English works. DuncanHill (talk) 23:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)