Talk:Petite messe solennelle

la sacré musique

sacré can be translated with holy, sacred, hallowed but also blasted, damned. In this context "sacré" is more likely the opposit of sacred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geichler (talk • contribs) 12:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Original name

I would like to see mentioned that the French write fr:Petite messe solennelle, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Music analysis section added from French article

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hpschd76 (talk • contribs) 13:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)‎

First public performance of the orchestrated version

The date for this according to multiple sources [1] was 24 February 1869—not 28 February as was in the article. I've fixed that. The current reference (Hurwitz, 2010) also gives the 24th. It was performed in the Salle Ventadour of the Théâtre-Italien in Paris. This is an online reference you can use for the exact theatre:

• Casaglia, Gherardo (2005). 24 Febbraio 1869. Almanacco Amadeus. Retrieved 30 May 2016 (in Italian).

I didn't add it myself because the referencing format is rather complicated and I didn't want to make a mess of it. Voceditenore (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, especially for the date, - I saw both and should not have drawn conclusions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Petite messe solennelle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 21:59, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Will do this soon. JAGUAR  21:59, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in getting to this, I haven't forgotten; I'm merely holding back as I note that Cassianto has made comments on the talk page. I'd be more than happy to start if you don't feel too pressured... JAGUAR  21:43, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Go ahead, I'll go to sleep ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll shut up Jaguar and let you get on with it. Cassianto^Talk 12:29, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Initial comments

• "at the request of count Alexis Pillet-Will" - 'Count' needs capitalising

agree --GA

• "but Rossini labeled it, not without irony" - labelled (British English)

will I ever learn? - British English at School, US when I lived there --GA

• "The mass was possibly commissioned by count Alexis Pillet-Will" - needs a capital 'C' again

done --GA

• "but the composer labeled it "petite" with a grain of irony" - petite needs italicising as it is French, also labelled (if you want to stay consistent with British English)

yes --GA

• "The second piano plays only occasionally, and then merely doubles the first piano for most of the time." - needs a citation

removed sentence altogether, better in scoring section with more precision --GA

• "hôtel of Louise, comtesse de Pillet-Will" - this is in French, so it either needs italicising or quotation marks (I'm learning French, so I can actually understand this ;-D)

not sure, because it's a name --GA

• "The countess is the dedicatee of this refined and elegant piece" - capital needed

Actually, lowercase "countess" is correct here. When used with a name, it is a title, and therefore capitalized; alone, it's an identification of rank, and therefore lowercase. ("The countess is" vs. "Countess Louise is"; the same would be true of duke and baron and other noble ranks and titles.) BlueMoonset (talk) 00:49, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, absolutely right. That was a mistake on my part. JAGUAR  11:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• "he requested permission from the pope to perform the work with female voices at a church" - how about female vocals?

I confess that I would not know what vocals would mean, - I'd accept "female singers" --GA

• "When it failed, he demanded that the orchestral version would only be performed after his death" - when what failed? I think When his request was rejected sounds clearer

taken --GA

• "The composer preferred the chamber music version anyway" - this sentence seems a iffy. How about something like Regardless, the composer preferred the chamber music.

not sure I fully understand "regardless", not regarding what? --GA

• "Music critic Filippo Filippi in la Perseveranza was full of praise" - informal

another relict from the older version, changed to "noted" --GA

• I would recommend merging the two smaller paragraphs of the Scoring section to improve prose flow

I hear you but no, one for piano, one for orchestra, one for comparison, - should not go with the orchestra, imo --GA

• "Judgments about the two versions diverge" - Judgements

yes --GA

• "Some musicologists argue that the orchestrated version is nowadays preferred to the original" - try contemporary version?

no, but we could say "today" instead of "nowadays" --GA

• "insertion of an instrumental offertory and/or a motet" - this divide can't be used in text, only in quotes

then what? --GA

• "The Kyrie and Gloria form Part I, the other movements Part II" - missing noun; the other movements form Part II

missing verb? - tried, but would not like to repeat the same --GA

• "According to Claire Delamarche, these represent the three blows of the staff" - this should be explained as Les trios coups in brackets

will think about how, perhaps my French expert can help? (perhaps even write the missing article?) --GA

• "He transposed an earlier composition. It became customary to include it even in performances and editions with piano(s)." - unsourced

will look for one source, but all editions cited, beginning with the first edition ever, have the movement, which is summarized by the sentence (I haven't heard a single performance without it) --GA

• "Then the movement returns to the introduction, with its soft chords interrupted by rests, and ends with a few strong hammered chords" - try Afterwards, the movement...

if you say so, - it's a big contrast of mood, perhaps there is even a better wording, asking a musical helper --GA

• The last source in the bibliography is dead

inherited, removed, not cited anyway --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:09, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Those were all of the issues I found during my first read-through. Overall, nice work on this! It's comprehensive and mostly well written for the subject. I'll leave this on hold now and will see how things proceed. JAGUAR  22:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for good helpful comments, I fixed what I could, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:09, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I've read through the article again and concludes that this meets the criteria. With all of the issues addressed, this should be good to go! Well done JAGUAR  11:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, encouraged to go for FA later, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

A nudge in the (hopefully) right direction

I see that the ever helpful Jaguar has kicked off the GA review. I'll assist here by noting some minor observations:

Publication

• The end of the first para will need a cite.

duplicated --GA

• "...by Oxford, Carus-Verlag and Novello, the latter however again has only one piano part." --Awkward. I'd remove "however again", or separate each with commas.

tried differently to say politely that one is a disappointment --GA

Scoring

• "In its original version, the performance of the mass required four soloists (soprano, contralto, tenor and bass), a mixed choir of ideally twelve singers including the soloists, two pianos and harmonium, which sometimes could be replaced by an accordion, according to the first idea of Rossini, but was considered too "popular" for a religious framework at the time of the creation." -- a little too long for comfortable reading.

that was one of the sentences from the version before I expanded, - feel free to improve --GA

• "In 1867..." -- Comma? Or no comma? Used elsewhere, but not here. It should really be consistent.

it's a repetition from the history section, - I sometimes place a comma for clarity, no comma for speedier flow, - sorry that inconsistency is one of my trademarks ;) --GA

Structure

• End of first para closes with no cite.

now has one to the preface of the vocal score, which is the only place where that (Part I/II) is mentioned, it begins with "I Kyrie", but followed by "2 Gloria", and never a "II". --GA

More, anon... Cassianto^Talk 08:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for thorough reading before I could even something about recordings, - possibly tomorrow ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2016 (UTC)