Talk:Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Österreichs

Requested move

most English sources (including WOSM and WAGGGS) use the German name; also: wrong translation into English (there are different translations possible like Austrian Scouts and Guides, Boy Scouts and Girl Guides of Austria, Boy and Girl Scout Association of Austria and so on. None of these is clear, since there are more Scouting associations in Austria with - translated into English - very similar names.) --jergen 18:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support-Jergen shows great judgment in his articles, most English speakers will hunt for the topic with the English key words, and this will allow for more information on other existing orgs. Chris 01:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:NC Use English. The official (German) website http://www.ppoe.at translate the name in to English as "Austrian Boy Scouts and Girl Guides". Their international (English) page http://www.ppoe.at/int uses "Austrian Boy Scouts and Girl Guides" with no reference to the name in German --Philip Baird Shearer 22:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • As explained above, different translations are possible, the World Organization of the Scout Movement translates Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Österreichs to Scouts and Guides of Austria, but uses normally the German term. The World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts doesn't translate the name. Checking with Google:
    • Pfadfinderinnen und Pfadfinder Österreichs 22,600 hits
    • Austrian Boy Scouts and Girl Guides 111 hits
    • Scouts and Guides of Austria 1,320 hits (most copies of the WOSM-list)
    • Austrian Scouts and Girl Guides 198 hits (most Wikipedia-mirrors)
• Oppose. Google hits are a lame way to determine English encyclopedic usage. Of course the German name gets more hits if you don't even bother with an English-only search. (Only 425 when I tried) LuiKhuntek 23:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Please remember also that translations may be ambigious. There are at least two more Austrian Scout associations that can be translated to "Austrian Boy Scouts and Girl Guides" or to "Scouts and Guides of Austria". --jergen 08:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Österreichs is a proper name of an organization that does not have a (officially) translated name (unlike the United Nations or the European Union for example). I think - I cannot prove that though - that PPÖ is internationally used. And as a matter of reciprocity: In the German Wikipedia English proper names are usually not translated either (some examples: de:Boy Scouts of America, de:NASA, de:OPEC, de:United States Marine Corps, etc.) --Wirthi 15:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Reciprocity should not come into it. We decide the policies for the English Wikipedia here and they decide the policies for the German Wikipedia there. As each wikipedia is a separate project there is no reason for the two to be the same, and equally no reason for them to be in balance.Sumahoy 22:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Support I support Jergen's position. Rlevse 12:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose English terms should be preferred unless it is problematic to produce a reliable translation, which is not the case here. The foreign name isn't even recognizable as the name of a scouting body. Sumahoy 21:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Result

Moved. Although it would be nice if someone put the translated version instead... just a personal note. WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 01:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up

The name was changed without any explanation ... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pfadfinder_und_Pfadfinderinnen_%C3%96sterreichs&diff=33194930&oldid=32857015 I checked out the National Scout Organisations, and the name of this organization in English is Scouts and Guides of Austria. I think we should change it to that name. --evrik 22:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but this matter was settled. The translation by scout.org is incorrect; PPÖ uses both Boy Scouts and Girl Guides of Austria and Austrian Boy Scouts and Girl Guides, so there seems to be no official translation. --jergen 10:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• I read the history wrong. To me, the discussion above shows that the discussion was limited. The name as it currently is listed does not fit in with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting/RulesStandards#Article_names. The discussion is now going on at Proposed changes to non-English WOSM member article titles, so I suggest we keep our comments there. --evrik 10:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page. Moving it back while waiting for a discussion to conclude would be a purely procedural move, so it's better to leave it where it is until a definite consensus is reached. Then this and similar pages can all be moved at once, if necessary. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

---

The English translation does not comply with WP:UE since it is not commonly used; generally Scouting organization are referred to by the "native" names by both world Scouting bodies (WOSM and WAGGGS). English translations given by these institutions are only for understanding and differ even on the same website. For more details see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Translations. This article and the following examples were moved to an unsourced translation by an possible sockpuppet without relevant contribution on the discussion; after the move the mover vandalized the redirects so that they can't be overwritten. --jergen 10:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

See also the above discussion; this matter was settled some months ago by moving the article to the German title. --jergen 11:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Move back to name the org itself uses-nobody authorized the sockpuppet to move these, since the vote was leaning toward keeping the native name. Chris 19:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose moving the name from the English name. This is the best name for the English version of Wikipedia. --evrik ^(talk) 22:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment as the move by ES was disruptive and un-agreed, the article should move back to the original name until the issue at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Scouting/Translations is settled. Then it should stay there or be moved depending on the mediation outcome. Rlevse 18:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose English terms should be preferred unless it is problematic to produce a reliable translation, which is not the case here. The foreign name isn't even recognizable as the name of a scouting body. Sumahoy 21:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose English Subtitle 22:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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