Talk:Pirate Party Germany

Neutrality

Connecting a single political party to pornography is giving a wrong picture of this party and the political situation in Germany. Even unintentionally, these changes discredit the German Pirate Party and one of his newest members, a recent change removes a reference and mentions "yahporn" (under a false edit summary). I think it would be a better place to elaborate the whole pornography vs internet censorship controversy on the corresponding pages, where also more context can be given. - 83.254.210.47 (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The alleged child pornography section has ample advertence on Jörg Tauss′ article and should be removed to prevent negative bias on the article. --Goodgirl - talk to me 15:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to go so far as to say that the investigation into Tauss's accessing of child pornography is mentioned in every single reliable source on the German Pirate Party's first politically significant member. But if Tauss's move to the Pirate Party is considered significant, then the circumstances are too. Nevard (talk) 10:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Look, this article is about the German Pirate Party and Tauss is not a very significant part of it. Not everything that is sourced is relevant. I changed it to In June 2009, Bundestag member Jörg Tauss left the SPD for the Pirate Party in protest at Internet censorship in Germany aimed at child pornography. which is kind of a compromise. Anything more about Tauss should be in his article, which is conveniently linked. --Apoc2400 (talk) 10:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

No, that is nothing like a compromise. When I searched Google News for "german pirate party" in the English language media I got 16 results. One proper news story related to Tauss and the German Pirate Party, and mentioned the child porn investigation. There is also a single Spiegel story which focuses on the growth of the German Pirate Party.

Slashdot, Torrentfreak and Daily Kos blog stories (about Tauss joining the GPP) mention the child porn investigation. One Zeropaid blog story mentions Tauss joining the German Pirate Party without mentioning the child porn investigation.

Of the rest of the stories, four relate to the Swedish Pirate Party and mention the German Pirate Party only in passing. One relates to the Pirate Party being sold to some entertainment company and mentions the German Pirate Party only in passing.The Digital lifestyles blog and one Zeropaid story also discuss the Swedish Pirate Party and the German Pirate Party in passing. Hometheatermag tells us "There is also a German Pirate Party."

So, on the strength of the English language reliable sources, this page should be split about evenly between the themes of 'the German Pirate Party has experienced early rapid growth' and 'the German Pirate Party has been joined by Jorg Tauss, under investigation for procurement and possession of child pornography, who left the SPD under protest against laws that would allow the simple blocking of child porn websites.'. And the majority of the major blogs that make any major discussion of the German Pirate Party mention Jorg Tauss- and the investigation into his possession of child porn. Now, I'd imagine there are some more sources in the German language on subjects not related to Jorg Tauss, but unless you can make a better case that the investigation of Tauss should not be given at least as much weight as his opposition to censorship I don't think it's reasonable to exclude it. Nevard (talk) 11:45, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Perception in the German media seems to be different, I will get back here to state some references later. --Goodgirl - talk to me 12:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd welcome that. Nevard (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The NZZ had an article in January: Link that sums up the perception. Another example is the Taz: Link. If you do a search per site (taz, NZZ, Spiegel) and compare the number of articles, that include Tauss and the ones that don't, you will recognize, that there are only few related to Tauss. Nontheless there media, that have different results (try a search omitting Tauss), but mainly not. What is a fact, is that many more newspapers put the pirates into focus since the the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz, but not only due to Tauss. This result compared to that and another comparison using Kinderpornographie as an additional search word shows that putting the weight on Tauss and child pornography in the German Pirate Party article is biased. --Goodgirl - talk to me 05:38, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Just because English language media didn't write much about the German Pirate Party before Tauss joined don't make him the most important thing about the party. --Apoc2400 (talk) 12:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

So? Objectively prove that he is not the most important thing to happen to the party, and that his charges, as well as his professed motives, are not relevant. Nevard (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't need to objectively prove anything. Writing Wikipedia requires common sense. --Apoc2400 (talk) 09:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, here is what the German Pirate Party thinks about his profession: The Pirate Party welcomes Tauss as "one of the most experienced politicians in the areas of education, research and new media" and calls the defection the "culmination of a long chain of failures of the SPD in the areas of civil rights in the digital age and shows a dramatic loss of their credibility".[1] That's their official statement, as long as there will be no criminal conviction against Tauss there is no reason to question Tauss’ innocence and moral integrity. - 83.254.210.47 (talk) 12:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

If the investigation is mentioned here, then it should done as part of a longer section that also explains in detail his motivations to join the pirate party and his claim to have acquired the child pornography only for research as part of his parliamentary duties. Otherwise it is just misleading. But I think all of this is better off in the article about Jörg Tauss. Most sources that do mention the investigation are about the specific event of Tauss leaving the SPD and joining the pirate party, and not about the pirate party itself; in much of the media coverage about this event, the pirate party was mentioned only briefly, or even not at all. --memset (talk) 12:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Nevard, what wonders me is that you didn't add a similar description about Tauss to the Social Democratic Party of Germany. For the reason of Internet censorship laws he left his old party and he joined the Pirate Party because he looked for a place with technical expertise regarding Internet technology. [2] The controversy around child pornography is given appropriate weight in Tauss' article, where also the required context can be given e.g. that 130.000 Germans share a critical view of censorship in a petition to the parliament. [3] I can see no improvement in the Pirate Party article by dragging the whole thing here. I am not convinced why you connect one political party to child pornography, it must be obvious that non-neutral word selection paints the party negatively and leaves the reader with a biased opinion? - 83.254.210.47 (talk) 13:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, that could be because the SPD is an actual major party. It's pretty funny that you're trying to frame this in terms of 'censorship', when Tauss clearly would have been perfectly happy to stay within the SPD being reelected if it weren't for the child porn bust. That would be why reliable sources give it the same weight as the reason he claims he left. Nevard (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

No that's not what I said and it is also not what Tauss stated when he left the SPD. Verifiability lives alongside neutrality, it does not override it. Just because some sources mention child pornography it does not give justification to spread it out, such a sensitive topic asks for proper context and fair representation! I agree with the other editors, mentioning child pornography in the Pirate Party article is offtopic. It's a part of Tauus' and SPD's history and probably belongs there. - 83.254.210.47 (talk) 10:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

And neutrality is a matter of representing the sources. Interestingly, the blog link you added has 428 bytes of some random reader describing Tauss's publicly disclosed reasons for leaving- and 783 describing the context- that is, the child porn investigation. Nevard (talk) 12:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

...But I think we can safely state that the party gained wider acknowledgment in the present dispute about a state organised cleansing of web pages. The two major debates are the present debate of alleged censorship designed to block access to pages with child pornography. The problem is seen here as one of the special rights authorities want to assume beyond using the already existing laws. Problem no.2 is the so called Bundes-Trojaner debate, the debate over special spy ware official institutions want to use to access personal computers and to search them for illegal transactions. The first debate is perceived by officials of the pirate Party (as by many others) as an attempt to establish new forms of web censorship, the second is seen as a violation of Datenschutz laws - Information privacy. The article should possibly state why there is such an increase in the membership numbers of this party. It was most articulate in the present campaigns. See the articles de:Stasi 2.0, de:Zugangserschwerungsgesetz, de:Sperrung von Webseiten in Deutschland, and de:Online-Durchsuchung. I do not see why we should not give an idea of the present debate. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Does somebody feel up to translating de:Zugangserschwerungsgesetz and to explain the debate, which is quite interesting, but only partially relevant in this article? Kusma (talk) 17:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the NPOV warning can be removed by now as the article contains nothing but simple facts in no distorting manner. --91.36.17.233 (talk) 21:43, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, neutrality tag removed. - 83.254.210.47 (talk) 09:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I have contributed to the discussion about this page on WP:NPOVN and stated that the issue of the existing allegations against Jörg Tauss of illegal possession of child pornographic material should be mentioned. However, at present, the article is very short, so mentioning it would indeed be WP:UNDUE, leading to WP:NPOV problems. I'd include this issue when the article is about three times the current size, in one or two sentences.  Cs32en  21:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

UNICEF member under investigation for possesing child pornography!!!!11111 Look, Joerg Tauss is also a member of UNICEF, but does that mean that the UNICEF article needs a mention of child porn investigations? Tauss is basically a regular member of the Piratenpartei Deutschland just like thousands of other people. He got his seat in the parliament when he was still with the Social Democrats. He is just a regular member who won't return to the Parliament (he isn't on the candidate's list) and in fact he does not apply for any positions in the Pirate Party. Just a regular member! The reason why all the media talk about him is because "SPD member of parliament quits and joins the crazy pirate party! Oh, and he has child porn!" makes for a much better news headline than "German Pirate Party gets about 100 new members per day". 203.214.115.85 (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Planned laws

The article mentions planned laws, which is not quite right. Actually the law has passed voting and is only lacking formalities before coming into force. --Goodgirl - talk to me 12:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It can still be stopped by Federal President Horst Köhler. 93.221.222.23 (talk) 12:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Money

Do the election result mean that the party will get some sort of funding from the state? If so, how much? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:03, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, it does, because they had more than 0.5%, which was necessary to get campaign finance.--Gamsbart (talk) 12:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but it is limited by how much money the PPDE made on its own. Which is some member fees and donations. Rumors say that it will get about 700k EUR. But I'm not sure about that, some other sources say over 1M EUR. 203.206.245.210 (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

rumors inside the party say it will be more like 1k the first year the money is to be paid (sometime in 2010). main reason is the timeframe for the calculation of the money. but do not think i am a reliable source here either. Elvis untot (talk) 22:58, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a bit complicated. [4] You need at least 0,5% in an Europe/Germany election and you get 70 cent per (party)vote, 38 cent for every € donation; max. the same amount from the state than the party has got from other sources. There is also a max. amount divided between all partys. The amount for 2009 is decided in spring 2010, the first money is in 2011 and the amount is divided over 4 years (4 years from election to election).ger:LennStar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.64.188.53 (talk) 12:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Represented in the Bundestag

(The main discussion about Neutrality has mentioned this, but is getting somewhat too unwieldy to isolate a single topic. Therefore I split this one from it) The article falsely claims that the party was represented in the Bundestag from June to September 2009. This is the case of one delegate, Jörg Tauss, who unilaterally announced that he would be speaking for the Pirate Party after leaving his own party, the SPD. The party was however never recognized as being part of the Bundestag. Therefore the claim, as worded right now, is clearly false and should either be removed or corrected. Reference: [5] 93.217.214.3 (talk) 12:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "recognized"? How are parties officially recognized as being part of the Bundestag?

The party didn't form a faction or a group ([6]), however it is correct to say that it was represented. -- memset (talk) 10:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Please update for 2013

With discussion of German federal election, 2013. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:58, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for doing so, can anyone expand on "after a lenghty array of scandals and internal disputes which were handled unprofessionally, the party lost the trust of voters and entered a steady decline in polls"? What scandals and disputes? Can we have names, details, and so on? Ditto for "leading to the resignation of party leader Bernd Schlömer", why did he resign? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

There isnt a single large event which can be named. It is a more a large number of incidents. Basically the party engaged in lots of internal disputes about its position - be it economy (leftist vs liberal), the dealing with extremist members, gender-debates, relations to other parties or general personal disputes between members. However due the nature of the party those conflicts were carried out in the open - Twitter, Internet-forums, blogs etc. This was frequently picked up by the media. Given the very informal character of such internet-disputes, the party was labeled as very unproffessional and immature. The party was perceived as beeing more pre-occupied with itself than with the real pressing issues. As result the polls dropped and they gained only ~2% in the latest elections. Regarding Schlömer, he wants "to make place for younger people", given the timing its obv due the bad elections result in the federal election. The party still had somehow hoped for enogh votes to enter the parliament, despite the devastating pre-election polls. StoneProphet (talk) 08:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested moves

Requested move on 1 June 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 05:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

---

Pirate Party Germany → Pirate Party (Germany) – Unifying titles of pirate parties in various countries. For Germany, this means replacing an existing redirect page. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC) — JFG ^talk 06:03, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Should be moved to Pirate Party of Germany instead, as that is a more accurate translation.--Autospark (talk) 12:01, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, the official party name is "Piraten Partei", which translates to just "Pirate Party". Then we need to distinguish them from all other pirate parties called "Pirate Party" in some language and country. Besides their native names, some of those were listed as "Pirate Party (Anyland)" and some others "Pirate Party of Anyland", yet others "Anyland Pirate Party" or "Anylandian Pirate Party", all this without reference to any official translation of their local name. I chose the most wikipedian convention used on disambig pages and applied it everywhere. I think this is a consistent and defendable solution, provided that the original names are properly bolded in the lead sentence. — JFG ^talk 06:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support per rationale above — JFG ^talk 06:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - the name is clear as it is, and there is no logical reason to globalise name formats of any party, anywhere. We don't do it for Communist, Democrat(ic/s), Labo(u)r, Liberal, National(ist), Popular, Progressive, Socialist, or any other common party name, so the same rule (or lack of rule) should apply to the many Pirate parties. At least this time the proposal is polled, unlike the several other Pirate Party pages already moved sans discussion. FanN | talk | 11:04, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose this request and support move to "Pirate Party of Germany". Coreyemotela (talk) 20:17, 4 June 2014 (UTC).

• Oppose "Pirate Party Germany" is a calque of the German "Piratenpartei Deutschlands", and thus perfectly grammatically correct English. I'm also extremely sceptical to the perceived need of piratical party homogenisation. ^walk victor falk ^talk 02:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Pirate Party (Estonia) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:45, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Mistake in section: 2009 German Federal election

The section refers to the 2009 elections and says the Piraten received ~845,000 votes. This is incorrect. Those are the results for the 2013 elections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.170.28.99 (talk) 22:26, 19 June 2014 (UTC)