Talk:Poonch (town)
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Primary topic
editI'm wondering whether it won't make sense to move this article to something like Poonch (town) and make Poonch a disambiguation page that will also list the three districts. – Uanfala (talk) 07:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, not really, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indian_cities#Disambiguation. It's good the way it is. — kashmīrī TALK 09:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, this isn't the standard situation as there are several Poonch districts, and one of them is in a different country to the town. In a Pakistan context, "Poonch" isn't likely to have anything to do with this article. – Uanfala (talk) 10:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know the Pakistani context, but see WP:NWFCTM. Similarly, Kurdistan isn't a disambig page, even though in Iran it primarily denotes Ostan-e Kordestan. — kashmīrī TALK 00:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, this isn't the standard situation as there are several Poonch districts, and one of them is in a different country to the town. In a Pakistan context, "Poonch" isn't likely to have anything to do with this article. – Uanfala (talk) 10:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I think Uanfala's proposal is the best way to handle this. A cursory look at the newspaper coverage indicates that "Poonch" generally refers to the district rather than the town. See this reference for example.
Let me also point out that the Pakistani part of the "Poonch district" is the Poonch Division, not just the Poonch district, Pakistan. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:07, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- And, historically, Poonch appears to have been the region, under the old form Paranotsa. Its capital was said to be "Lohara". The modern Poonch town must have come into being during the Mughal times, when the Pir Panjal pass was developed as a highway. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:46, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Newspapers typically employ pars pro toto, so I wouldn't base the decision on that. Otherwise we would need to redirect Kupwara to Kupwara district[1], and so on. The historical use is an interesting fact but not sure it's relevant today. These days, when a person says they are going to Poonch they mean the town and not, say, Surankote; at least on the eastern side of the LoC where Poonch town is located. And primarily we have the WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY guideline. — kashmīrī TALK 09:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am not sure why we should look at the "eastern side of the LoC in particular". On the western side, "going to Poonch" would definitely mean the district. This cannot settle the debate at all. Neither is it verifiable in any way.
- Snedden's book[1] has some 80-odd references to "Poonch", which when unqualified, refer to the Poonch Jagir of the princely state. He uses "Poonch City" to talk about the town. There is also the semi-ethnicity "Poonchis", which refers to the people of the Poonch Jagir. The same goes for the Victoria Schofield book,[2] which has some 30-odd references. The weight of the sources argues against the town being the PRIMARYTOPIC. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:01, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Newspapers typically employ pars pro toto, so I wouldn't base the decision on that. Otherwise we would need to redirect Kupwara to Kupwara district[1], and so on. The historical use is an interesting fact but not sure it's relevant today. These days, when a person says they are going to Poonch they mean the town and not, say, Surankote; at least on the eastern side of the LoC where Poonch town is located. And primarily we have the WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY guideline. — kashmīrī TALK 09:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Snedden, Christopher (2015), Understanding Kashmir and Kashmiris, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-1-84904-342-7
- ^ Schofield, Victoria (2003) [First published in 2000], Kashmir in Conflict, London and New York: I. B. Taurus & Co, ISBN 1860648983
Requested move 6 May 2019
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: page moved. ___CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 17:00, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Poonch → Poonch (city) – Following up on the discussion just above. The main issue to decide is whether the town/city is the primary topic. Under normal circumstances a town would be treated as the primary topic, with the district centred on it at a disambiguated title. However, this is complicated by two factors. First, the district in question was the site of a series of significant events in the early history of the Kashmir conflict, and given the popularity and abundance of literature on the topic, it seems likely that most English readers will encounter "Poonch" referring to the district. A second complication is that this district, the Historical Poonch District, is now split between the two countries. So there is Poonch District, Pakistan alongside Poonch district, India. And even if in a contemporary context in India "Poonch" may more commonly refer to the city, in the Pakistani context the term on its own is much more likely to refer to the Pakistani district. Overall, I argue, it is very difficult to see the town as a primary topic here, so it seems best to make Poonch a disambiguation page.
The second question that needs to be decided is the new title of this article. Poonch (town), or Poonch (city), or Poonch City? I don't know enough about the way towns and cities are differentiated in the Indian context, and the results on google don't give me much to go on. – Uanfala (talk) 13:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- Support move to Poonch (town), as per above discussion. The reliable sources overwhelmingly use the term to refer to the region rather than the town. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- Support a move to Poonch (town) per nom. If anything, the region is the primary topic. — AjaxSmack 22:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
- I've created a dab page at Poonch (leaving Poonch District as a separate dab). Should the redirects Punch, India and Punch (J&K) be targeted at the dab page or the article about the town? – Uanfala (talk) 09:28, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
- To the Poonch (town). I took care of them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:23, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone who has helped to fix incoming links to Poonch. We're now down to 130, which is a big improvement but still the most linked dab page on Wikipedia. Any further help would be much appreciated. Thanks, Certes (talk) 09:48, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Cleaning things up
editToddy1, is the issue here that you would like to preserve the citation? I don't think it makes much sense to provide coordinates in the running text. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- We need to preserve the citation, not least because it is used in other places in the article.
- The coordinates are also in the infobox. If the coordinates are not mentioned in the text, then a citation should be put against them in the infobox.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, I reinstated it preserving the citation. Thanks for flagging it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Requested move 21 October 2021
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. I note that the nominator has been blocked indefinitely. There have been many, many discussions on Wikipedia before with sockpuppets, and we were able to survive. (It's especially ridiculous in an RM discussion, which is so explicitly WP:NOTAVOTE.) (non-admin closure) Neel.arunabh (talk) 00:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
– Primary topics see page views here. JantaKa (talk) 10:09, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Comment: I am aware of above closed discussion, but I think this needs one more, Since the indian Poonch district have more page views than the pakistani district so according to me it would be better to just use "Poonch district" for the indian one and disambiguish the pakistani district as it is now "Poonch district, Pakistan". JantaKa (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)- Oppose. The pageviews are not suggestive of a primary topic: according to the link above, just over a third of the total views go to the Indian town; and if we looked at the statistics for the whole year (rather than the last three weeks), then that ratio goes down to a quarter. The clickstream data also clearly indicates the absence of a primary topic: of all the readers who viewed the dab page in March this year, only 14 followed the link for the Indian town, compared with 17 for the division, 30 for the district, and 14 for the history article. – Uanfala (talk) 11:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose and speedy close - Per Uanfala. Here is a headline from an Indian newspaper just today! How can anybody claim that "Poonch" unambgiously means the Poonch town? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose, not seeing a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: Sock comments stricken off — DaxServer (talk) 08:28, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. From the data supplied by OP, over the first 23 days of October 2021, Poonch (town) got 3,780 views and Poonch district, India 3,761. How anyone can suggest there is a WP:PTOPIC is beyond me. Narky Blert (talk) 09:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.