Talk:Psi (Greek)

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A few Internet sites say that in some variants of Greek, this letter was pronounced kh, like chi is in the Greek alhpabet as we know it. Is this really true?? Georgia guy 01:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall off-hand if the letter Psi specificly was used for kh, but this is entirely possible. A number of the letters of the extended Greek alphabet did not have specific, set purposes initially, and how they were used was determined regionally. Essentially, these were extra letters to be used to represent whatever sound the locals felt they needed a letter for, and they applied it accordingly. The result was that certain characters were used to represent totally different sounds in different regions. Due to Attican accession, their version of the alphabet gained currency it it is the one we now use. Since some sounds were absent in their dialect, some letters were even stricken from the original Greek alphabet. One of these was F, which represented the sound /w/, found in Primitive Greek, and in many early dialects, but absent in Attican Greek. The Etruscans imported the letter F into Italy from a Greek province that had this sound, and it was later taken by the Romans and given its modern sound value. The Romans originally used F for /w/ and FH for /f/. Later, when they started using V for /w/, they dropped the H from the FH combination. 207.118.64.102 11:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Skull

Why is Χ used as the letter for the polygamma function when this page states it should be a Ψ? Pmadrid 02:43, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I see a psi in the equation. 207.118.64.102 11:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Skull

I am curious about this section about initial P in words in ps- being habitually dropped in Latin, and consequently "most" other languages. I have never come across this idea before, in years of study. In two years of Latin, we always pronounced the P. In German class, the same. And I have seen evidence to suggest it is pronounced in many languages, perhaps most. If what is said in this article is true, I would like to know the authority behind it.

I also think this article needs more information on the affricate character of the sound among the ancient Greeks. 207.118.64.102 11:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Skull

This is definitely true. In fact, I believe that English is the only European language in which ps is pronounced with a silent p. --Ivan 06:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is the letter spelt with a silent P?

--Greasysteve13 12:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The p was pronounced in Greek.Cameron Nedland 16:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah--Greasysteve13 13:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of name

This letter's name is pronounced "sigh". However, the Xi article says that that letter's name is also pronounced the same way in British English. Is this right?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC) I just noticed the same thing, and came here hoping to find the answer...66.71.70.134 (talk) 07:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I (Australian) pronounce it 'psi' (with the 'p'), and think of "sigh" as an American pronunciation (like pronouncing 'phi' as "fee" instead of "fie"). Can any other non-Americans confirm that 'psi' is standard in the rest of the world? LachlanA (talk) 05:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Fwiw, the Dutch pronounce it like "psee" would be pronounced in English. 82.139.87.142 (talk) 12:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

My lecturers pronounce it p-sigh. 93.96.55.141 (talk) 22:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

All three of my Greek teachers (in England) pronounced it "p-sigh". I've never heard anyone pronouce it "sigh". (Also, as for xi, I pronounce it "k-sigh", but have heard it pronounced "zigh" – never "sigh"). Is it then time for this article to be changed, at least to say that "p-sigh" is possible as well as "sigh"? I still have grave doubts about "sigh" though. 80.254.146.20 (talk) 14:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Seriously now, can we have it changed? It seems that there's a consensus that "p-sigh" is right and "sigh" possibly isn't, or only is in the USA. 92.0.208.26 (talk) 23:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

we need a reference either way, we can't just base this on a poll where everyone reminiscences about how their Greek teachers pronounced it. wiktionary says both are acceptable. Look it up on OED or something. --dab (𒁳) 11:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to use the IPA for pronunciation stuff, because.. well.. people would understand others better, because a Dutch person (like me) would pronounce "fie" like /fiː/ (like fee) and "fee" like /fɛɪ/ (that'd be something like fay). Mathyman - Font maker (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Psi and Double-vee?

Is Ψψ an ancestor of Ww? 58.187.49.218 (talk) 04:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

No. W is derived from writing two U/Vs together. It is litterally a doubled U/V. At the time, U and V were still only different presentations (allographs) of each other, so the use of "double-vee" and "double-yu" are both correct. Psi was invented as a letter for representing all the sounds in Greek that the Phoenecians didn't have letters for, and was not inherited by the Romans. VI_WS ^talk 03:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request

{{Edit semi-protected}} Something that could be added to the meanings section: In circadian physiology, ψ represents the phase relationship between a zeitgeber and a biological rhythm. Sources include some papers by Colin Pittendrigh, such as "A functional Analysis of Circadian Pacemakers in Nocturnal Rodents." Mirumirai (talk) 22:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Done -Atmoz (talk) 14:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request

The Xeno Society (http://thexeno.com) also uses the Greek Psi exclusively as their symbol as it represents at the bottom the notion of self, with the left wing represents the ideal of change, the pillar in the middle represents the ideal of governing, and finally the right wing represents the ideal of respect.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.128.198.80 (talk) 17:50, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: that society is not notable enough to attract coverage in Wikipedia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: Gangster Disciples

The Gangster Disciples article and its references, all of which I reviewed, appear to provide no support for a connection between the letter Psi and that organization. It's true that the organization's logo includes two sais, but I think that doesn't justify this particular cross-link. Please remove that line from this article. 98.247.224.9 (talk) 06:31, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done, thanks for pointing this out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:36, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 30 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) – Ammarpad (talk) 19:25, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

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Psi (letter) → Psi (Greek) – Per INCOMPLETEDAB, as Psi (Cyrillic) exists and also covers a letter. ToThAc (talk) 11:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Uncontroversial technical request. Various letters with the same name, such as Ja (Indic) and Ja (Javanese) or Ṭa (Indic), Ta (Javanese) and Ta (kana) use more specific qualifiers. Another incomplete disambiguation occurs in the main title header of He (letter) in comparison with Ge (Cyrillic) / He (Cyrillic) and He (kana). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support in favor of uniformity of names.·Carn !? 15:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I may have a theory where did this letter came from

My Theory is that "Ψ" came from the Pamphylian Sampi. Because it looks like Ψ, and one of it's sounds sounded like from Ψ. 2600:8800:5112:7500:F9EE:B252:FD43:30FC (talk) 00:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2022

For letters υ, φ, χ and ψ please change the IPA transcriptions to match those seen on other Greek letters. 87.115.190.116 (talk) 18:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The IPA transcriptions for υ, φ, χ and ψ don't match the transcriptions seen on other Greek letters:

In early Attic Greek (6th century BCE), it was pronounced [u] (a close back rounded vowel like the English "long o͞o"). In Classical Greek, it was pronounced [y] (a close front rounded vowel), at least until 1030. In Modern Greek, it is pronounced [i]; in the digraphs αυ and ευ, as [f] or [v]; and in the digraph ου as [u].

In Archaic and Classical Greek (c. 9th century BC to 4th century BC), it represented an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive ([pʰ]), which was the origin of its usual romanization as ⟨ph⟩. During the later part of Classical Antiquity, in Koine Greek (c. 4th century BC to 4th century AD), its pronunciation shifted to that of a voiceless bilabial fricative ([ɸ]), and by the Byzantine Greek period (c. 4th century AD to 15th century AD) it developed its modern pronunciation as a voiceless labiodental fricative ([f]). The romanization of the Modern Greek phoneme is therefore usually ⟨f⟩.

Pronunciation

Ancient Greek

Its value in Ancient Greek was an aspirated velar stop /kʰ/ (in the Western Greek alphabet: /ks/).

Koine Greek

In Koine Greek and later dialects it became a fricative ([x]/[ç]) along with Θ and Φ.

Modern Greek

In Modern Greek, it has two distinct pronunciations: In front of high or front vowels (/e/ or /i/) it is pronounced as a voiceless palatal fricative [ç], as in German ich or like the h in some pronunciations of the English words hew and human. In front of low or back vowels (/a/, /o/ or /u/) and consonants, it is pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative ([x]), as in German ach.

In both Classical and Modern Greek, the letter indicates the combination /ps/ (as in English word "lapse").

The remaining Greek letters have this transcription:

In phonetic terms, the Ancient Greek Ω represented a long open-mid back rounded vowel IPA: [ɔː], comparable to the "aw" of the English word raw in dialects without the cot–caught merger, in contrast to omicron which represented the close-mid back rounded vowel IPA: [o] , and the digraph ου which represented the long close-mid back rounded vowel IPA: [oː]. In Modern Greek, both omega and omicron represent the mid back rounded vowel IPA: [o̞] or IPA: [ɔ̝]. 87.115.190.116

This is so all Greek letters have the same format for IPA transcription.

(talk) 14:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I still cannot figure out what exactly you want changed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:37, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Change redirect target for Psi (letter)

The page "Psi (letter)" should redirect to Psi as there are multiple letters with the name Psi, the Greek letter and the Cyrillic letter. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)