Talk:Punjabi language/Archive 1

Ward

Editing by non-native speakers

"Lahore has 86% native Punjabis of total population of the city. and Islamabad the Capital of Pakistan has 71% Native Punjabis of total population."

this is just a hunch here, but i've got a sneaking suspicion that whoever wrote these two sentences is a native punjabi speaker who doesn't have a firm grasp of english grammar. please leave editing english wikipedia to the native english speakers, and stick to editing in your native language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.46.43 (talk) 20:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I’m pretty sure that runs directly counter to WP:BB. Even non-native speakers can contribute useful information. —Wiki Wikardo 14:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear 99.234.46.43, As a non-native English speaker, I have a sneaking suspicion you do not have very much to say into quality of English language. There are lots of people capable of producing better-than-average English, though their native tongue might even belong to some other group than Indo-European language group (unlike Punjabi, which does belong to the group). BTW, American English is not the only English spoken in en.wikipedia.org, I have "a sneaking feeling" the US is nowadays a minority in users, though percentage in editors might be closer to 50. I suggest you concentrate on fixing what you can instead of telling voluntary writers not to add information, though sometimes the language is not even on the level of your comment above. Yours sincerely, Meathead (Archie Bunker's son-in-law) Seikku Kaita (talk) 16:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

About Gujranwala and Sialkot

I cannot understand the bullshit which place the accent and form of punjabi spoken in Gujranwala and Sialkot in the same position. Being from Gujranwala I can surely tell you that form of punjabi spoken in Sialkot has an accent just like the language spoken in neighbouring Jammu. On the other hand the form of punjabi spoken in Gujranwala is closest to the form spoken in Wazirabad, Gujrat and sheikhupura district of Pakistani punjab. I really do not understand this bull shit classification of Majhi where Sialkot is put together with Gujranwala, whereas the punjabi spoken in these two cities is way different. Yes Lahori punjabi is closer to Gujranwala. But Gujranwala language is more rough and crude just like that of Wazirabad and Gujrat but certainly not like Sialkot. And to tag Gujranwala form of punjabi with any indian city is the biggest bull shit of this world, I live in Germany and have met Sikhs from Amritsar, guys we speak way differently. In Gujranwala we speak the most standard crude form of punjabi but our accent is more closer to western punjabi and we make fun of indian form of speaking punjabi.

Regards Gujranwalian

I know what your talking about, but it depends on the person you meet from Sialkot as within the Sialkot district there are numerous variations such as the aforementioned northern Sialkot dwellers who shares some similarity with speakers from Jammu. Inhabitants from southern and western Sialkot, for the most part are part of the same Panjabi contiguam as that spoken in Gujranwala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.63.220.150 (talk) 22:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Dominant Language in Pakistan

Only cities in pakistan where proper punjabi language is spoken are lahore, shekhupura , Gujranwala, Sialkot , Gujrat, Kasoor, Okara, Sahiwal , Faisalabad. Then there are cities where proper punjabi is spoken partially they include mandi bahudin, Hafizabad pakpattan , Khanewal ,toba tek sing and bahawalnagar. This makes only 50 percent of pakistani punjab. The rest of pakistani punjab speaks different forms of jangli, siraiki ,pothohari and hindko lanuages which in pakistani punjab are considered quite distinct languages. The reason is we proper punjabi speakers of pakistani punjab are more or less unable to communicate with them in punjabi since we cannot understand jangli,siraiki ,pothohari and hindko. I say this because I live in gujranwala pakistan and I have travelled to multan where siraiki is spoken and rawalpindi where pothohari is spoken and from my experience I can tell you it is impossible for us to understand them properly in their language. As a result we use URDU lanuage which is the lingua franca of pakistan to communicate with siraiki, pothohari speaking people of pakistani punjab. URDU is also used by punjabis to communicate with the pakhtuns, sindis , balochis and the people of northern Pakistan. I consider Urdu as a blessing of God for pakistani people since all pakistanis can communicate with one another using Urdu.

Hence the bottom line is URDU is the lingua franca of pakistan and is the dominant language of pakistan for multiple reasons.

Muhammad Usman Gujranwala Pakistani Punjab

Punjabi is very widely spoken but not as widely as Urdu. We in Pakistan communicate with each other in Urdu. I am a Punjabi and I live in Rawalpindi, I can understand Siraiki, potohari, jangli, hindko with no trouble whatsoever. And I speak for many people. All these dialects have the same script, same grammar and same word order. My Urdu speaking relatives from Karachi who have lesser exposure to Punjabi can also understand all these dialects with a little difficulty. These are only different dialects and can no way be termed as distinct languages.

Adil

137.205.108.16 (talk) 23:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Punjabi is the dominant language in Pakistan? I would have sworn Urdu was!

And that's the controversy. Opinions differ widely, and I know very little about this - that's why I restricted myself to copyediting and reference-finding here.

A number of web-based sources complain bitterly about Punjabi being

• widely spoken
• not the official language

However, they are visibly campaigning websites on one side of this argument. We need someone with local knowledge to clue us in. -- The Anome

Ah! This looks like a good reference: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Pakistan -- The Anome

It depends on what is meant by "dominant language". Punjabi is a dominant language in Pakistan in that it is spoken by majority of people as their mother language. It is not a "dominant language" in the sense that it does not have any official recognition. The media is based on Urdu and the government conducts all its activity in Urdu. Punjabi in Pakistan is sort of like a huge giant that nobody likes and would like to ignore. However it is too big and important to ignore.

I hope the (mini-)article now looks better - time for real experts to have a hack at it. -- The Anome

No urdu is only spoken my un-patroitic immigrants called Muhajirs who are tearing the city of karachi apart through the medium of the MQM :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aarandir (talk • contribs) .

THIS IS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE PAKISTANIS MAKE. PUNJABI WHICH MANY CALL PUNJABI IN PAKISTAN IS ACTUALLY LAHORI OR MAJHAILI, A DIALECT OF PUNJABI CONSIDERED TO BE THE STANDARD PUNJABI AS IT HAS BEEN INFLUENCED BY ALL OTHER DIALECTS I.E DOABI, SERAIKI, MALWAI, PAHARI, MIRPURI, JANGLI AND POTHOHARI BEING CENTRALLY LOCATED IN THE CENTRAL REGION OF PUNJAB THAT IS LAHORE, KASUR, AMRITSAR, GURDASPUR, GUJRANWALA, SHEIKHUPURA ETC.. PUNJABI IS THE COMBINATION OF ALL DIALECTS OF PUNJAB REGION. SERAIKI AND HINDKO MAYBE ASSERITING LINGUISTIC STATUS AS OPPOSED TO BEING PUNJABI DIALECTS FOR POLITICAL REASONS, BUT HISTORICALLY THEY FORM OUTER PUNJBAI DIALECTS(FOR EXAMPLE THE WORD HINDKO IS GIVEN BY PUSHTO SPEAKERS TO THE FIRST INDO-ARYAN LANGUAGE THAT NEIGHBOURS THEM, OR ACTUALLY ITS PRETTY MUCH THE AREA THEY OCCUPIED FROM HINDKOWANS WHO ARE THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE OF PESHAWAR VALLEY AND AREA TO THE EAST AND SOUTH). SERAIKI DID NOT EVEN EXIST AS A WORD IN PUNJAB BEFORE THE 70'S, IT IS ACTUALLY A SINDHI WORD MEANING 'NORTHERN' WHICH WAS USED FOR CENTURIES FOR THE DIALECT OF NORTHERN SINDHI WHICH IS VERY CLOSE TO THE TRANSITIONAL DIALECTS OF SOUTHERN PUNJABI. THE CORRECT WORD FOR SOUTHERN DIALECTS OF PUNJAB IS LAHNDA OR MULTANI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.76.44 (talk) 03:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It's irrelevant that "Saraiki" was only used since the '70s. "Lahnda" was never used by actual Saraikis, it was a linguist's neologism. Now, all language names are neologisms at some point, it just so happens that Saraikis only developed linguistic consciousness in the 1970s. Multani is also only a very specific dialect of "Southern Punjabi" (like calling "Punjabi" "Lahori"). How is it "political reasons"? I don't think "we want our own province" has to be justified on ethnic grounds. Potwari-speakers don't have much of a province movement and yet still call their language Potwari or Pahari. saɪm duʃan Talk|Contribs 23:03, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Too Focused on Pakistan

Too focused on Pakistan... should stress the very interesting, powerful and dynamic cultural bleeding over between the Punjab area of India and the Punjabis of Pakistan. Emphasize Punjabi as the language of a culture that truly transcends nationality. Speak MUCH MORE about the HUGE suppression of the Punjabi culture in Pakistan by giving no official status to a majority language and forcing a different culture on them. Interesting parallel is how Pakistan attempted to do the same thing in East Pakistan (now known as Bangladesh) with the Bengali language of the Bengali culture. Difference between Indian and Pakistani Punjabi dialects as a result of India using a Sanskrit-based script and Pakistan using an Arabic script. How does religion affect the language, with most Pakistani Punjabis being Muslim and most Indian Punjabis being Sikh and Hindu?

Punjabi External links

I have only looked at a few of the external links and I must say that some of them are extermely useful. What needs to be understood is that Punjabi is more or less that same when spoken but that it can be written in various scripts - ie Urdu, Gurmukhi, Devanagari, even English - samjah! And not all punjabi speaking folks can read all the different scripts. I would like to see a star system against the external links so we can vote for these sites - ?? 5 star = excellent 1 star poor, etc. Many Thanks for listening Hari Singh

Hi, I'm from Indonesia and I have read a lot about Punjabi language, and I would like to write it in Indonesian Wikipedia for Indonesian readers, and surely in Bahasa Indonesia. What do you think?

Of course! Translations to other wikis are always needed and appreciated! Be bold! :) —Wiki Wikardo 20:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Tonal language?

This article is in Category:Tonal languages; does that mean that Punjabi is a tonal language akin to Chinese and Cantonese (that individual words have a tonal component that carries lexical information)? That would certainly differentiate it from most other Indo-European languages. There's no mention of tonality in the article itself. Can someone confirm or refute this idea? --skoosh (háblame) 16:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Never mind; I just noticed that it's mentioned in the Tone (linguistics) article. --skoosh (háblame) 16:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

May be indian punjabi is tonal since punjabi dialects spoken in Pakistan are absolutely not tonal.

Changes by Harprit

Harprit, I have reverted your edits because:

• They are messing up the placement of the image.
• You're linking to Punjabi in the Punjabi article!
• Urdu is contained within the term Hindustani.

Also, when reverting ensure that you don't revert constructive changes by other users, such as language interwiki links and other links. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 11:28, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Punjabi loanwords

Does anyone have any reliable statistics as to what percentage of loan words come from "Hindu-Urdu", Persian and English? It'll help clear up the article... Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, such a compilation is never done. Over the centuries, invaders accessed Delhi through punjab and racked it severely. In this process the invaders brought their languages and cultures which influenced punjab and punjabi. To date I have identified influences of chinese, greek, persian, arabic, sanskrit and perhapes some portugese also. It is a real great work to do.Akch 12:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Akch

Suggested Additions/Changes

Need more information on Punjabi in Pakistan (e.g. distribution, literacy, conflict with Urdu). Also need further information on related languages and some sample phrases. More details on dialects and distribution of speakers around Greater Punjab. Also talk of modern Punjabi use in the diaspora and in music. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Translation

Can someone look at the entry on Talk:Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom regarding the chant by Mota Ram? I think a great addition to the article would be some trivia on what he was actually saying. I've heard he was speaking Punjab, but maybe its another type of India language. -Husnock 23:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It's very likely he was probably speaking Hindi. Hindi is similar to Punjabi, but not the same ;) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there such a language called "Punjabi Mirpuri"

According to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pothohari_language. "Mirpuri" belongs to the western pahari group and is called Pothohari. I’m not denying the fact it isn’t related to Punjabi but why do people coin it as 'Punjabi Mirpuri' Why not call Hindko 'Punjabi Hindko' Although it might be related to Punjabi (I'm not sure) but it's still distinct from Punjabi.

Anyone care to elaborate?

P.S. You will find this link very useful after having read this article I realised that there is no such thing as 'Punjabi Mirpuri' Its written By Dalaat Ali who is a Service development manager for NHS trust and social services department.

http://www.krrc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=403&Itemid=106

It is just a localism. Today it is Punjabi Mirpuri and tomorrow it will be Punjabi Bhimbhri and still Punjabi Baghi/Balakoti/sirinagri is to come !Akch 12:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No one speaks punjabi in srinagar. Srinagar is inhabited by koshur speaking people and koshur is a dardic language, no punjabi can understand it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.69.21.80 (talk) 15:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Mirpuri is certainly a transitional dialect of Punjabi, its not a language nor is pahari or pothohari or for that matter hindko or the most recent construct seraiki, they are like majhaili, jangli, kangri, dogri, doabi, powadhi that is they are all dialects of one language called punjabi which we often confuse with Lahori or Majhi which is the standard dialect that is used in the media but NOT the only dialect of Punjabi. Other dialects like Doabi, Malwai etc. maybe closer to the standard lahori being closer to it than mirpuri, hindko or Pothohari, but they are still dialects of Punjabi because the speakers can understand each other if they only know their dialect, they can still speak and understand other dialects because they have the same grammar and structure and over 75% legible to be considered dialects of the same language. If we start splitting the hairs like this there will be no Punjabi language left it will be jangli, seraiki, doabi, majahili, hindko, pothohari etc. but no punjabi. Also, this confusion stems from the fact that linguistic study is relatively unknown in Pakistan and no other language has so many dialects in Pakistan as Punjabi, on the other hand due to partition they can't put in context any more as Hindi has dialects like Khadiboli, Banagaru, Avadhi, Maithili, Bihari, Bundelkhandi which are quite different but still are Hindi dialects there is no such comparison to be made in Pakistan that is why people get confused(and also as opposed to Bengalis theere is a lot regionalism in Punjab and politics destroys language), infact Lahnda and hindko was the original Punjabi, the areas of central punajb were influenced by Hindi dialects being onthe trade route and neigboring Hindi areas that is why the dialect ther is more like Urdu, Lahnda is the purest and oldest form of Punjabi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.76.44 (talk) 03:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Inflection

Should be some mention on how it carries inflection, which tends to be a component of many Indo-European languages. I'm mainly curious in where there's inflection and where there isn't, or if it's dropped entirely. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 01:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC) Multani and Bahawalpuri are not punjabi language's dialects .These are dialects of Siraiki language and Siraiki is an independet languageRasoolpuri 02:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It is very interesting when people just under the infulece of political and localism deny the established facts and do not accept the truth because it does not suit them. Same is happening with Siraiki and the siraiki people. Whereas the fact is that siraiki is a dialact which Lahndi used to speak not very long ago. Akch 12:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Siraiki in pakistan is considered an independent language. Siraiki is closely related to punjabi but you can say other way round also. Actually punjabi is a mixture of siraiki and hindi.Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.58.115.25 (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

'considered' does not a language make. If it is a language why did the word Seraiki did not exist in southern Punjab before the 1970's you cannot borrow a Sindhi languge word to make it a separate language. What happened to Lahnda??? the word used for centuries. Seraiki is the northern dialect of Sindhi spoken in norhtern Sindh it has nothing to do with Lahnda. Lahnda speakers just borrowed the name and started using it to further political motives. The whole of linguistic and scholarly world cosiders Lahnda to be oldest form of Punjabi and Lahnda speakers named it after a northern dialect of Sindhi!!! Bizarre are the ways of Pakistani politics. Pretty soon Pothohari will be made a language borrowing a Pashto word for eastern or Kashmiri(kashur) word for western. Everybody is ashamed to be called Punjabi. Lets all get rid of Punjabi. Lahori, Mirpuri, Faisalabadi, Ludhianvi, Patialvi, Pindwi, Multani, Bahawalpuri, Derajati should all be languages and ethnicities. Sindhis, Balochis and Mohajirs will be very happy with the death of Punjabi ethnicity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.76.44 (talk) 03:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

translators needed at Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation

Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation--D-Boy 19:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

split?

this article appears in contradiction with Indo-Aryan languages and others, which list the Western Punjabi language as without close affiliation to [East] Punjabi. The nature of "Punjabi" as a widely scattered dialect continuum should be made much more clear, and we may need independent articles on Lahndi/Eastern Punjabi and Western Punjabi. This is just what I note from the contradiction between articles, I don't have any deeper knowledge on this. dab (��) 12:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

A question about the aspirated phonemes

I would like to ask a question about the aspirated phonemes. I am a speaker of Romani language, a Indo-Aryan language used now in Europe and America (due to emigration 1000 years ago). In our language all the old voiced aspirated phonemes turned to voiceless aspirated. For example (I will make comparisons with Hindi, 1st word Romani, 2nd Hindi): kher - ghar, khil - ghee, phen - behen (bhagini), phral - bhai, phuv - bhumi, thuv - dhuan. I read somewhere that there are some Punjabi dialects with the same feature, but there was just a small sentence, without any other details. Does anyone know more about it? It would be great if there would be some on-line sources about this. Usually the researchers of the evolution of the Romani language propose that the shift voiced -> voiceless occured when our ancestors passed through Armenian speaking area. However, it looks possible that this feature was already present when leaving the Subcontinent (the departure was from Punjab - Rajasthan area). Thank you, Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 15:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that in Punjabi, voiced aspirated phonemes turn to voiceless unaspirated. Voiced aspirates (a.k.a. "breathy voiced" phonemes) are not very common; in fact, they have minimal pairs with all other types of related phonemes only in some North Indian languages (e.g. Hindi and Bengali).

I think that sound change probably took place very soon after the Romanies' ancestors left the Subcontinent. (I find that inside the Subcontinent, the distinction between voiced/voiceless (un)aspirates is generally recognized in some way, even if it is not actually pronounced.) In Farsi, for example, there are clearly no voiced aspirates (in fact, I think there are only voiceless (un)aspirates, same as English). --Kuaichik 04:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Punjabi Dialect {khetrani}

Khetrani is listed as one of the dialects of Punjabi in the table. Khetrani is the language of the Khetran tribe of Balochistan and is only limited to them. Khetrani or Khetranki as called by Khetrans is the sole language of Khetrans. As they are a baloch tribe so it just doesnt add up being a Punjabi dialect. OmerKhetran 14:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Hindko is not spoken in the political region of punjab or for that matter mirpuri they are still dialects of Punjabi not Pashto or Kashmiri respectively. DO NOT mix linguistics with politics but its hard to separate it in Pakistan isn't it??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.76.44 (talk) 03:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I should like to mention that Khetrani are a baloch tribe but Khetrani Language itself is a dialect of Sindhi. Anyone who can speak Khetrani fluently can easily converse with a Sindhi speaker including Omer Khetran and I.

Hindko is closer to Siraiki rather than Punjabi. SIL classifies it such.

When was Punjabi born?

When did the language start? Any online dictionary?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.8.89 (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

see here for an online dictionary, but it doesn't contain all the words. --Gman124 ^talk 20:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

“Sikhs and others”

Do Muslims in Indian Punjab use Gurmukhi? —Wiki Wikardo 13:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• In Punjab, India Punjabi is taught in Gurmukhi. --Gman124 ^talk 20:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite lead and Dialect section Aug 2008

Within the last week, I've revised (in the American English sense of 'revise'!) the dialect classification part twice. The first time, I relied on Ethnologue. Then I read the major "one stop" source these, Masica, and realized how ignorant that was -- at least when it comes to northwest Subcontinent. For according to Ethnologue, nobody in Pakistan speaks the Punjabi spoken in India's Punjab State! Ethnologue has the inhabitants of Lahore, etc. speaking Lahnda -- which no major researcher has claimed. So I reresearched and rewrote. Since they are hugely wrong, it's not advisable to include their dialect list. Hurmata (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Request

Hello, I was working on improving the Panjabi entry for the Wikijunior languages project and after reading this article I wasn't sure who would be considered the top 3 or 4 most important authors in Panjabi to include there and I was wondering if anyone had a poem or children's story or rhyme that was GDFL or public domain that could be added and translated. Any other improvements would be welcomed as well. Thanks all. - Taxman ^Talk 02:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Dialect Examples

I have added some example sentences in some dialects. I am from Amritsar, so I added Majhi samples. I found few examples in pothohari, and added them too. I have some knowledge about Dogri. I have added examples for that too, to best of my knowledge. I request people to make/suggest changes, and add examples from other dialects. --Nsdeonia (talk) 07:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Saraiki and Lahnda

Aren't they separate languages? --Maurice45 (talk) 19:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, they're considered distinct languages by most linguists. Actually, the results of George Abraham Grierson's Linguistic Survey of India used the word "Punjabi" to refer to all the languages/dialects spoken in the Punjab region. Grierson divided "Punjabi" in two parts: "Western Punjabi" and "Eastern Punjabi". The term "Western Punjabi" covered Saraiki etc., while the term "Eastern Punjabi" referred to the language (based on Majhi dialect) that this article talks about. Although this classification is outdated, the word "Punjabi' is still used by some to cover all these languages. But generally, "Punjabi" today refers to the language that has Majhi as its prestige dialect. utcursch | talk 03:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

An interesting joke

There is an interesting joke in this article .According this article Saraiki'Gojri 'Hindko 'Pahari'etc are dialects of Punjabi language .Wonderful .These language are independent languages not dialects of Punjabi .You may read articles about these languages on this encyclopedia.Besides it there are several books on these languages.On Siraiki .C.Shackle and Smirnove have written books--Rasoolpuri (talk) 11:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi. My parents speak Punjabi and that's what they tell me. I pointed out to them that every word in Punjabi is the same Hindi word with an altered pronunciation, and there is no difference in the grammar. They agreed. Now if native Punjabi speakers agree that Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi, I think we need to review Indo-Aryan dialectology as a whole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.153.160 (talk) 16:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

This is just absurd. No way is Punjabi a "dialect of Hindi". It is taught as a distinct language, and it certainly does have its own turns of phrase and distinct vocabulary. They're certainly close, but not the same. saɪm duʃan Talk|Contribs 22:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Attempt at trying to convey that languages are being claimed on religious bias

With regards to the line that appears without reference that has been removed. "The Muslim and Hindu Punjabis began to assert that their mother tongues were Urdu and Hindi respectively". When was this ever the case? Since when has Punjabi now become the exclusive mother tongue of the Sikhs? 78.86.166.102 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC).

dogri dialect or language ?????

punjabi dialect in northern part of punjab and southern of jammu and in the sialkot and adjoining areas use dogri language or dialect as punjabi the softest of all punjabi dialects ..............!!!!! i mean it has got individual status in india but what about pakistan ????

Colloquialism

My edit has been removed an individual who has never resided in the UK, this is the English Language edition and it is a colloquial term used in the UK. If you want to remove colloquialism you will be editing 100,000.00 of pages. If those edits can stay so can mine. Check out the English pages on Liverpudlian redirected to Liverpool and Scouse. In this English Wikipedia we have thousands of pages dedicated to colloquialism, so you have made the decision that these are no longer valid? Riveira2 (talk) 15:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This page isn't dedicated to a colloquialism. You've also violated WP:3RR. If you have a source, you can put this in a naming section. But the normal name of the language is Panjabi, not "Jubjub". I suppose, following your argument, that I could amend Received Pronunciation to read,

Received Pronunciation (RP), also called La-dee-da or the Queen's English, is ...

but that isn't an appropriate tone for an encyclopedia. kwami (talk) 15:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that's one of your problems - you are very out of date, the expression La-dee-da (google doesn't even provide a good return for it) may have been used 30 to 40 years ago but if you lived in the UK now you wouldn't hear anyone under 65 using it. I will not edit 3 times, but I will edit if changed - so dispute resolution. You need to live in UK/GB/England to understand English, the country where a Turnip is a Swede, or a Turnip is Turnip depending on location. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.101.231.179 (talk) 20:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Anon IP, since there are more editors than just you who disagree with this edit, you are the one who needs to seek resolution. "Jubjub" is not an appropriate term as an alternate name for a language in an encyclopedia. Alternate names are names that appear in the scientific literature. You won't be able to find a single linguist who has used "Jubjub" as a legitimate name for Punjabi in the last two centuries. "Street names" are not appropriate. (Taivo (talk) 22:24, 20 December 2009 (UTC))

and you're either lying or at least contradicting yourself, for you have edited more than 3x per day. kwami (talk) 02:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to future edits genius 80.101.236.233 (talk) 09:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Punjabi Translation of names

can someone please take time and write names of Punjabi people in Gurmukhi script. please consider articles

• Vinod_Dham
• Vinod Khosla
• Renu Saluja
• Vidhu Vinod Chopra
• Sabeer Bhatia
• Anand Mahindra —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onef9day (talk • contribs) 05:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigsuperindia (talk • contribs) 22:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Done Anupam^Talk 05:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

thanks a lot. Onef9day (talk) 16:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

can't be bothered to revert these, but Gurmukhi is considered an exclusively Sikh script developed originally for Sikh liturgical purposes and today used by Sikhs for everyday use. Writing these Hindus' names in Gurmukhi technically doesn't make sense; those who speak Punjabi most often still use Devnagari, if not always. Not to mention that a couple of those names are written incorrectly. Whatever though...3swordz (talk) 08:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

For the scripts I added, I wrote their Punjabi names in Devanagari and then Gurmukhi. For example, see this version. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:58, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Gurmukhi isn't "an exclusively Sikh" script. It's the only officially recognised script for writing Punjabi in India. If you learn Punjabi in India, you'll learn it in Gurmukhi script, regardless of whether you're in Punjab, Haryana, HP, Delhi etc. Obviously, if you've never learnt Punjabi at school, you may well write it in Devanagari script.

And, there is a common misconception that Gurmukhi was created as a script for Sikhs - this is simply not true. The script pre-dates the Guru Granth Sahib, and has evolved from Landa/Sharada. It was never designed by the Sikh gurus. You could consider that it was "standardised" by the Sikh gurus, but again, the script has evolved since then. For example, the original Gurmukhi "a" (Aira) much closer represented its Sharada/Devanagari equivalent in the past. The original Gurmukhi Kanna "aa" used to be a dot on the top line - now it's a vertical line stopping midway through.

Sikhs may identify with the script, for obvious reasons, but it's not a Sikh script. 188.28.108.142 (talk) 13:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It was created for Sikh liturgical purposes by Guru Angad Dev, and is used mainly by Sikhs in their media, as opposed to Hindus who tend to prefer writing in Devanagari. so yeah it is a Sikh script. Yeah, it's descended from Sharada, which is irrelevant because we are not talking about Sharada, which it is clearly distinct from (any forerunners to Gurmukhi are not part of this discussion. It was also created to better represent the Punjabi language, while other such contemporary scripts had shortcomings). Gurmukhi specifically did not exist before Guru Angad Dev and the Sikhs. Before that it was Landa/Sharada and, we can assume, other scripts derived from them.

And Gurmukhi is strongly associated with Punjabi because it was solely the Sikhs who demanded and fought for Punjabi language rights (which led to the trifurcation creating the Sikh majority and Punjabi patronage. they are intertwined). If Hindus/non-Punjabis/others learn Punjabi through Gurmukhi now that's just wonderful but it doesn't change the facts. As for scripts getting tweaked over the centuries, well of course, all written scripts go through that, is that a surprise? Really, Gurmukhi has stayed the same in form and use pretty much exactly since the Adi Granth compilation.3swordz (talk) 09:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh please. I've studied the history of the Gurmukhi script in substantial depth for many years, and the popular assertion that Guru Angad Dev CREATED the Gurmukhi script has no basis in fact. The Gurmukhi script has slowly evolved over the years and letter forms have changed both prior and post the Granth's creation. There is some basis in the argument that the Gurmukhi script was largely standardised by Angad Dev, but obviously that is not the same as creating it. I suggest you look at several old manuscripts, even by Guru Hargobind (e.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/29486393@N02/5343030969/ - distinctly Sharada esque forms of A, dots for Kanna etc.) to see how the script we now call Gurmukhi is not the same as the script used by Angad Dev.

Also, I'm interested in how Gurmukhi was "created" to better represent the Punjabi language? The only possible distinction I can see between it and other relevant scripts is the introduction of Rharra, which doesn't even have an aspirated form in Gurmukhi (an aspirated form is used in Punjabi). Besides which, other scripts can represent the same letter using Ddda + Nukta (pairin bindi). Gurmukhi represents Punjabi well, but not particularly any better than say Devanagari, Sharada or any other north Indian Brahmi-based script. Remember that the most Brahmi-based scripts are functionally identical, and the main differences are evolutions in letter forms caused by "scripts getting tweaked over the centuries".

I have never said that Gurmukhi is not strongly associated with Sikhs - of course it is! However your assertion was that it was an "exclusively Sikh" script - which is absolutely absurd. Sure, Sikhs agitated for the recognition of Punjabi written in Gurmukhi as the primary language of Punjab. However, remember that about 40% of Indian Punjab is NOT Sikh. And as the secular language used in Punjab is Punjabi, they all learn the Gurmukhi script at school. And at the very least it is used in government correspondence and literacy is a pre-requisite for many jobs.

90.200.38.30 (talk) 23:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

There was no script called Gurmukhi before the Gurus, not sure how you don't get this. Really, those manuscripts (I've come across them before) are quite identifiably Gurmukhi, virtually identical to the kind used today (I could read it with absolutely no problem whatsoever), so I don't see your point at all. The Gurus used a multitude of languages in their original writings, and they studied and were themselves raised and influenced in many parts and cultures in India. Of course there can be only one script for the Granth, so not every regional variation (or really, every personal handwriting trait or more likely shorthand, which is what those tiny variations are more like, not a whole other script like the conclusion you seem to like jumping to) over the centuries is accounted for.

Your examples actually make my point, that's straight-up Gurmukhi, you've just latched onto one--yeah, ONE-- slightly divergent-looking character (identical to modern Gurmukhi "A," (ਅ) only with a bar over it. Distinctly "Sharada-esque?" Not even remotely compared to "ਅ") in the whole document to make the point that it's not Gurmukhi at all. Also, according to our Sharada page, Sharada did NOT use dots for Kanna, the dot made nasalization just like in modern Gurmukhi. The Sharada "Kanna" diacritic is completely different from your Gurmukhi sample. And even if you weren't wrong on both counts, the point is exactly the same. Next you're going to tell me that the Latin script isn't the Latin script, because of the introduction of lower-case letters in post-Roman times (that's a HUGE change, and guess what, it's still Latin). That Gurmukhi from 400 years ago has one ambiguous character that isn't really even ambiguous and one small difference (very well could be a shorthand version, it's sure as hell not from Sharada), and now it's not Gurmukhi at all. Go figure. An occasional archaism here and there from centuries ago does not a separate script make.

Also on a side note, Rharra with a "pair-haha" as it is called, does not produce aspiration (Punjabi has no voiced aspirates) but a raised tone. Everything is accounted for. You don't know that languages change over time as well, so therefore the needs of its script as well? Gurmukhi itself is the result of one of those necessities, and itself has to be adaptable. Punjabi has acquired new sounds and Gurmukhi has accordingly adapted them (pair-bindi letters). Really, the changes have been slight, and it's still Gurmukhi as it always was.

"40% of Punjab isn't Sikh." So? 60% percent IS Sikh, and their liturgical and secular alphabet thankfully received political patronization (and they achieved majority status) after their agitations. No one else fought for or defended the language, no other script is considered the norm. So all the residents of Punjab use Gurmukhi, because of the Sikhs. Again, just because Hindus (or anyone else who wants to, jeez) can use it for that reason doesn't change the facts. Everyone can use it, but you can't change the history.

Really, your posts read like a person who wants to use the Gurmukhi script without the Sikh connotations. No one's stopping non-Sikhs from using it, go ahead! If you didn't actually notice, I didn't revert the edits mentioned at the beginning of the section. Moreover, I don't really feel like discussing your personal theories and "research" anymore either, or what you believe has basis in fact, you have no special authority or credentials on the matter as you have demonstrated. There isn't even an edit in question here, and this isn't a forum. Believe what makes you feel better. 3swordz (talk) 10:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Could we get some IPA for ਪੰਜਾਬੀ/پنجابی? —Wiki Wikardo 20:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately the transliteration on this page is non-standard not even consistent, while IPA is very much lacking. I'll try to do something about it within the month. Bʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{Speak up!} 22:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

numbers don't add up

somebody familiar with the topic should look at this recent edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Punjabi_language&curid=25044&diff=356641147&oldid=355736864 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Profitoftruth85 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Poor map

This map is really inaccurate. It claims that the whole nation of Pakistan speaks Punjabi as a first language; when it is not even spoken in the whole of Pakistani Punjab. This map really must be an insult to the Urdu, Sindhi, Pashtun and other native speakers. Please fix it only to show central punjab (Potohari is in the North of Punjab, Seraiki is in the south). --92.8.202.26 (talk) 15:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I had marked this map as inaccurate on Commons, but the author removed the tag. I've added it again, and removed the map from the article until it gets fixed. utcursch | talk 16:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Khalid Mahmood has fixed it now. utcursch | talk 17:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by fixed? It shows Sindh, Baluchestan, Saraiki and Potohari regions, Sarhad and Pakistan controlled Kashmir as native Punjabi speaking areas. This is by far the most disgraceful map produced, it doesn't even cite where the info came from. I would say that it is Wikipedia:OR. --92.21.135.101 (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The map depicts countries, not regions. I agree about the sources, though. utcursch | talk 17:16, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Mummy

Can anybody help? The page on Mother used to list "ami" as punjabi for mother. Now it has been changed to "jhayi", "bebe" or "ma". I don't know if this is correct or not, or whether it relates to different places called the punjab. Fainites ^barleyscribs 22:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks.Fainites ^barleyscribs 01:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

lateral flap?

I've come across some WP transcriptions where /ɭ/ is given as a flap []. Is this accurate? — kwami (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Ordered list, by country

If the population figures are correct, then the table is no longer in order. Varlaam (talk) 05:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Map needs to be change

Countries by number of Punjabi speakers

I think the above map is not at all correct and I have made a more accurate map.

Countries by number of Punjabi speakers

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vibhijain (talk • contribs) 12:05, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Tenu pyar karda ha VS Tenu pyar karda?

Under the section, Example, Mahji, Standard Punjabi, I have changed "Main tenu pyar karda HAAN" to "Main tenu pyar karda". Pujabi is not my first language, so please undone my change, if its wrong. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolrsa (talk • contribs) 12:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

"kardā hā̃" is the proper way to write it in Standard Punjabi and is grammatically correct. I think your view comes from spoken Punjabi, where the phrase actually kind of merges and sounds like "kardā̃," the same way Doabi writes out he ਹੈ ("is") but gets pronounced "ā". ("H"s are frequently elided in Punjabi, like in both examples.) There can be little idiosyncracies like that from time to time but go by writing conventions as opposed to speech, which varies. If you're not sure about something, leave it to fluent speakers, but I can see why you thought that was the case. 3swordz (talk) 12:29, 6 May 2011 (UTC)