Talk:Purananuru

Thinais in the purananuru and the Tolkappiyam

This article has really improved. A big round of applause to Venu62 for his work!
An interesting, but little-marked, feature of the purananuru is that it does not follow the 7 puraththinais of the Tolkāppiyam, but uses a very different system. Some of the difference is just that a few thinais have different names (e.g. karanthai instead of vetchi) but there are also some substantive difference (relating to kanchi, I think), and there are even some poems belonging to akam thinais. The article ought to discuss these points, I think. I've not volunteered to add these myself because I've broken too many promises already about contributing to various articles, but I'll put it on my list of things to do if no-one else wants to take it up. -- Arvind 15:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I decided to stop making excuses and actually do something. Feel free to improve on my description of the thinais as used in the purananuru. -- Arvind 22:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I have added a few more lines on thurai, etc. I found an excellent online source for the commentary on Purananuru by Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Iyer : http://www.tamilvu.org/library/l1280/html/l1280bod.htm. It is part of the Tamil Virtual University website which has excellent resources for Tamil lit. - Parthi 00:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration question

I think this is a general question for all Tamil literature related pages. Personally I don't use special characters in writing Tamil names such as Choḻan Poravai Kopperunarkiḷḷi for two reasons: it is harder to type :) and it is not search engine or wikilink friendly. I am also not in favour of using mixed cases such as KopperunkiLLi. It makes words harder to read for a non Tamil speaking person.

I think we should come to an agreement on the transliteration standards for the English WP. My suggestion is to not to use any of the special characters, but simply transcribe the names phonetically with normal English characters. I agree that there will be a loss in terms of the confusion regarding how the names are pronounced, but considering that we are writing in English and the fact that when we write English names in Tamil we don't seem to bother about presenting the exact pronunciation. Take for example "Francis Bacon" and "Egypt". They can only be written in Tamil to sound "Piransis Bahkon" and "Yeghipthu". Parthi 03:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. For pronunciation help, we should add IPA and/or audio files. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the idea as far as names of people are concerned, but we need to agree on a set of rules. After all, what is "normal". Tholkappiyar? Tholkaappiyar? Tolkapiyar? Tolkappiyar? Tolkaapiyar? You see the problem, I hope. I also think that when it comes to things other than names of people - names of technical terms and literary works - there is a stronger case for using special characters. I'm not for going totally ballistic in their use, but I think there may be something to be said for using them to differentiate long and short vowels and some characters. I'm not too insistent on this, though. -- Arvind 12:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

We do need to arrive at a set of standard notations for this. However since this is the English language encyclopedia, and (hopefully) we want readers from both Tamil and non-Tamil background to read and appreciate Tamil literature, it will be counter-productive IMO to use very technical language in these articles.

As Sundar suggested we can use IPA and actual Tamil characters to document complex pronunciation.

I will try and document my own conventions on transliteration of Tamil I use in my articles. We can all review and contribute to a general guideline. - Parthi 22:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be great. Could you do that on the WikiProject page? A transliteration scheme is one of the things to do listed there, and having it there would make it an easy point to refer people to. I'm not sure if we should use IPA or the ISO 15919 standard - the latter is easier to read than the IPA and is what is generally used in both scholarly and popular literature for transliteration. Well, we can take a call on which is more appropriate later. -- Arvind 12:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There is already a page on transiteration conventions for indic languages. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28Indic%29#Transliteration. My preference is the simplified ISO15919 standards. Parthi 22:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I know of that, but if you take a look at the template on this page it will be obvious that we have not been following it at all. Do you think we should go over to it? At the present, it won't be too difficult to go over all articles and rename as necessary, but it will mean that we have "tinai" and "turai" (not "thinai" and "thurai"), "palamoli" (not "pazhamozhi"), "Kampar" (not "Kambar"), and so on, which is why I was a little unsure about whether we should adopt it. Because there is such a wide variation in transliterating, most names won't have primary transliterations. -- Arvind 22:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we should. When I started editing I wasn't aware of these conventions and I was just following and building on already existing naming conventions. Also, Tamil literature or linguistics are not my forte. I am grateful for any advise from you and others. We should go over the articles and change the names to comply to these guidelines. It shouldn't be too difficult. - Parthi 22:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree it won't be too hard to do this - we will essentially have to simply run through all the articles in Category:Tamil literature. Shall we wait and see what Sundar's opinion is before getting started? -- Arvind 22:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I'll be a bit busy today anyway. - Parthi 22:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

the dating

the dates mentioned earlier don't match the dates mentioned now. Wikiwhitewizard (talk) 15:18, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

"invocation to shiva"

the first poem dedicated to Shiva is considered to be a later addition to purananuru(i.e in the post-sangam era) . so, any information on that will help Wikiwhitewizard (talk) 15:41, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Wikiwhitewizard: Welcome to wikipedia. The earlier version was grossly misrepresenting the cited sources in places, when a source was cited. For example, the Hart source states 100-250 CE (last para, 4th line), and does not say "2nd century BCE and 3rd century CE". This sort of dishonesty and misrepresentation, or exceptional claims made without sources, unfortunately, is a systematic problem in some of our key Tamil-related wikipedia articles. A clean up is long due, per wikipedia community agreed content guidelines. On invocation, every compilation manuscript has one for Shiva. You are right, that in some cases, such as this anthology, it was likely added later at the start of the manuscripts as it was being copied in Shaiva monasteries and temples, from one century to the next. But, we need an RS that says so for Purananuru. If you help find one, we will add it here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Ramayana

The mention of Ramayana in one song of Purananuru is already covered in a section of its own, plus got mentioned on the lead section. User:Narayanan Iyengar inserted a modern painting of a scene from Ramayana as the lead image which is WP:UNDUE and not in the spirit of MOS:LEADIMAGE. I had moved the image to the relevant section replacing it with a persistent cultural practice mentioned multiple times in Purananuru. Narayanan Iyengar has reverted that without cause. I've readded the lead image with supporting references now. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

User:Narayanan Iyengar, can you please discuss such radical changes here first? I notice that your edit history is full of revisionist edits relating to adding a specific kind of Vedic pov to several articles relating to Tamil literature. Some of those additions can be mentioned in articles, but large scale shifting of focus through lead section edits and lead images need to be discussed first. Please also read the policies regarding UNDUE and LEADIMAGE linked above. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

::Hi, There are several mentions of Vedas and Hindu mythology in all Tamil epics but these informations are not mentioned in these articles. As an editor it is our job to make it in a neutral point of view which mentions everything in the article. Mention of Vedas is much more in Purananuru than Nadukal, Nadukal is a hero stone kept for few kings who died in war but these kings were the ones who performed several Vedic rituals in so many amounts as mentioned in the text, so please tell me, is the number of Yagams performed by the kings more or Nadukal kept more ? The article purananuru mentions the Vedas as great text in poem 2 of Purananuru while praising the king which shows that almost all the poets and kings read the Vedas. Nadukal mention can be kept as a separate heading in the article but not as a leading image as the vedas are greater, Poem 9 tells about performing of death rituals which shows they did Anthima samskaram. Now please tell me what is the persistent cultural practice mentioned multiple times in Purananuru from a neutral point of view. Narayanan Iyengar (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock Chariotrider555 (talk) 16:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

You've added multiple sections for Vedas and Hindu mythology, plus 3 images or so. Plus, a paragraph in the lead section and a lead image. That's not just more than enough but clearly WP:UNDUE. You've also added a lot of Sanskrit terminology when the article is about a Tamil classic. It's okay to mention if the loanwords were used in that particular work, but not if native words are used. For instance, if the literary work that is the subject of the article used the native வேள்வி ʋeːɭʋɪˑ was used in the work, but we put yāgam, it could lead to a misleading pov.

Coming to nadukal. Nadukal are not just erected for kings like you mention here, but war heroes of all ranks. There are hundreds of thousands of them across South India. For every inscription discovered, there are 3-5 nadukals discovered. Purananuru mentions specific nadukals in poems 3, 221, 223, 232, 261, 264, 306, 314, 329. Akananuru has 16 references. https://www.jstor.org/stable/29757518 details a sample of 274 nadukals just from around Dharmapuri area.

I request you to revert the latest lead image edit yourself and take inputs from other editors. @Rasnaboy, Wikiwhitewizard, and Ms Sarah Welch: Unfortuately @Vadakkan and Venu62: who contributed a lot to this article are no longer active. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 04:03, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

::::Coming to POV, the article Hero Stone is in english and not in tamil (nadukal) because it should be familiar and is found even in Karnataka and other southern states, similarly yagam or Yajna is more Known even for Tamilians and other common people than Velvi that is why i did rename them. Yupam is a Sanskrit terminology mentioned in several places of Tamil Texts. Sanskrit was a well spoken language in Ancient Tamil Nadu hence most of the stone inscriptions have mentions like Swasthi Shri.

Coming to the mentions of Vedas and Gods, Vedas are considered as sacred text even for the Tamilians according to poem 2 and many other poems of Purananuru. Some of the mentions are Poem 1, 2, 9, 15, 26, 43, 56, 93, 122, 166, 201, 224, 367 and several more references of Vedas and Rigvedic deities. There are mentions of King Shibi also in the form of Story in poem 37, 43, 39 and 46. Several other texts of Sangam Literature have references to Vedas and Shastras. I request you not to revert the latest lead image. Thank you Narayanan Iyengar (talk) 05:08, 22 September 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock Chariotrider555 (talk) 16:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The lead image should generally reflect the primary subject of the work. With Purananuru dealing with varied topics of the puram genre (meaning that which deals with outside of the private sphere, or simply worldly topics) such as nadukal (hero stone), velvi (Yajna), vedas, battles and wars, and others, the lead image I think shall better be a motley of all these or a montage perhaps (such as the cityscape montage in city articles), reflecting the ancient culture of the land. Yajnas are but one of the topics and are not the sole subject of the work to be included as the lead image. If their mention is widespread or more in number, an image in a relevant section would do as User:Sundar suggested. The article currently has three images of yajnas alone, giving rise to WP:UNDUE. Rasnaboy (talk) 06:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks User:Rasnaboy. Also, the cited references are for Vedas and Vedic practices overall and not just the practice of Yajnas. So, to feature a Yajna based on all that is clearly WP:UNDUE. If we count all the instances of martyrdom along with Natukal, it'd be way more than the 9 I've cited above.

More importantly, all Vedic refs are from primary sources i.e. translations of the work itself. as much as I respect George Hart and his translations, editors here can't be synthesising sweeping claims like what User:Narayanan Iyengar has made here. In fact, Prof.Hart's book cited in the article supports the following assertin:

“ According to Hart and Heifetz, the Purananuru provides a view of the Tamil society before large scale Indo-Aryan influences affected it. The life of the Tamils of this era revolved around the king, emphasized the purity of women and placed limitations of the rights of widows. Further, the compilation suggests that the ancient Tamils had a caste system called kuti. The anthology is almost entirely a secular treatise on the ancient Tamil thought on kingship, the constant state of wars within old Tamil speaking regions, the bravery of heroes and the ferocious nature of this violence. According to Amritha Shenoy, the Purananuru poems eulogize war and describe "loyalty, courage, honor" as the virtues of warriors. ”

It's dissonant to have the lead image as that of a Yajna alongside the above LEAD text. I think an image of a war scene or a Natukal for a martyr befits the LEAD more than other options. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 13:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead image changed and redundant images fixed per discussion. Rasnaboy (talk) 15:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 03:19, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

== Vedas ==

Even though there is a separate section for the Vedas in Purananuru, The Vedas are mentioned several times in the text. Most of the kings performed several Yagams, For example Karikala cholan, Perunarkilli, Kudumi and many poems dedicated only for Brahmins who performed such practises, even the text has mythological references of kings born from Sacrificial pits (Homa kundam). So replacing the lead image with a Vedic Sacrifice would make more sense than a nadukal which was persistent cultural practice but not as the Vedas which are much older and referred more in number. Thank you Narayanan Iyengar (talk) 06:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock Chariotrider555 (talk) 16:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Purananuru missing information

Hello, I am a Tamil and Vedic Historian and I was recommended to edit such articles in the teahouse of Wikipedia. I started with Purananuru, Can we discuss why Ramayana's reference has a separate heading in this article but not for the story of Sibi Chakravarthy, the mention of Various death rituals, Vedic Sacrifices and many other informations. Why aren't there any references of Such important topics. May I know the reason. An article must have a summary of the text, but this article doesn't mention even the Nadukal properly. What about the other death rituals like shaving head, offering rice to a corpse, belives of tamils that there ancestors live in a separate world. Can we improve the article? Can I get help from Rasnaboy and Sundar. Sastri676 (talk) 04:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello User:Sastri676. Welcome to Wikipedia and please feel free to add contents with proper sources. Please make sure they do reflect what is said in the third-party sources, do not contain original research, and are unbiased point of view in their presentation. I'm sure the contribution from a history scholar would greatly improve the article. Glad to have you here and looking forward to working with you. Rasnaboy (talk) 07:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much. Sastri676 (talk) 07:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead image

I replaced a war scene with the name Purananuru (Book cover of Purananuru) is that fine? I placed the Nadukal image under the heading of death and rituals. Purananuru talks more about wars than Nadukal so I replaced it. Sastri676 (talk) 03:32, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that image may be a copyright violation and might soon be removed. Please check with other editors. Rasnaboy (talk) 08:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I mentioned it's not my work and added the source. Will it still be a copyright ? Sastri676 (talk) 09:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)