Talk:Pyongsan Shin clan

Untitled

Ridiculous claims by a Shin woman who married a Belgian commoner and created and registered a new last name, "Shin de Pyeongsan." Korea was not a hereditary feudal country since 1392. All officials were selected based on their performance on the Gwageo exam. There were no titles and fiefdom passed down through families. As such, no notable Pyeongsan Shins are found after Shin Sunggyeon in 900s! The most powerful families in late Joseon were the Andong Kims, Pungyang Jos, and Yeongheung Mins. Pyeongsan Shins peaked in early Goryeo, pre-1000s. It is a good family, but this article is so pretentious, as to approach ridiculousness. Unless you slef police this article, I will have to contact other editors and really work on this, for the good of other Korean families.Krusader6 (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Romanization of 신

I think the name of the page should be changed to "Pyeongsan Shin clan". While the Revised Romanization of 신 is "Sin", the surname is most commonly romanized, both in historical sources and in day-to-day life, as "Shin". Maria0215 (talk) 19:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Rename page

Hi, the rules that determine how we name pages can be found in WP:ARTICLETITLE. The most important policy is WP:COMMONNAME; whichever name most commonly appears in reliable sources.

For this article, we take the entire clan's name as a whole, not split it into parts and determine which is common for each part.

Upon researching in Google Books, what gets the most results is "Pyeongsan Shin clan" (167 results). This is a strange case because the current province is in North Korea and is spelled Pyongsan, but that doesn't matter to us (ctrl+f "stalingrad" in the common name link). Next up is Pyongsan Shin (24 results). Pyongsan Sin gets only 1 result to me. Will rename page toobigtokale (talk) 09:03, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Toobigtokale, the big problem with Korean clans is that there is not a WP:COMMONNAME in the way that they are referred. Depending on the author, there are multiple variants from "[Surname] clan of [Location]", "[Location] [Surname] lineage", "[Location] [Surname] descent group" and the standard that Wikipedia currently uses "[Location] [Surname] clan" to translate from the Korean "[Location] [Surname]씨". For example, in "Social Stratification in Seventeenth-Century Korea: Some Observations from a 1663 Seoul Census Register" by Edward W. Wagner, he refers to the 평산 신씨 as the "P'yŏngsan Sin lineage" using "[Location] [Surname] lineage". So, in fact, we do split it into parts and determine which is common for each part for titling articles as to some extent, it is an unwritten naming convention on Wikipedia. "[Location] [Surname] clan" is a popular variant but it may not be the most common convention for certain clans, such as this clan. However, WP:CONSISTENT applies in this case, thus the title should be Pyongsan Shin clan. The current title also violates WP:NPOV by using the ROK's romanization for an region currently de facto controlled by the North Korean regime.

However, if you think that my arguments are invalid and that per your argument that entire clan's name should be taken as a whole, then Pyeongsan Shin clan is not the common name either. Rather it should be at P'yŏngsan Sin clan. The thing with Google Books is that it will sometimes show false positives. Out of the 167 results from Google Books for the result "Pyeongsan Shin clan", I could find only two genuine English uses of the term "Pyeongsan Shin clan". First, from The Traditional Education of Korea by Wan Gee Choi, and secondly, from Pentecostalism, Postmodernism, and Reformed Epistemology by Yoon Shin. Looking at the results, one of the books that purported to use the term "Pyeongsan Shin clan" was Sienna: (The Hue Sisters - Book 1) a romance suspense novel and The Red Queen, a Western fiction. The term P'yŏngsan Sin and its variants is used by: The Origins of the Choson Dynasty by John B. Duncan, "A Study of the Hyangan: Kin Groups and Aristocratic Localism in the Seventeenth-and Eighteenth-Century Korean Countryside" by Fujiya Kawashima, "Social Stratification in Seventeenth-Century Korea: Some Observations from a 1663 Seoul Census Register" by Edward W. Wagner, Family Lineage Records as a Resource for Korean History by Hildi Kang, and "Military Examination Graduates in Sixteenth-Century Korea: Political Upheaval, Social Change, and Security Crisis" by Eugene Y. Park.

In fact, due to most sources in Korean Studies utilizing McCune–Reischauer romanization, you would quickly find that this would result in most of the Korean clans moved to McCune–Reischauer romanization, ex. the Geochang Shin clan → Kŏch'ang Sin clan, Cheongju Han clan → Ch'ŏngju Han clan, Yeoheung Min clan → Yŏhŭng Min clan. However, I feel that would be less recognizable to the average user who would take to take time to realize that Kŏch'ang = Geochang and that Sin = Shin. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 10:56, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, your point is fair, and my search was hasty; I move a bit too quickly sometimes as I feel there's a lot to fix on Korean articles. I also just yesterday learned about the criticisms of Google Books.

Agree with your assessment, will move to change the title toobigtokale (talk) 16:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Wanted to gauge your thoughts on something I'm still unsure of. I added these stats the other day on most common romanizations of surnames: Korean name#Romanization and pronunciation. Given this, if we split, should we always follow the most common spelling, regardless of if the clan as a whole commonly uses a different spelling?

i.e. should all 이 clans use "Lee", even if the clan as a whole is commonly referred to otherwise? toobigtokale (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I would argue that the surname should be almost always spelled as the common spelling based on the article name for the Wiki main article of the surname. For example, the Sunheung Ahn clan spells it as Ahn to match Ahn (Korean surname). I would say this should apply to most of the 이 clans, who should use the Lee spellling to match Lee (Korean surname), with the notable exception of the Jeonju Yi clan. The Jeonju Yis should be an exception due to their historical notability as the ruling family of Joseon and the Korean Empire, with the most prominent members of the clan, such as Yi Seong-gye, Yi Bang-won, and Yi Do (personal name of King Sejong) usually having their surname translated as Yi rather than Lee. The variants utilizing the Yi spelling of either "Jeonju Yi" or "Chŏnju Yi" come up very frequently in many journal articles and history books to the point where the WP:COMMONNAME should override the naming convention. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 21:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks that makes sense, agreed toobigtokale (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)