Talk:RENEA

Possible vandalism

Both these sentences look a bit suspect to me, particularly the first one: "Sheepie was the trainer for about 20 years until they deemed his training tactics to hard and inefficient.Ferriku is the actual commander of the unit." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:EE00:F01:B1BF:C060:A7CC:9070 (talk) 13:45, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Kacifas Case

The 2018 Kacifas case should be updated after instigation is concluded , in which it was established that the case was a suicide and not killed by the police forces. Bes-ARTTalk 23:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Bes-ART: The source you shared above pertains to the position of the Prosecutor's Office in Gjirokastër back in October, not the decision of the court some days ago (13 December 2021). I agree that the case should be updated with the aforementioned, but with WP:INTEXT. Also, RENEA's initial admission that it neutralized Katsifas has to be included, since it wasn't taken into account by the report of the Prosecutor's Office. Furthermore, the suicide view has been put forward again in the past, and was questioned and dismissed by the court (if i am not mistaken three times in total) for failure of the Prosecutor's Office to provide sufficient evidence; this also includes the October request mentioned in the source you shared above. We don't know yet whether any new evidence was provided since then, just that the case was indeed closed by the court per the proposal of the Gjirokastër Prosecutor's Office. Aside of the Albanian investigation into the exact circumstances of his death, the Public Prosecutor's Office in Athens also began its own investigation back in December 2019, since Katsifas was also a Greek citizen. Also, the current version doesn't say anything about Katsifas' family disputing from the beginning the view of suicide; maybe something can be included. Can you prepare a small paragraph? We can discuss if anything can be added or reworded afterwards. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:46, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I did not see that it was old news. The media reported this week that the case has been officially closed by the court. I do not know how the case will proceed in future, I just wanted to point out the new facts that emerged from the trial and that are in contrast to the old ones referred to here as well. [1][2] I am not publishing sources in Albanian for the fact that editors in en.wiki may be less valuable. Bes-ARTTalk 17:38, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok, i will try to expand/reword the existing paragraph; see below for comparison.

Current Version:

October 2018: RENEA forces eliminated the 35-year-old Greek Konstantinos Katsifas in the village of Bularat in Gjirokastër. He was a resident of the village and had helped organize the local commemoration for the anniversary of the Ohi Day; celebrating the Greek soldiers who died in the Greco-Italian War. According to the Albanian authorities, it was Katsifas himself who opened fire on the police, prompting the RENEA forces to intervene; after a shootout, Katsifas was killed on the mountainside over Bularat. His death was criticized by the Greek Foreign Ministry, calling it "unacceptable".

Suggested Version:

October 2018: During an operation by RENEA, the 35-year-old Greek Konstantinos Katsifas died on the mountainside over the village of Bularat, in Gjirokastër. He was a resident of the village, and had helped organize the local commemoration for the anniversary of the Ohi Day; celebrating the Greek soldiers who died in the Greco-Italian War. His death was criticized by the Greek Foreign Ministry, calling it "unacceptable", and demanded a thorough investigation; Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama followed by describing Katsifas as an "extremist". According to the Albanian authorities, Katsifas initially opened fire on the police, prompting the RENEA forces to later intervene. The exact circumstances of his death are a matter of dispute. The judicial investigation of the case was assigned to the Prosecutor's Office in Gjirokastër. On 22 April and 13 September 2021, the Prosecutor's Office requested for the case to be closed, stating that Katsifas committed suicide; this was dismissed by the court of Gjirokastër, for failure of the Prosecutor's Office to provide sufficient evidence. On 13 December 2021, the court accepted the request and closed the case. According to Albanian forensic experts, Katsifas committed suicide and died of two wounds to the chest, caused by contact shots; RENEA's initial admission that it killed Katsifas wasn't taken into account. A Greek forensic expert who examined the body concluded that Katsifas died of two wounds to the chest from a distance of approximately 25 meters. The Public Prosecutor's Office in Athens also began its own investigation on 8 December 2019, due to Katsifas also being a Greek citizen.

What do you think? I tried to give an WP:NPOV presentation first and foremost. You can also suggest a rewording or some other additional information to be included. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:59, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

There are many things missing in that text. I believe that the fact that Kacifas opened fire first should be mentioned without attribution. This seems to be accepted by all sides. We could change "resident of the village" to something more accurate. He was born in the village, but he lived in Greece and came back specifically for the October 28 event. His family isn't from Albania, but Greece and they sort of "blocked" in Albania when the border closed in 1945. Maybe that could be mentioned somewhere. The last thing is that there are reports which link his politics to Neonazi/ultranationalist orgs and they provide another background to what happened.

Kacifa, whose family hailed from the northwestern Greek town of Ioannina, was born and grew up in Bularat but had been living in Athens recently, according to reports. Photographs from social media show him dressed in military-style clothes, with a Greek flag patch on his arm. Reports have also suggested that he fostered extreme nationalist sympathies.

Kacifas allegedly attacked Albanian police with a gun for the sake of the Greek irredentist cause in Southern Albania. Fervent anti-Albanian speeches were pronounced at his funeral, which took place on Albanian territory and was attended by many Greek politicians, and during the ceremony for the anniversary of his death in October 2019. Earlier in 2020, the leader of PBDNJ, Vangjel Dule still refused to take a clear position on Kacifa’s act and demanded to have more precise information on the circumstances of his death. AMADEU ANTONIO STIFTUNG Bes-ARTTalk 10:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

This is meant to be a small paragraph summarizing the case, so naturally, some things are missing. But regarding the issues you mentioned.

There is a misunderstanding about his origin. Katsifas was born in Bularat, from where he and his family originated. In 1990, at the age of 7, he and his family (father, mother, and three sisters) migrated to Athens; like it happened with many Greeks from Albania. At the time of his death, he was living between Athens, Ioannina, and his village of Bularat; in fact, during the last years of his life he worked in southern Albania as a metalworker. The article you shared, which does indeed say that his family hailed form Ioannina, was published on 28 October 2018 (the day he died and received notability); thus, it falls under WP:AGE MATTERS and WP:RSBREAKING. Furthermore, the sources you shared don't say anything about his family being blocked in Albania in 1945; i am not saying it's false, but it lacks verifiability. In any case, since this is meant to be a small paragraph, the details concerning his residency could perhaps be omitted, along with the explanation of the Ohi Day in the same sentence (celebrating the Greek soldiers who died in the Greco-Italian War).

Regarding Katsifas allegedly being the first to open fire, it can be mentioned as you suggested above; i have no problem with that. But, we cannot attribute this action to "the Greek irredentist cause in Southern Albania". Even the source you shared says "allegedly", and there are other sources stating that Katsifas fired the gun because he had previously quarreled with a local police officer. Both views can be included with in-text attribution. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:00, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@Bes-ART: Happy New Year to you and your loved ones. A week has passed since our last exchange. What do you think of my last comment? Demetrios1993 (talk) 04:23, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks and Happy New Year to you. I agree with the suggestion to remove "for the sake of the Greek irredentist cause in Southern Albania". In the second source you send I believe that it says that he spent a large part of his daily life in Greece. Maybe that detail is redundant but I also haven't found sources which refute the source about his origins from Ioannina. To make it simpler we could remove the sentence about his connection to Bularat and only mention that he was in the village on October 28 for the Ohi day without calling him a resident of Bularat. This is because the term "resident" has a certain definition, for example by law, everywhere in Europe is considered someone who lives over 3 months in that country [3]Bes-ARTTalk 08:11, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the second source says that he lived much of the year in Athens and Ioannina, and that during his last years he worked in southern Albania as a metalworker. Though, according to the first source of my previous comment, his base was located in Bularat, where he had his workshop. The same source also says, that during the last summers of his life, he worked as a bartender in a club of Mykonos; patiently waiting for the end of the season to return to Bularat. Anyway, i did propose as well above for his residency to be omitted, since this is meant to be a small paragraph in an article that has RENEA as its scope; these are arguably trivial details. But, i have no problem with the inclusion of both views, regarding the reason he initially fired his weapon.

Revised Suggested Version:

October 2018: During an operation by RENEA, the 35-year-old Greek Konstantinos Katsifas died on the mountainside over the village of Bularat, in Gjirokastër. He had helped organize the local commemoration for the anniversary of the Ohi Day on 28 October. His death was criticized by the Greek Foreign Ministry, calling it "unacceptable", and demanded a thorough investigation; Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama followed by describing Katsifas as an "extremist". Katsifas allegedly opened fire on the Albanian police with an AK-47, prompting the RENEA forces to later intervene; it is reported that the reason he initially attacked, was either "for the sake of the Greek irredentist cause in Southern Albania", or because he had previously quarreled with a local police officer. The exact circumstances of his death are a matter of dispute. The judicial investigation of the case was assigned to the Prosecutor's Office in Gjirokastër. On 22 April and 13 September 2021, the Prosecutor's Office requested for the case to be closed, stating that Katsifas committed suicide; this was dismissed by the court of Gjirokastër, for failure of the Prosecutor's Office to provide sufficient evidence. On 13 December 2021, the court accepted the request and closed the case. According to Albanian forensic experts, Katsifas committed suicide and died of two wounds to the chest, caused by contact shots; RENEA's initial admission that it killed Katsifas wasn't taken into account. A Greek forensic expert who examined the body concluded that Katsifas died of two wounds to the chest from a distance of approximately 25 meters. The Public Prosecutor's Office in Athens also began its own investigation on 8 December 2019, due to Katsifas also being a Greek citizen.

Do you agree with this version? Demetrios1993 (talk) 07:26, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it looks fair enough! You can continue editing the article, waiting for future developments and although the story is much longer and more complex, this seems to be the maximum we can do right now given that the focus of the page is RENEA and not the case itself. Bes-ARTTalk 08:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, i will update the article. If any new relevant information arises, we can discuss it again here. Demetrios1993 (talk) 04:34, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

References