Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump

Harris citizenship and birtherism deserves its own article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The consensus of the discussion was not split (non-admin closure) Cremastra (talk) 01:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

---

With how big it’s getting on the GOP, it should have its own article. Vinnylospo (talk) 13:49, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose split, this is only part of Trump's claims and the correct spot for it is here. Even if there were an article made, I would honestly vote to have it merge to this one. — That Coptic Guy^{ping me!} (talk) (contribs) 00:55, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. I doubt this will be any different than the "shithole countries" incident. Trump says so many outlandish things, we'd need some pretty extraordinary and extended coverage (actual news coverage, not pundits talking) to single this one out for its own article. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:18, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. If Trump goes through a week without saying something outrageous, that would be news. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:16, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trump’s Charleston Comments

It has been proven that the claim that Trump called Neo-Nazis “fine people” is a full fledged lie. The video of the interview proves it. Exact quote is "I'm not talking about the Neo-Nazis or the White Nationalists because they should be condemned totally. I'm talking about people other than the Nazis or Nationalists who were treated badly by the press. Each group had fine people but also had bad people” Dreadpirate43 (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Trump Racism Page has a glitch

someone planted a glitch in the wiki page summarizing Trump’s extensive history of racism. The page resets every time the subsections are clicked. This is likely a deliberate cover-up. Please fix it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump 72.88.209.10 (talk) 21:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Changing the title

Extended content

I'm hoping to get a consensus that the title needs to change. The title doesn't accurately reflect the article's contents. The first sentence: "Donald Trump... has a history of speech and actions that have been viewed by scholars and the public as racist or sympathetic to White supremacy" shows the article is not discussing his views, but his speech and actions, failing WP:PRECISE. A title change has been discussed a few times before on this page (e.g. [1], [2] and [3]). If a consensus that the title needs to change is established, alternatives can be discussed. This can involve discussing options, and then putting them to an RfC. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC) then suggest alternates and conduct a poll. we're not going to do a yes-or-no name change, then decide a title if that is somehow successful. ass-backwards. ValarianB (talk) 20:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC) @Rollinginhisgrave: I agree with you. I advise you to read ValarianB's comment and do as they suggested. JacktheBrown (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) and then putting them to an RfC. WP:RM, rather. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC) Yes RM sorry. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks ValarianB, JacktheBrown and Mandruss for the input. I'll reframe: Racial views of Donald Trump should be renamed, as the article is not about his views, but rather his comments and actions as seen in the lede sentence. Unless there is consensus that there are not issues with the current title, I will be putting this to a requested move.

This post is an effort to establish what options will be put forward at the requested move. Some prior suggestions include Donald Trump and race, Donald Trump and racism, Donald Trump and racial issues and Accusations of racism against Donald Trump. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that you may be missing the point of the page. We can't read his mind, obviously, so we'll never have perfect proof of any of his views. But we do have evidence of his views in the form of his words and actions. Which is what this article is about. Loki (talk) 04:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou Loki for making this comment; it's certainly worth making and discussing. I did consider this and rejected it as conduct can be (characterized as) racist without us being able to extrapolate views. Does he have prejudice towards this race, or is he being Machiavellian? The latter is frequently asserted as why he lies; that's what makes them lies rather than delusions. Reliable sources on the left of the American political spectrum [1][2][3] explicitly discuss his racism as a strategy.

Taking sources describing conduct as racist without them relating it to views and adding their conduct here is original research. Moreover, as evidence that the page is not about views but actions and words characterized as racist: the lede doesn't mention the word/concept. A useful comparison here is Racial views of Winston Churchill § Views of Churchill towards race. You may take this as an argument to cut the 90% of the article which fails verifiability rather than renaming.

I may have this upside down and am extremely open to being wrong, please assume good faith of me, I will certainly be doing so of you. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Addendum: I missed an important reason why sources may not link actions to views apart from strategy: they may not want to try to "read his mind". Given such a source, we should not be more willing to try. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

What to? Slatersteven (talk) 11:51, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven This post is an effort to establish what options will be put forward at the requested move. Some prior suggestions include Donald Trump and race, Donald Trump and racism, Donald Trump and racial issues and Accusations of racism against Donald Trump. This is an effort to brainstorm options and decide which to include in a requested move (unless consensus is against a requested move). Do you have any suggestions apart from the ones listed above? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:10, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

NO, as I am unsure a title change is needed, and I do not sign blank cheques. Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven (last ping) No blank checks needed; if editors including yourself at an RM reject alternatives no changes occur to the title. An RM also won't go ahead if there's a consensus that there aren't issues with the title, so if you think there aren't issues with WP:PRECISE, this is the place to speak your mind. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I think 'Accusations of racism against Donald Trump' is most appropriate. By its framing, the article cannot be an impartial exploration of Trump's views. Riposte97 (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I think 'Accusations of racism against Donald Trump' is most appropriate. By its framing, the article cannot be an impartial exploration of Trump's views. Riposte97 (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: please propose the new title; to do this, initiate a move request. If it convinces me, I will vote in favour. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 16 November 2024

Racial views of Donald Trump → Accusations of racism against Donald Trump – given that no one else has proposed a title and the discussion has been going on for days without a result, I take the advice of Riposte97 as good; since I'm the OP, I'm in favor of changing the title. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, as stated above. The current name is a perfectly fine description of the page. Expecting a page about views to be about mind-reading is an unreasonable expectation. Such a page must necessarily be about the words and actions of its subject because that's how we know what his views are. Furthermore, I think that renaming the page to this specific suggestion is a violation of WP:CLAIM as it suggests that there have merely been "accusations" of racism against Donald Trump. Loki (talk) 23:29, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
  • @LokiTheLiar: in my opinion, there were both certainly not nice phrases said by Donald Trump (to be kind), and real accusations of racism against him; I think the truth lies perfectly in the middle. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
  • LokiTheLiar Can you respond to the response above, namely that as most sources don't extrapolate his views from his actions, we shouldn't be willing to go further than they are, and that by extrapolating his views from his actions, despite some reliable sources arguing against this practice, we are performing original research? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

    When a source quotes Donald Trump directly, we do not need the source to explicitly state "and Donald Trump believes what he said" for that conclusion to not be original research.

    Similarly, when a source mentions something racist Trump did, it's usually very obviously relevant to this article. So for instance, the fact that Trump was found by a court to be discriminating against black people is clearly relevant to this article whether or not the source explicitly connects it to his views. Loki (talk) 03:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks Loki for the response. The points are in, over to the jury to deliberate. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Editors should read the discussion above for the justification for a name change: the page does not claim to be about his views but rather "actions and speech" characterised as racist. These are two different concepts. Editors are also invited to comment on alternative names proposed, including Donald Trump and racism, Donald Trump and race and Donald Trump and racial issues. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support change to Donald Trump and racism or Donald Trump and racial issues as better fits the scope of the article as it stands and the reliable sources it covers, weakly support change to Accusations of racism against Donald Trump: I sympathize with Loki that this runs up against WP:CLAIM, but the idea that it suggests that accusations are the extent of the scope matches the article's actual content, which uses attribution rather than wikivoice: viewed by scholars and the public as racist or sympathetic to White supremacy rather than are racist. Oppose Donald Trump and race, broader scope than article covers. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose No one makes him say or do stuff, and yes, it is analyzed. We reflect what RS say. Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Slatersteven, could you clarify if "we reflect what RS say" is contra Loki's point that we can extrapolate his views from his actions and it not be original research? Is it a refutation of my claim that the majority of sources are not relating his actions to his interiority? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
    • I do not care what their reasons are, I have stated mine, RS has commented on his actions and words, and deeds. Nor am I sure what you are talking about. I can find any number of sources (including court cases) where his Words, deeds, and actions have been found to be racist. Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
      • His words, "deeds" and actions (not sure how you're distinguishing the latter two) can be found to be racist, but this can be in intent, (reflecting internal views), effect, or both. Does this clear up my meaning? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
        • No, as none of this is internal, as he has openly expressed racists views (as stated by RS) and carried out racist actions (as stated by RS) and had been found to have done so by courts, so it is not internalized. Slatersteven (talk) 13:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
          • The majority of RS say he has said and done racist things rather than say he has "expressed racist views". A subset analyze this conduct as expressing his views, another subset analyze them as a strategy. Most don't try to analyze intent. If the majority of sources aren't commenting on intent, framing his conduct around it is giving undue weight. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose changing to Accusations of racism against Donald Trump, support keeping the same title or changing it to the aforementioned Donald Trump and racism. A great majority of the academic sources I've read state plainly and simply that his views regarding illegal immigrants, Mexicans and Muslims are "racist". But the current title is somewhat balanced, so I wouldn't care if it stayed the same. I also agree with Loki's comment in the thread above, this article is about Trump's views on race. Badbluebus (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. Some appear to be using Support/Oppose as to this specific proposal. Others are using them as to any move at all. This makes the bolded word fairly useless for a quick assessment of consensus. And it's effectively a democratic vote, since there is no clear policy basis for any argument. I'll !vote below without a bolded word. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
  • The key policy disagreement is whether the title is precise, which requires article titles unambiguously define the topical scope of the article. There is a disagreement over whether the current title does this and whether alternatives do it better, as well as whether alternatives have other policy issues (particularly POV considerations). Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Yeah, well in my opinion Donald Trump and racism unambiguously define[s] the topical scope of the article and does not present an NPOV problem. Others will disagree, and so much for the benefit of policy in discussions like this. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
      • Do you think it does this more or less than the current title? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
        • My !vote below answers that as well as I can. Generally, I think we agonize too much over article titles, and policy can be unhelpfully complicated, nuanced, and overthought, and often is. So, when I participate in RMs at all, which isn't often, I like to give my opinion and leave. If a closer chooses to discount my argument, I won't lose any sleep. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
• I like Donald Trump and racism as about as vague and bland as we could get, which imo is a good thing for such a controversial topic. (I vaguely recall being here before, and I think I said something similar then.) But "accusations" should be "allegations"; see Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose These are not mere accusations, of which there exist myriad for so many politicians. These include large numbers of statements, policies, rulings, and actions before and during his political life. Maybe another title would be an improvement. But this proposal would be less accurate. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
• oppose trump has a long and well-documented history of comments and actions characterized as racist, just calling them accusations is a whitewash. no pun intended. ValarianB (talk) 13:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Support per my reasoning above. I'd also note that there is OR going on in this thread, which I trust the closer will disregard. No preponderance of the RS actually purport to go as far as this article does. Riposte97 (talk) 02:27, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Political Parties

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2024 and 5 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mackenziejharmon (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by PurdueGrad29 (talk) 18:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)