Talk:Radium Girls

Further injuries

• It's not at all true, as this article said up until today, that "there were no further injuries to dial painters" after 1928. There were quite a few cases in Ottawa, Ill. of the "Living Dead" as they were called, and many others that were hushed up in out-of-court settlements. Im simply taking it out and leaving the rest of the article as - is. But I agree, this needs work. Bill Kovarik. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkovarik (talk • contribs) 12:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Categorizing

• Why isn't this article categorized as part of feminist history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.48.168 (talk) 03:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Feel free. --JeffJ (talk) 04:27, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Radium Dial Company

• I think this article could be substantially improved by factoring in some research as to the history of the Radium Dial Company. Radium Dial moved to Ottawa Illinois from Chicago in 1922. Radium Dial operated in Ottawa 'til 1932 when it shut down for a period of time in reaction to a lawsuit, then resumed again under the new moniker "Luminous Processes" a short distance from the original Ottawa site. Luminous Processes operated 'til 1978. Ottawa is radioactive to this day. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/PHA/ottawa/ott_p1.html This documentary http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284691/#comment goes into considerable depth (and is very difficult to watch - it includes interviews with survivors, most of which suffered horrible crippling and disfiguring injuries) Review and summary of the film here http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEFD71430F935A1575AC0A961948260 It's not hard to find quite a lot of documentation as to Ottawa's experience - this article should include it. I strongly recommend a viewing of the documentary film - it must be seen to be believed. Additional references:
  • http://www.junkscience.com/oct98/radgirls.htm
  • http://www.roger-russell.com/jeffers/radiumdials.htm

SVDasein (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The term "Radium Girls"

You make some good points but there are several places besides Ottawa where this happened, and even additional documentaries. For example, US Public Television some years ago showed one called "Radium City." It dealt mostly with radium dial painting in a Chicago suburb that continued well into the 1960s. It was made in the late 1980s , I think, and had interviews with "survivors" as well as very old footage from the 1920s showing painters actually doing that work (in New York state).

This article is about a particular set of painters in New Jersey. We could either leave it as is and start a separate, more general one on radium painting, or we could turn this one into a more general article (and also change its name). Anyone have any preferences? Pzavon (talk) 04:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

—

I think it might be the case that the Chicago suburb you're referring to is in fact Ottawa. The film "Radium City" is almost exclusively about Ottawa IL (see the NYT article above).

Minor nitpick here; Ottawa, Illinois is about 75 miles west-southwest of Chicago, which places it outside the reach to be considered a "suburb"...--75.145.170.97 (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

My reasoning behind the notion of including Ottawa's experience in this article is due to what may be some confusion on my part: I got the impression that the book "Radium Girls" was the inspiration for this article's title. While I've only skimmed the book and read summaries/reviews, I've gotten the sense that the book's use of the term is not restricted to the New Jersey women but rather refers to the aggregate of the women performing the work throughout the U.S. I've not turned up anything thus far suggesting that the term "Radium Girls" is commonly used as a proper noun referring exclusively to a group of people in New Jersey. If there's some reference indicating otherwise then I stand corrected. The book is available online to some extent here: http://books.google.com/books?id=onC4lpI5_RkC&printsec=frontcover ( If you search for Ottawa, you'll find the term occurs throughout the book, and you can read some of the references ) SVDasein (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok - I think I see what you're getting at: Several of the instances of the phrase "Radium Girls" in the article are referent to a colloquialism that was applied to five women involved in a lawsuit against US Radium Corp. in NJ. The *book* "Radium Girls : Women and Industrial Health Reform" by Claudia Clark uses the term in a more general sense. My confusion arises from the fact that this article relies on both senses of the term - the specific and the general - somewhat interchangably. Perhaps the article should explore *both* senses explicitly? SVDasein (talk) 09:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I hate to beat what appears to be a dead horse, but I've not lost the sense that the term "Radium Girls" has a widely used broader meaning. Witness these google results. Is it worth stating that the article describes a subset of individuals who can justifiably said to be included in the group of people delineated by the moniker "Radium Girls"? As it stands I feel the article may be paying homage to the root of an implied etymological evolution rather than the group of people it actually describes, and I can't help thinking that the larger phenomena is more important. SVDasein (talk) 04:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Radium and Uranium are two very different things. Radium paint was used to paint dials for see-in-the-dark use. Uranium was not used in that way. There is no broader category called "Uranium Girls." The group designated "Radium Girls" are specifically defined by a ciscumstance in Illinois and are actually a subset of the larger phenomenon called "Radium Dial Painters" who had members/victims in New Jersey and New York as well as Illinois and elsewhere. I would agree that this article might be retitled and reworked to address the entire Radium Dial Painter experience, or it might be pruned to focus more clearly only the movie based on the Illinois experience and using that title, leaving the rest for a broader article on radium dial painting generally. Pzavon (talk) 03:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

My use of the word "Uranium" was a mistake - I meant Radium (corrected above) 69.60.123.206 (talk) 09:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Correct data on closure in 1978???

Please can you locate the exact closure date_I'm pretty sure it was not as late as 1978-please locate the correct date as this is reallly interesting. For a company to last that long hurting people-belies reason.--Read-write-services (talk) 01:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC) ==

Yes it's mind bending, but it's true: http://www.epa.gov/R5Super/npl/illinois/ILD980606750.htm I actually spent about six months in Ottawa in the mid 1980s. During that time I never ran into anyone or anything that gave any mention or indication of the hazards around the city (aside from the unexplained cement domes one encounters when leaving town). If you watch the documentary I refer to (above) you'll find yourself dumbfounded through the vast majority of it - the citizenry was as far as I can tell just basically blind to it for decades. SVDasein (talk) 09:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Additional references:

• http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/PHA/ottawa/ott_p1.html
• http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/pha/ottawa/ott_p2.html

The second article notes that "tip wetting" ended in 1926. SVDasein (talk) 09:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit

"rv: perhaps a well meaning edit, but the spice of relevant and hearty context sure beats politically correct historical revisionism any day"

My intent was hardly "historical revisionism"! The reason I changed the statment "In a chilling prelude to the atomic bomb radiation unleashed by the United States during World War II, the U.S. Radium Corporation hired some 70 women to perform..." is because it SOUNDS poorly worded. "the atomic bomb radiation released during WWII" is miniscule compared to the amount of fallout released by the thousands of nuclear weapons detonated by both superpowers in the decades afterward. This is a time more aptly encompassed by the term "atomic age". Furthermore the sentance seems to draw an implicit connection between the radium corporation's negligence and the US Gov.'s nuclear ambitions and that's just silly.--Deglr6328 17:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for adding clarity to your initially terse explanation. The rhetorical jungle of Wikiedit summaries is rife with accusations of ad hominem attacks, an issue that could, hopefully, be tabled without need for further attention. Attending to content, the initial bombing was 'a shot heard round the world', climaxing the rush to harness radiation a bit more effectively than merely lighting up watch faces. While nuclear testing and atomic energy waste have drenched the likes of Chernobl in radioactivity, such manifestations of the atomic age pale somewhat when comparison is made to the attention given to the Hiroshima bombing. So, yes, the wording may need revision, or perhaps deletion as you suggest, but the inherent dangers of harnessing radiation were not handled well by US Radium then, just as case remains with nuclear waste and atomic bomb tests today. As a historical matter concerning the risk management of radioactive materials, simply referencing the atomic age does not seem to do justice, within the article, to the significance of labor abuse by military contractors. Ombudsman 20:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ok I can agree with most of that, I just don't like the comcept of comparing the Ra girl "incident" in which negligence (and some ignorance?) was at fault for the harm induced in the workers at the factory to a act which purposely resulted in the obliteration of tens of thousands of lives during a war.... What about what I have added now: "In what may be seen as a chilling prelude to the use of nuclear weaponry and the atomic age as a whole, in which lack of concern for exposure to radiological hazards was at times endemic; the Radium Girl episode holds an important place in the history of both the progression of the field of health physics and of the labor rights movement."?--Deglr6328 06:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have a problem with the quote

"sometimes to surprise their boyfriends when the lights went out."

First, given the percentage of homosexuals in society and the number of radium girls (10%) clearly 7 'radium girls' were homosexual. Clearly, they did not paint their nails or teeth for a boyfriend. The 7 'radium dykes' demand representation.

Second, there is no sitation at all that substantiates that any 'radium girl' colored her teeth or her nails. I want a sitation.

Without the necessary sitations the quote smacks of sexism.

---

tony

The above text was added on 1 Dec 2007 by 24.12.122.181

Hi, I don't know much about computers and editing etc but here is a link to an interview with a "radium girl" in which she states they would sneak home paint to paint their toenails. Re the above request for citation. I don't know how to put it in, but if someone else would like to then here it is:

http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/private/cdn-nucl-l/0606/msg00033.html

Rachel :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.75.37.125 (talk) 07:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

request citation

I added a request for a citation to the statement "industrial safety standards were demonstrably enhanced for many decades." This seems to imply that standard may have been loosened in recent decades, or it could mean nothing much at all. At any rate, a citation of a real quote of what this lawsuit meant would be clearer. 64.252.85.0 (talk) 20:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the above request for citation and, therefore, removed this claim as well as the claim for a citation for the preceding sentence "The Radium Girls saga holds an important place in the history of both [...]". One might argue that the exact meaning of the sentences are not clear and that they would need a clarification, but they are quite self evident and in no need to be verified by a citation. As for anyone not understanding the sentence "industrial safety standards were demonstrably enhanced for many decades.", it means that there were little to no industrial safety before the lawsuit and that the lawsuit was used as an encouragement for others to request better safety standards for years afterwards. I don't really see how anyone could interpret it as an implication of worsening in recent decades. --167.83.9.26 (talk) 07:34, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

request a better citation

I would like to see a better citation for the statement:

"..while the owners and their scientists — familiar with the effects of radium — carefully avoided any exposure to it themselves; chemists at the plant used lead screens, masks and tongs."

The citation listed points to a blog post (http://www.damninteresting.com/undark-and-the-radium-girls) in which the author makes the same statement without any citation of his own. At the end of his post, he lists this Wikipedia article as "Further Reading". Seems a bit circular. Where is the evidence for the claim that the company knew of the effects, had its owners and scientists "carefully avoid exposure" but then not encourage their workers to do the same?

Other Incidents of this nature

There must somewhere be other records of this sort of thing. Most of the aircraft used in WWII had instruments whose dials had been painted in luminous paint, often using radium based paints. I was aware of a factory in Clerkenwell in London probably used for this purpose at some time in the past. When we came across this in 1990 the building was in use as a wine warehouse, but there was an awful lot of radiation in the building when an analysis was done. Most of this building was decontaminated and the waste removed to UKAEA at Harwell. Soarhead77 (talk) 12:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the "Radium Dial Painters" data set at http://cedr.lbl.gov/ for an indication of the extent of this problem. There is also an interesting summary at http://www.rerowland.com/dial_painters.htm that might be a good source for expanding and generalizing this article. A google search on "radium dial painters" brings up several additional items. Pzavon (talk) 02:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those links - very useful. Soarhead77 (talk) 15:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ottawa? New Jersey?

I find it very confusing that the entry initially says the workers were in New Jersey and then it mentions employees in Illinois further down. Also, could the location of the Canadian workers be specified? Risssa (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Ottawa Memorial

A memorial to the Ottawa women was erected in 2011 and should be mentioned in any revision of this article or creation of a separate one treating the Ottawa events. http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/32596 http://www.greatplainslaborer.org/single_pic.cfm?PicID=319545&GalleryID=9624 http://www.voanews.com/content/radium-girls-remembered-for-role-in-shaping-us-labor-law-129169888/144746.html Cigardener55 (talk) 14:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Removed list

I've chopped the "In literature, music and film" section as the entries were either unsourced, sourced to primary sources and/or in some cases apparent spam. Such a section could be useful if properly sourced. Vsmith (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Request to include Arthur Roeder

Arthur Roeder was the president of the United States Radium Corporation

• RADIUM PLANTS COMBINE.; Form U.S. Radium Corporation, With Arthur Roeder as Head. 2. Sept 1921 The New York Times
• N. Y. State gets Radium
• [1]
• Bernays, Edward L. (7 April 2015). Biography of an Idea: The Founding Principles of Public Relations. ISBN 9781497698673.

• Hearings. 1929.

• Short bio of Arthur Roeder Railway Engineering and Maintenance. 1938. Born 1884 Pleasantvile N.J. graduated from Cornell University in 1907 became junior engineer in Newark, Became general Manager of Robert H. Ingersoil & Brothers, After his time as president of the Radium Corporation he became vicepresident of the American Linseed Company and later president of the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company.

• Congress, United States (1925). Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates of the ... Congress.

https://books.google.de/books?id=5dNGAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA24-PP1}}

• Suspension of Annual Assessment Work on Certain Mining Claims: Hearing Before the Committee on Mines and Mining, House of Representatives, Sixty-eighth Congress, First Session, on H.J. Res. 142, a Joint Resolution to Suspend the Requirements of Annual Assessment Work on Certain Mining Claims for a Period of Three Years. February 5, 1924. 1924.

--Stone (talk) 21:26, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Writing and Reading Women Back into History

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2023 and 3 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Taysun20 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Taysun20 (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

why the name radium girls

this only mentions women and not men too

this seems more of a female empowerment article since what about the men that died. thats bot mentioned Krabs7281 (talk) 15:56, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: 4A Wikipedia Assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 16 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Spaige1500 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Toner1111, Mmedrano10.

— Assignment last updated by Kmijares (talk) 22:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: English 111 First-Semester College Composition

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2024 and 14 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rrriley (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Rrriley (talk) 02:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Request citation change

¨Many of the workers became sick; over 30 died from exposure to radiation by 1927.^{[citation needed]} ¨

¨In all, by 1927, more than 50 women had died as a direct result of radium paint poisoning(NPRhttps://www.npr.org/2014/12/28/373510029/saved-by-a-bad-taste-one-of-the-last-radium-girls-dies-at-107)¨.

¨By 1927, more than 50 women had died because of radium paint poisoning(How stuff works https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/radium-girls.htm#:~:text=The%20legacy%20of%20the%20radium,because%20of%20radium%20paint%20poisoning.¨.

The more accurate number of deaths by 1927 seems to be over 50, in the second article I listed references James Stemm, curator of the National Museum of Nuclear Science & History. This seems to be more reliable unless anyone has the citation for the 30 deaths by 1927? Rrriley (talk) 03:47, 20 October 2024 (UTC)