Talk:Raga rock

This page is totally extraneous; "Raga rock" is a poetic description, not a useful musical categorization, especially for sixties music since it encompasses a handful of songs and can be used vaguely to describe many others--this should be merged with "psychedelic rock" or deleted.

Actually, something like this page is usefull and appropriate. There have been articles and books written on the term and/or the ideas it encompasses (see the "orientalism" section I just added). I think if we could spruce it up a bit and make it more academic, it wouldn't be extraneous. And it refers both to the use of Indian music materials as well as poetic conent, so don't be so quick to dismiss it. The use of non-Western musical materials the the interpretation of the non-Western through a Western medium is quite common in Western music history. 209.45.205.143 (talk) 13:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

PS - sorry, I haven't mastered the "response indent" yet. 209.45.205.143 (talk) 13:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Orientalism

I just added the section on Orientalism. Could someone please help me with the citation information for my Bellman quote? I've added to articles before but this was my first footnote. I almost got it, but as you can see in the "Notes" section a few extra things came through. Thanks 209.45.205.143 (talk) 13:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I am about to sit down

and listen to "The End (The Doors song)" but have doubts as to whether it belongs here. Any other thoughts? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 17:19, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Friends and Four Sticks by Led Zeppelin should be here.FunkMonk (talk) 13:22, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

My opinion is that yes, "The End" is indeed raga rock and does belong here. The song's guitar part definitely has that Indian, modal sound to it. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 12:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. They do get a real drone thing happening. Carptrash (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

A couple of issues regarding content and scope

Kohoutek1138 and I have been discussing some points about the article at my talk page for a day or two, which I think belongs here. I'm too lazy to edit or paraphrase, so here's how it's gone:

• "Bus Stop" by the Hollies as raga rock?

• Hey JG66, I see that you've been helping improve the raga rock article recently and doing a great job too! I've added a few things myself recently and previously, so it's great to work with you to knock the article into shape. However, I have a problem with the inclusion of the song "Bus Stop" as an example of the Hollies' raga rock experimentation. To my ears it's not raga rock at all. Furthermore, it's not raga rock by the definition of the sub-genre as laid out in the article's lead. There is no exotic instrumentation on it, it has no drone, it doesn't utilise quasi-Indian scales etc. I realise that "Bust Stop" has a supporting reference, but I believe the reference to be mistaken. As such, I think this might be a case of "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion", as per WP:ONUS. The Hollies did experiment with raga sounds, notably on the songs "Water on the Brain" from the Evolution album, and "Maker" from Butterfly. But "Bus Stop"? I don't think so. Thoughts? --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:38, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

• Kohoutek1138, hi – yeah, I had a couple of edit conflicts and realised I wasn't alone there! Nice to have the company. You could be right about "Bus Stop". It's been a long while since I heard any Hollies, but I did do an about-take when I read Everett's point. (I wonder if he's referring to the single's B-side.) His books are excellent sources, but he could be wrong – we can easily take the Hollies mention back to that catch-all sentence for Donovan, the Doors, the Moodies, etc. I've got more to add on the Moodies' Lost Chord album, anyway.
• One question about your recent additions: are you sure the Editors of Rolling Stone ref mentions raga rock for "It's All Too Much"? I've got the book somewhere here, but I seem to remember Greg Kot writing about "raga flavor" or something. Thing is, there's no end of Harrison songs that are described as raga-like, raga-esque, but they're not raga rock. JG66 (talk) 18:02, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

• Agree with lumping the Hollies in with Donovan, the Doors, the Moodies, etc. Good idea and we can loose the specific mention of "Bus Stop" which sticks out to me like a sore thumb. As for "It's All Too Much", yes, I believe you're right about the Rolling Stone book saying "raga-flavoured". However, given the song's Indian-style vocal melody, the fact that it drones on one chord (G) for most of the song (alternating to C briefly), and the fact that it is of 1967 vintage -- a period when Harrison was in the middle of his Indian-style period of songwriting -- I'd say that it's very definitely a raga rock song. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

• Kohoutek1138: I've got to disagree there – you're joining the dots. By the same thinking, "Blue Jay Way" could easily qualify for raga rock, I imagine. In fact, "Too Much" (like BJW) is Indian/raga-flavoured in the way that a lot of psychedelic rock is, but until someone actually calls it "raga rock", I don't believe we can. JG66 (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Well, it's a rock song and we have a reference calling it raga-flavoured, so I think it's clearly raga rock. That's what raga rock is, after all: rock or pop music with an Indian or raga influence. The fact that the source doesn't actually say the words "raga rock" shouldn't preclude us from listing it as such, since that is clearly the author's inference. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:22, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• What are your feelings on the "Examples" section of the raga rock article? My feeling is that inline citations should be used to support the inclusion of tracks in the list where possible (I'm not sure it's needed if a song is already mentioned and referenced in the article itself). However, I think we need to accept that, for the vast majority of songs listed in this section, finding a source that explicitly states that the song is "raga rock" will be impossible. Myself, I'm very much an inclusionist Wikipedian, but I also believe in sourcing everything that possibly can be sourced in an article. So, I think inline refs should be found and added to the "Examples" section where possible, but if a song isn't contentious (i.e. it is pretty clearly raga-influenced) then we should take a common sense approach and simply leave it unsourced. That said, I'm really not a fan of list creep and I think there's a very real danger of this list of examples getting out of hand in the future, which we need to prevent. Thoughts? --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 11:18, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

As mentioned there, I'm slightly concerned by the rationale put forward that a song like the Beatles' "It's All Too Much" can be considered raga rock because it sounds very Indian and when a source only mentions the track's "raga-flavored groove". Yes, the definition of the subgenre is very loose – as the article says, "any rock song with obvious Indian influences may be deemed 'raga rock'" – but it's not for us to deem that a song is raga rock or worthy of inclusion here because it would seem to fit. With "It's All Too Much", I've since shuffled the point off to an end note, where it serves to illustrate a point about George Harrison's post-raga rock songwriting. (Whether that Harrison-specific point actually belongs at all, I'm still not sure. Plus, re "Too Much", I believe I could find sources for over 30 post-'65 Harrison tracks that are raga-flavoured/-inspired/-informed/-influenced/-like/-esque etc. And I'm mindful that there's probably no end of songs by McGuinn, Crosby, Donovan et al that are in some way raga-flavoured/-inspired/ [etc].)

Regarding the last question, Kohoutek: I'm not a fan of those lists, as a rule. Perhaps others are, and perhaps other music genre articles contain lists of examples – I could see a benefit to having one. Again, though, I don't agree that inclusion in a list of example recordings can be based on the idea that if we agree that something sounds like raga rock, then it's in – regardless of whether any source says the song is raga rock. I like to see an article well thought out and super-thorough in its coverage, but if no reliable source states that, say, Led Zep's "Friends" or ISB's "The Mad Hatter's Song" is a raga rock song, then (for Wikipedia's purposes) it's not. The other thing is that the subject of this article is raga rock, i.e. rock or pop; but not folk, and similarly not jazz, where (even more so that in folk) Indian influences were fused with the Western musical form, and some years before rock/pop artists first incorporated drone and sitar. It's right we outline the folk antecedents, and I think it's right to make some mention of the jazz-inclined, Indian-influenced rock made by Quintessence and the like. But if no source identifies a Quintessence song or album as raga rock, then it's no more than the briefest of mentions, purely to provide some context for how the music scene developed after raga rock's peak. JG66 (talk) 16:58, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

To address your first point, I think the inclusion of "It's All Too Much" is absolutely fine. The source refers to the song's "raga-flavored groove" and saying that a song has a raga flavor is basically synonymous with saying it has a raga influence, which is what the article says. I'm happy if you want the mention of "It's All Too Much" included as a note, rather than part of the article itself -- I have no problem with that. But it should definitely be included in the article somewhere, since we have a reliable source for it.

On a side note, I disagree that you'd be able to find "over 30 post-'65 Harrison tracks that are raga-flavoured". Harrison's overtly Indian rock compositions are relatively small in number, when viewed within the context of his entire Beatles and post-Beatles oeuvre. Aside from the songs already listed in the article (along with "Blue Jay Way" and McCartney's guitar solo on "Taxman"), I'd be hard pushed to think of any others. Likewise, the Byrds' raga rock experimentation is basically limited to their two albums from 1966 and 1967. After that, there's nothing remotely raga influenced in their music. So, an over abundance of examples isn't a convincing argument for non-inclusion to me in this instance, I'm afraid.

Who said anything about "overtly Indian rock compositions"? "flavoured" (or the like) can easily mean the opposite of anything overt – so I'm talking about a possible 30 that range from overt to subtly Indian. I'm still struggling to find anything convincing in your argument as well. JG66 (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

On the subject of the list of examples, I take a very inclusionist stance on such things, but I also understand your point that basing the list on what we or other editors might agree sounds like raga rock is not good enough. I guess ultimately, the question should be "does the inclusion of that list help new readers understand what raga rock is?" The answer to that, in my opinion, is no. That list is only useful if you are familiar with the songs listed and many readers won't be familiar with the majority of them. The most important and notable examples of raga rock are already mentioned in the body of the article itself, so I'd recommend deleting that entire section. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

To add some rationality to the example list at Bo Diddley beat, the following was proposed: "To help meet verifiablity, propose to include only songs that have WP articles that specifically say they use the beat or have an inline citation to a reference that confirms this (see WP:SOURCELIST)." A hidden note was added to the beginning of the list: <!--ONLY INCLUDE SONGS WITH WP ARTICLES OR INLINE CITATIONS THAT CONFIRM USING THE BEAT--> So far, it's worked reasonably well. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:39, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

That could work, Ojorojo. It would at least serve to cull a fair bit of the list, while retaining the most notable examples and, going foward, control or limit list creep, which I think is on the verge of becoming a very real problem for this artcle. I could definitely get on board with this as a workable solution. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 12:27, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Using this approach (only songs with a linked article or inline cite that specifically states "raga rock") severely reduces the list. And removing those already noted in the article leaves the following (up to 1996):

• "Grim Reaper of Love" – The Turtles (5/1966)
• "The End" – The Doors (1/1967) [ref]
• "White Summer" – The Yardbirds (7/1967) [ref]
• "Om" – The Moody Blues (7/1968)
• "Four Sticks" – Led Zeppelin (2/72) [ref]

It appears that many on the list are only there because they have some Indian-sounding element. At this point, I have to agree with Kohoutek1138's earlier view – the most important are already in the article (or should be) and the list doesn't serve a useful purpose – delete the section.

—Ojorojo (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

On a different note, Echard in Psychedelic Popular Music: A History through Musical Topic Theory puts the Yardbirds "Heart Full of Soul" first: "'Heart Full of Soul,' released in June 1965, is often said to have marked the arrival of raga rock ... It was followed in July by the gentler, more understated 'See My Friends' from the Kinks." (p. 5)[1] Several Yardbirds' discographies list the UK release date as June 4, 1965 (with a July release date in the US, see refs in article). The OCC shows chart entry date for "HFOS" on June 24, 1965, and August 11 for "SMF". Bellman, who apparently says the Kinks were first, may have gotten it wrong.

Also, I think it's noteworthy that the Yardbirds first attempted to record the song with an Indian sitar and tabla player (surviving as a demo). Later, they re-recorded it with Jeff Beck's interpretation of the sitar line (including an open-string drone), but kept the tabla. If there are no objections, I'll add this.

—Ojorojo (talk) 14:29, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

From a few books I've got or got access to (such as Lavezzoli, Brend, Bellman), the Kinks are listed first because their recording came a week or so before the Yardbirds. So I guess that's how the chronology comes together: if we're talking about "first" examples of raga rock, the pertinent point is who actually did it first.

I was always intending to add more on the Yardbirds, putting the sitar & tabla detail in an end note. (I first came here after taking a look at Sitar in popular music. Given the context there, it is important to discuss the original, abandoned recording for "Heart", in the main text; here, though, I'd say it's something for a note, as just an aside.) I hadn't realised they used tabla on the remake. JG66 (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Hinman lists the Kinks recording date as May 3, 1965,[2] which is also used by Hasted. Lavezzoli lists April 14 (access to Brend & Bellman is limited, so don't know what they say). The Yardbirds' first recording attempt was on April 13 and they completed it on April 20, 1965 (refs in article). The tabla is buried in most of the take, but noticeable in the intro & outro – I thought it was bongos, until Beck's quote. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Reworded the "1960s" section intro to reflect that both songs came out about the same time – Echard places "HFOS" first, while Bellman uses "SMF" – so it's a compromise. The readers can refer to the song articles for details. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I reworded the start of the 1960s section to better incorporate your new info, Ojorojo, but also preserve as much of JG66's good stuff as possible. Hopefully it reads better and is slightly clearer as a whole now. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 18:21, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

@Kohoutek1138: Your wording twice mentions "incorporated drone effects", which is only half of the picture. Beck isn't just playing a drone – there's also a riff or what Echard calls a "lead guitar hook" which he also based on the sitar line. This should be reflected in what Echard is "noting" and that Beck is trying to replicate. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Rather than continuing to go back and forth on this, here's a simplified rewording using additions to the earlier 13 July 2017 version:

Music researcher William Echard notes that "Heart Full of Soul" by the Yardbirds, which was released in June 1965, "is often said to have marked the arrival of raga rock". He points to the guitar part "in which Jeff Beck employs a fuzz effect to emulate an earlier demo version played on sitar." The song's use of the sitar-like figure, tone, and accompanying drone foreshadowed the "much broader trend circa 1966 towards guitar figures evocative of Indian motifs."The song reached number 2 on the UK chart. Author Andy Miller says that the subgenre's widespread popularity was preceded by the July 1965 release of "See My Friends", a top-ten single in the UK for the Kinks. Written by Ray Davies and inspired by a visit to India, the song used guitar to imitate the drone produced by an Indian tambura. The following month, the Yardbirds released "Heart Full of Soul", which featured a sitar-like guitar riff played by Jeff Beck. Music writer Andrew Grant Jackson adds, "Ray's vocal whine and drone lend his voice an Indian quality".

I believe this preserves JG66's version and incorporates Echard's comments for better subject coverage (earlier concerns). To simplify, left out Chapman, Santoro, and di Perna, since Echard covers the same. Suggestions? —Ojorojo (talk) 17:03, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem as I see it is with the recent(-ish) addition of the section's opening sentence: "The start of raga rock's rise to popularity has been traced to two songs which reached the UK top-ten in the summer of 1965." Because, neither source (Bellman, Lavezzoli) actually reports it this way. They each highlight the importance of the two tracks (although Lavezzoli makes no mention of raga rock per se), but neither author says that the subgenre "has been traced" to the Yardbirds and Kinks singles at all (in fact, if anything, Bellman says the opposite: that these songs, especially the Kinks single, are overlooked in favour of "Norwegian Wood"). So we're using them as examples to support what is in effect just editorialisation. To my mind, the lead at Heart Full of Soul does the same thing. The statement there that "Music writers have described his contribution as introducing Indian-influenced guitar stylings to rock music" is supported by three refs, but aren't they all just examples of music writers who hold this opinion? (There, I think it's a case of needing to remove the references from the lead and ensuring that the points are made in full in the article body. The lead can say that "Some music writers have described …", because that would merely be reflecting part of the content of the article.)

Perhaps it might be best to avoid the sentence ("The start of raga rock's rise to popularity …") altogether and just land at the discussion of HFOL. It's not ideal, of course, because it's always preferable to state a general point authoritatively, as fact. But if a source doesn't say it, then we can't.

Just an aside about Bellman: I don't know if it's because his piece was written in 1997 (I've got the original Journal of Musicology paper in Jstor), coinciding with the tailend of Britpop's veneration of Ray Davies, but his whole argument is very partisan towards the Kinks, in that he appears to have done his homework on all things Davies but he's pretty selective about what he draws on with regard to the Beatles and the Stones. Ojorojo, I thought your changes at See My Friends were very welcome. The previous version set Bellman's view as the last (the only) word on the subject. I'm not saying Bellman's a problem as such, but thought I'd flag it here. JG66 (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Bellman does a lot of stretching to convince us that SMF was first, which several writers don't agree on. Anyway, my wording above basically starts over and relies heavily on quoted material. If this doesn't address your concerns, maybe try a rewrite (you may not like the "marked the arrival" bit). Also, I see there have been some additions to the examples. Is the list worth saving? —Ojorojo (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd be cool with loosing the sentence starting "The following month...", @Ojorojo:.

Trimmed further and used a more neutral quote "is frequently cited ..." rather than "marked the arrival". —Ojorojo (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

References