Talk:Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Footnote 303 is depreciated

I think it can remain (for now), does someone disagree? FortunateSons (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Hitler didn't make public statements of this sort

"In public and private, Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler made complementary statements about Islam as a religion and a political ideology, describing it as a more disciplined, militaristic, political, and practical form of religion than Christianity, and commending what they perceived were Muhammad's skill in politics and military leadership."

According to the below source (which I found from Religious views of Adolf Hitler) Himmler made some public statements, but mostly indicating that Islam would be useful for emboldening the populace and encouraging soldiers to fight - not indicating personal admiration. The sort doesn't mention any public statements from Hitler. Neither Hitler nor Himmler are mentioned making any statements about "Muhammad's [ﷺ] skill in politics and military leadership".

I don't have enough edits to fix it myself. :)

https://web.archive.org/web/20191022055457/https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/fall-2014-the-great-wars/the-swastika-and-the-crescent/ Motorizedtrees (talk) 04:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The citation for that sentence is "Hitler's apocalypse : Jews and the Nazi legacy" page 59. I checked the page, and the only thing it says is:

Hitler concluded: ‘Germany will always recruit her staunchest friends from among those people who are actively resistant to Jewish contagion. I am sure that the Japanese, the Chinese and the peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France, in spite of the fact that we are related by blood. It is a tragedy that France has consistently degenerated in the course of centuries and that her upper classes have been perverted by the Jews. France is now condemned to the pursuit of a Jewish policy.’

According to Albert Speer's memior "Inside the Third Reich", (page 96)

"Hitler had been much impressed by a scrap of history he had learned from a delegation of distinguished Arabs. When the Mohammedans attempted to penetrate beyond France into Central Europe during the eighth century, his visitors had told him, they had been driven back at the Battle of Tours. Had the Arabs won this battle, the world would be Mohammedan today. For theirs was a religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and subjugating all nations to that faith. The Germanic peoples would have become heirs to that religion. Such a creed was perfectly suited to the Germanic temperament. Hitler said that the conquering Arabs, because of their racial inferiority, would in the long run have been unable to contend with the harsher climate and conditions of the country. They could not have kept down the more vigorous natives, so that ultimately not Arabs but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire.

Hitler usually concluded this historical speculation by remarking: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese ,who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” It is remarkable that even before the war he sometimes went on: “Today the Siberians, the White Russians, and the people of the steppes live extremely healthy lives. For that reason they are better equipped for development and in the long run biologically superior to the Germans.” This was an idea he was destined to repeat in far more drastictones during the last months of the war."

I have Montadel's books on the subject, "Islam and Nazi's Germany War" but I couldn't find a direct statement from Hitler himself.

Should I change that sentence to:?

"Nazi Germany used Islamic propoganda in the Muslim world in to recuit Muslim collaboraters for the German army (insert citation of Jeffery Herf's Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World here). Hitler said crisized Christianity for not being militarist enough, as opposed to the Bushido and Islam." Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Here’s the Wall Street journal talking about the subject, i think other notable nazi officials made statements about Islam but I can’t remember

https://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-ataturk-in-the-nazi-imagination-by-stefan-ihrig-and-islam-and-nazi-germanys-war-by-david-motadel-1421441724 Bobisland (talk) 20:01, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Subject on removal of Kurds and Nuremberg laws edit of lead

I don’t understand why these were removed, the source I used for Kurds says “The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race); they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd).”

and I don’t understand why synth was used to the remove Nuremberg laws text Bobisland (talk) 05:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bobisland: I explained Nuremberg in the previous section of this talk page. Regarding Kurds, after what you quote from some official, the source immediately says:

This definition of Aryan was clearly unacceptable. Not only did it include large numbers of non-European peoples such as Kurds and Afghans, but it also made the racial laws seem to be based on political expedience rather than science. Gercke [the racial expert of the Interior Ministry] replied that he would use the definition of Aryan established by the Expert Advisor for Population and Racial Policy (Sachverständigenbeirats für Bevölkerungs- und Rassenpolitik): “An Aryan is one who is tribally related (stammverwandte) to German blood. An Aryan is the descendant of a Volk domiciled in Europe in a closed tribal settlement (Volkstumssiedlung) since recorded history.” This definition managed to include Finns and Hungarians, and exclude Kurds and Afghans.

So the ministry "racial expert" and the government's "Expert Advisor" said Kurds are not Aryans, contradicting the claim previously in our article that Kurds are Aryans. Such contradictions between "experts" were normal and unless we want to expand on this type of internal debate we can't use it.

Incidentally, to get someone's attention on a talk page it is better to ping them rather than write on their talk page. To ping you on this occasion, I started with {{Re | Bobisland}} but there are other ways such as mentioning you with {{u | Bobisland}}. Zero^talk 06:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for catching my mistake and what about the Nuremberg laws text? I used this as the source “The Nazis made sure, with few exceptions, that the Nuremberg laws could be applied only to Jews, not to those other Semites, the Arabs, nor to Turks and Persians—which paradoxically allowed certain communities of Jews in Muslim regions to also survive the Shoah.”

from https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/nazi-romance-with-islam

and thanks for the ping info @Zero0000:

Bobisland (talk) 06:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bobisland: Please read the section above this one. Zero^talk 07:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Nuremberg Laws

The Nuremberg laws were an anti-Jewish measure and only that. They were not a definition of Nazi racial theory. They didn't even include groups such as black Africans who were considered barely human, so the fact that Arabs were not included does not in any way imply a positive attitude towards them. Including this fact here is a case of making an argument in wikivoice and an obvious violation of WP:SYNTH. Zero^talk 02:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The source in Tablet mentions the Nuremberg laws in the context of the Nazi's strategic reasons for promoting themselves in the Arab world, not in the context of racial theory. Placing this in the middle of a paragraph about the Nazi racial hierarchy seems to imply something about the Arab position in that hierarchy, but it didn't and I don't think that the source implies that it did. Rather, the source is saying that despite being semites the Nazis had political reasons for omitting Arabs, which is a different claim. (My opinion on the facts is irrelevant, but I doubt very much if the possibility of including Arabs was even considered; the Nuremberg Laws were about Jews and only about Jews.) Zero^talk 07:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok thanks I didn’t know that and thought it included racist laws too Bobisland (talk) 23:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Subject on commentary within the wiki page

I think the commentary on this wiki page has become excessive, giving conclusions the reader can easily make on their own, such as the statement of there being no unified perception of Nazism when the page shows political and military opposition and support to nazis, in which the reader can make the lack of unification conclusion themselves without needing to read one, I think these commentaries bring unnecessary filler to the page and would like to trim them Bobisland (talk) 19:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I think I'd agree. Feel free to trim down anything I wrote Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:45, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Should each country be placed in its own independent tab rather than grouped into Arab perceptions of nazis? I feel like there’s enough content now to do so Bobisland (talk) 08:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for responding late. College work got in the way.

I agree that each country should be in its own tab. Right now, I'd say the article is around 85% 'finished'; the Syrian section is missing (Gotz Nordbruch is a good source) and Algeria's support section (need to write about the 1934 pogram and the fascist movement in Algeria at the time). I don't think I could be really active until spring break, but hopefully I've left enough sources for someone to pick up and fill in the gaps. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I added a wiki link which has sources that semi contradict each other, in the text

“The Nazis also sterilized hundreds of "half-breeds", Germans of mixed Arab/North African heritage.”

did this mean Arabs and North Africans or North African/Afro-Arabs? Bobisland (talk) 01:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for being late. It referred to mixed Germans of native German and French colonial troops (Africans and Arabs). Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

ARBPIA

To editor Lectonar: Large parts of this article, especially the Palestine section, are right in the thick of the Palestine-Israel conflict. The events described there are argued about in countless books and articles about the conflict. Also, ARBPIA has always been construed to include events leading up to the creation of Israel, not just events following the creation. So I believe this article should at a minimum be labeled as CT/section. Zero^talk 02:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

scope

What does any of the section on Arab incorporation and emulation of Nazism have to do with relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world? Or Views on historical representation? Honestly, the part of that section that is most relevant to what a large part of this article is doing is the quote from Gershoni Israeli efforts to prove the tangible collaboration between the "Arab world" and Nazis. Unless there is some reason somebody can provide that connects those topics to the topic of this article I intend to go on a pruning run. nableezy - 13:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The movements in question (Young Egypt, SSNP, Ba'athism) were either active (in the case of Young Egypt and the SSNP) or in their infancy (in the case of Ba'athism) during this time period (1930's and 1940s). If the movements in this section were founded post-war then I'd agree they don't belong. Maybe we should move those info on those movements in their respective countries' sections? Or have a "Comparisons between Arab Countries and Nazi Germany" like how we have a Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

But they dont have any relations with Nazi Germany, the entirety of the section is about supposed similarities. As far as a Comparisons between Arab Countries and Nazi Germany, that would need sources treating that as a topic so as not to be WP:SYNTH. nableezy - 15:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the scope of this article should be more than just official relations between the governments, otherwise it couldn't talk about Amin al-Husseini, who was exiled from Palestine in 1937 and thus no longer represented the official foreign policy of the Mandate of Palestine.

A lot of people since the end of World War Two claimed that Arab movements "took inspiration" from Nazism. The Israelis-British-French alliance in 1956 famously called Nasser "Hitler on the Nile". A article or section delving into the historiography and historicity of that belief would be relevant. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It isn’t just between states, it’s with the Arab world not just with Arab states. But that requires relations between the two, not just oh they have similar views on some subjects. nableezy - 02:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I can add more on the direct relationship (I know Ahmed Hussein of Young Egypt wrote a letter to Hitler before the war).

Would we consider Arab commentary on the Nazis relevant? A large part of the Egypt section is about Egyptians (private citizens) who criticized Nazi Germany. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Generally no. This should be at relations that Nazi Germany had with the Arab world, not "relationships". And a letter to Hitler is likewise not part of relations with Nazi Germany. nableezy - 14:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I generally agree with Nableezy about the scope. However material about such things as the popular opinion in the Arab world towards Nazis and Nazism deserves to be covered somewhere even if it needs a new article. Zero^talk 14:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Is it the relationship Nazi Germany had with the Arab world or relationship the Arab world had with the Nazis? If it's the former then we would be cutting out the entire Arab side from the story. We couldn't discuss how Arabs tried to counter Nazi propaganda - for instance. If its the latter then we couldn't talk about times the Arabs tried to collaborate with the Nazis and were rejected. The title of this article suggests covering both - both how Arabs reacted to the Nazis and how Nazis reacted to the Arabs. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It's relations both ways, but a letter from some group to Hitler isn't exactly relations. nableezy - 15:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It would fall under the relationship that group had with the Nazis - but not the other way around, since the Nazis never bothered responding to Young Egypt. For example, Hitler refused to meet with Ahmed Hussein when he visited Berlin during his tour of Nazi Germany in 1938 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it wouldnt, that would require sourcing connecting that letter to the topic of this article. You cant just put stuff in that you feel is part of the topic, sources have to establish the connection. A unanswered letter some random Egyptian sent to Hitler both fails WP:WEIGHT and WP:SYNTH in this article. nableezy - 15:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Ahmed Hussein is already significant enough to warrant his own wikipedia page Ahmed Hussein (1911–1982) as well as Young Egypt Young Egypt Party (1933) .

My source is the work of James Jankowshi, who wrote extensively on Young Egypt, including a whole chapter in Confronting Fascism in Egypt : Dictatorship versus Democracy in The 1930s about the movement (Chapter 7) Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

And where in that source does it relate the Young Egypt Party and relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab World? nableezy - 17:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

"In terms of practical contact or collaboration, only circumstantial and inconclusive evidence indicates a tangible connection between Young Egypt and either Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany in the 1930s. We have found evidence of only one fleeting contact of sorts with the German government in the 1930s. In June 1934, Ahmad Husayn paid a visit to the German Legation in Cairo. According to the report of the German minister, Dr. Eberhard von Stohrer, the purpose of Husayn’s visit was to “express his sympathy for the new Germany” and also to obtain a visa to travel to Germany while in Europe later in the year. The minister refused to see Husayn when the latter requested a subsequent meeting. Minister von Stohrer’s evaluation of Young Egypt was that it was “extremely weak in terms of its finances” and “of no great significance.” - Confronting Fascism in Egypt : Dictatorship versus Democracy in The 1930s page 239

(The rest of the chapter mostly goes over YE's ideology and its connection to fascism)

"Visiting Berlin first, he was disappointed in his hope of meeting Hitler or other high officials, but was invited to return and attend the Nuremberg Party Congress in the fall. He spent a great deal of his time in Germany in visiting summer work-camps for German youth, and concluded his two weeks there by several days in Munich, visiting the historic sites of Nazism." - THE YOUNG EGYPT PARTY AND EGYPTIAN NATIONALISM, 1933-1945 page 153 (164 in the pdf)

The peak of Young Egypt's adulation for European fascism was reached during a trip to Europe in mid-1938 by Husayn. His articles describing Germany were all highly laudatory of Nazi achievements. The Nazi Party's summer work-camps were praised for bringing together "people of all classes" in labor for the benefit of the nation; the German Labor Front was characterized as a proper way to organize labor with "no swindling of the working classes. . . for there is no 'big' and no 'small' - all are members of one organization, and every worker works for the public interest before he works for himself" and termed "a return to true Islamic society where there was no employer and no employee but [where] all were brothers cooperating together"; and his final article from Germany, in the form of an open letter to Hitler, leaves no doubt as to the favorable impression

Egypt's young rebels : "Young Egypt," 1933-1952 page 66 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

None of that is related to relations between Nazi Germany and Egypt besides possibly a lone visit to the German Legation. nableezy - 17:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Would you prefer moving the stuff on YE's ideology to Arab fascism?

And if we are talking about the Arab world, do we mean the governments or Arab society? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, would you prefer a section called "Arab reaction to Nazism"? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Or how about renaming the article to "Relationship between the Nazi Germany and the Arab World"? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Relations between the Allies and the Arab world

Relations between France and the Arab world

Relations between the United Kingdom and the Arab world

Relations between Italy and the Arab world

Relations between the Axis and the Arab world Intriguing!Dan Murphy (talk) 02:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC) And not for nothing, but this version from 2012 is far closer to fair and reasonable and accurate than whatever this is now [1].Dan Murphy (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

What in the article now do you think is not accurate? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

As a matter of emphasis? Of scholarship? Of an actual interest in the complex interplay of interests, conflict, colonialism in the early to mid-20th century? An article written from a perspective beyond saying "Nazi Nazi Nazi" in the face of Palestinian, and secondarily Arab national movements? The article in its entirety is inaccurate. So it goes, so it goes.Dan Murphy (talk) 02:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

As a matter of emphasis? Sure, I agree we need to add more on Syria (which isn't mentioned yet).

Scholarship? Gershoni, Wien, Nicosia, Wild, Nordbruch, Wildangel and Herf are the scholars on the topic. Would you rather we cite more Bernard Lewis and Matthias Kuntzel?

Which parts in the article do you have in mind for changing? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)