Talk:Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen Thisted

Article name

Do any sources actually call this the 'Action of 25 January 2012'? Google doesn't identify any and I really don't see anyone searching for this name - the 'Action of Date' construction is rather old-fashioned and not very appropriate for use on current events. Something like 'United States raid on Somalia (2012)' would be preferable. Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Except that there have already been other US raids in somalia this year, i wanted to name it Raid on (insert town name here), but at the time of creation the exact location of the raid wasnt known publicly.XavierGreen (talk) 17:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

this latest page move needs to be reverted and a discussion needs to take place, January 2012 United States Navy SEAL Somali raid would seam to be a more descriptive title. Mtking ^(edits) 01:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I also don't understand why this has been moved to what's clearly not the correct date ('Action of 12 January 2012'). Nick-D (talk) 01:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the date, the user that origonally moved it failed to create a disambiguation page which caused numerous redlinks including one on this article's ITN nomination. The article title that he moved it to was also rather atrocious looking, and to top it off he didn't discuss the move here.XavierGreen (talk) 01:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

We need a better name than this. There's an AN post about it that's probably unnecessary... if there're technical considerations it needs to be dealt with at requested moves, however... I think we should wait for the time being, until the dust has settled and the media settles on a common descriptor. The current name just makes no sense though... however before we bounce it around a dozen other names... let's get it right. Shadowjams (talk) 07:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

As for the initial suggestion, "raid on Somalia" is even worse than the current name. Let's just be patient... wait for a common description to emerge. If that doesn't happen clearly, we can figure out some version then. But I'm quite confident that a hostage rescue from a criminal group should not be entitled a "raid" on a sovereign nation. Shadowjams (talk) 07:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I've move protected the article so that no editors end up getting blocked for move warring. Whilst the current title may not be ideal, there are plenty of "Action of (date)" articles on Wikipedia, so there is an established precedent for the title. As mentioned above, if an editor wants to propose a better title, WP:RM is available for that. Mjroots (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you give us an example please? I can't think of the circumstances that would lead to such a name making sense. HiLo48 (talk) 09:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Special:AllPages/Action_of shows a wide variety of examples. However, this naming pattern is mostly something used for naval engagements - I've skimmed the first hundred or so non-redirects in that list, and all are naval battles, with the exception of one air battle and this article. Both are something I've not previously seen widely used outside Wikipedia - we may be extending the precedent too far, here... Shimgray | talk | 12:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone here is aware, but the appalling name of this article has become the appalling name of a nomination at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates. It's spreading! Given the global audience of that page it's even less obvious what it's about. Can we fix this nonsense some time soon please? HiLo48 (talk) 04:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, lets do that. I propose moving this article to Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen, which is what this is ultimately about. It seems likely to be the most likely term readers use to search for this topic. I will post a notification at WT:MILHIST. Nick-D (talk) 05:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that name works, although I would prefer a slightly more generic name... maybe Rescue of pirate hostages (January 2012) or Rescue of Somali pirate hostages, or perhaps something down those lines. While all news reports report them as "Somali pirates", but in this case it doesn't seem to be an at seas capture. The name specific title is fine, but I just worry it would be hard to generalize to other incidents of this nature where there are too many people to list by name. Also I don't know if it's ideal for the captures to be forever associated with that named title... although I suppose with an event of this magnitude it's inevitable. I'm curious for ideas though. I'd be fine with a name change as Nick suggests particularly because the article's going to get its largest views in the coming days, so any improvement in the name is a plus. Shadowjams (talk) 06:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be at least one incident per month where armed forces rescue people from pirates at the moment (though this generally takes place at sea), so using the names helps prevent confusion. I'm happy with just about any option that makes things more specific though. Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I stumbled upon this article earlier and tried to rename it to 2012 United States Navy rescue operation in Somalia before realizing that it had been locked or debated. I'm exceedingly surprised that the current title survived a trip to WP:AN, because we do have a naming convention which unequivocally outlines how to handle the situation: WP:NCE. The current title also runs afoul of American date formatting, which makes it even all the stranger.   — C M B J   11:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

There's clear consensus that the article's current title is terrible, but because we haven't yet determined which non-terrible title to use, it's been move-protected? We can't agree to use one of the reasonable suggestions for the time being (with the option to change it later)? —David Levy 13:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWSPAPER & WP:EVENT

Where is the indication of lasting significance ? Mtking ^(edits) 09:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

You're in the wrong place. Start an articles for deletion if you think it should be deleted. Shadowjams (talk) 09:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Given the vast number of books written on special forces raids, it's safe to assume that this will be of lasting notability. Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Is not that a WP:CRYSTALBALL argument, besides if books are written is it not likely that they will be written by those who took part and not therefor be interdependent. Mtking ^(edits) 19:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is cystal ball gazing to some degree. However, it really is a certainty that this will receive ample coverage from independent authors in the vast and ever expanding literature on American special forces units. I'd vote 'keep' in an AfD on that basis, but other editors might well take a different view. Nick-D (talk) 07:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

[move template disabled]

Action of 25 January 2012 → Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen
There's clear consensus that the article's current title is unsuitable. It provides almost no indication of the event's nature and could refer to any of countless occurrences. For this reason (and because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy), I hope that this move can be fast-tracked (with the understanding that the matter can be revisited).
Of the titles suggested above, Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen strikes me as the best. It's reasonably succinct, it contains elements for which readers are likely to search, and it distinguishes the operation from similar events without the use of tacked-on disambiguation terms (which are comparatively inelegant and less meaningful to readers).
The important thing, of course, is to eliminate the "Action of 25 January 2012" title as soon as possible (after which we can consider further renaming, reflecting whatever trends emerge). —David Levy 14:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to that. Though i find it amazing that so many editors are willing to bicker and argue over a name, yet virtually none of them have taken any effort at all to expand the actual article. XavierGreen (talk) 17:19, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

If you're interested in improving an article about the rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen, you're not likely to go about it by looking for an article called Action of 25 January 2012. HiLo48 (talk) 18:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

As you previously were the only editor to oppose a move from Action of 25 January 2012, I explained the situation to Mjroots (the administrator who applied the move protection), who has consented to the article's unprotection and move.

This is an interim measure reflecting the clear consensus against the original title and rough consensus for Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen (the title that's received the most support so far). Discussion of other possible titles certainly can continue (and anyone is welcome to initiate a new WP:RM listing). —David Levy 18:15, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I stated when this discussion first started that i would support a move if the title seemed feasible, the only other possible title that would be better than Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Poul Hagen would be Raid on (insert town name here) or some other title sourced by a secondary source. Since neither of those two seem to feasible in the near term, i think the title used now fits very well and i am glad you proposed it.XavierGreen (talk) 18:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

For the record, the title was originally proposed by Nick-D in the #Article name thread (and has received partial support from Shadowjams and full support from you and me). —David Levy 18:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Well then much thanks to Nick-D for proposing it.XavierGreen (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2012 (UTC)