Talk:Reynhard Sinaga

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:29, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

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• ... that Reynhard Sinaga, who was convicted of 159 sex offences, including 136 rapes of young men committed in Manchester, England, between 2015 and 2017, is described as the most prolific rapist in British legal history? Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/06/reynhard-sinaga-evil-sexual-predator-spent-years-targeting-vulnerable, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50987823
  • ALT1:... that Reynhard Sinaga, who was convicted of 136 rapes of young men in Manchester, England, between 2015 and 2017, drugged, raped his victims while they were unconscious, and recorded his attacks with a mobile phone? Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/reynhard-sinaga-rapist-jail-prison-sentence-manchester-sex-attack-a9272126.html, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50987823
  • ALT2:... that Reynhard Sinaga, who was convicted of 159 sex offences, including 136 rapes of young men committed in Manchester, England, between 2015 and 2017, was a PhD student? Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/06/reynhard-sinaga-evil-sexual-predator-spent-years-targeting-vulnerable, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50987823, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/06/reynhard-sinaga-peter-pan-phd-student-who-raped-scores-of-men
  • ALT3:... that Reynhard Sinaga, who is described as the most prolific rapist in British legal history, was reported to the police by his last victim who regained consciousness during the rape? Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/reynhard-sinaga-rapist-jail-prison-sentence-manchester-sex-attack-a9272126.html, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50987823, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/06/manchester-based-student-reynhard-sinaga-named-britains-worst/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sentausa (talk • contribs) 14:17, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Created by Berrocca addict (talk) and Philip Cross (talk). Nominated by Sentausa (talk) at 16:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC).

• Please tone down the hook. You can say he's a convicted rapist without going into so much detail. You could write a hook comparing his later deeds with his early background, or about how he was finally caught. As his victims are still alive, striking ALT1 for possibly distressing them and their families. Yoninah (talk) 23:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

• I just added 2 alternative hooks. Honestly I don't know how to tone down the hook as everything in the article is quite distressing even for me. sentausa (talk) 14:20, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps something about the 500% increase (the biggest rise in the charity's history) in calls to the hotline for the sexual abuse survivor charity after his sentencing? Cowlibob (talk) 16:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

• Here's another idea. Less sensational, and also less explicit, so interested readers can click through to find out more about what he did:
• ALT4:... that St Chrysostom's Church provided serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga with a character reference for his trial?
• ALT5:... that serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga received a character reference from St Chrysostom's Church for his trial? Yoninah (talk) 22:10, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

• Let's not reassociate the poor congregation with this as it was mentioned to have distanced itself from the subject.
• ALT6:... that the serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga was an active member of a church?Source: http://www.churchnewsireland.org/news/irish-uk-news/church-distances-itself-from-man-described-as-britains-most-prolific-rapist/, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/12/reynhard-sinaga-mother-britains-prolific-rapist-says-still-baby/ sentausa (talk) 12:49, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• @Sentausa: thank you, but I don't see the "active member" part in the sources. The Church of Ireland source says he worshipped at a church "occasionally", while the Telegraph source talks about him attending church as a child. Yoninah (talk) 13:22, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• Ah, it's true. Another source contradicted ALT6 and I just corrected the article. sentausa (talk) 13:42, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• ALT7: ... that after some of his assaults, the serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga boasted about his actions on the social media? Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/06/reynhard-sinaga-serial-rapist-posed-good-samaritan-lure-men, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/06/reynhard-sinaga-peter-pan-phd-student-who-raped-scores-of-men sentausa (talk) 13:53, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• @Sentausa: I guess ALT7 would be okay. But I'd like to ask you one more time to consider a version of ALT4, not mentioning the name of the church:
• ALT4a: ... that a congregation of the Church of England provided serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga with a character reference for his trial? Yoninah (talk) 13:07, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Fine for me. sentausa (talk) 10:18, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

• Full review needed now that hooks seem set. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:25, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
• New enough, long enough, neutral, well-cited, interesting hook. Good to go. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 04:56, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

• This nomination was removed from prep by Gatoclass with the following edit summary: pulled Reynhard Sinaga - source does not support hook. I have struck ALT4a, the hook that was pulled. Pinging sentausa, Yoninah, and Nice4What. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:17, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: What about ALT7 instead? sentausa (talk) 15:34, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

• sentausa, the problem I have with ALT7 is the implication that he boasted about the rapes and assaults (which were "his actions") on social media, when the actual posts repeated in the newspaper stories are more oblique than that, making it sound like seductions rather than assaults. You might want to go with him keeping evidence of his crimes on his mobile phones, which is how he was convicted, or the objects he'd taken from his victims as "trophies". BlueMoonset (talk) 18:49, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: Like these? sentausa (talk) 16:36, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

• ALT8:... that on the mobile phones of the serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga, police found 3.29 terabytes of videos of his assaults? Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/06/reynhard-sinaga-jailed-life-drugging-raping-men-manchester, https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/06/uk/reynhard-sinaga-rapist-life-sentence-scli-gbr-intl/index.html
• ALT9: ... that police were able to trace many victims of the serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga using clues found in the items like phones and ID cards that he stole from them? Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50987823

• sentausa, these might work. For ALT8, I'd suggest "over three terabytes" rather than "3.29 TB" (or at least replacing "TB"), and for ALT9 I'd suggest "were able to" rather than "could". I'd like to ask Yoninah to respond to the tenor and interest of the two new hooks, given previous hook involvement. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:58, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

• BlueMoonset, done. sentausa (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

• ALT8 is verified by the source, though it only mentions one phone. I have edited the article accordingly, taking BlueMoonset's suggestion about the wording, and am listing here an alt:
• ALT8a: ... that on the mobile phone of the serial rapist Reynhard Sinaga, police found more than 3 terabytes of videos of his assaults?
• I can't find ALT9 in the article. I think ALT8a is fine, though. Hook ref verified and cited inline. ALT8a good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:49, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Please be encyclopedic

This article is attracting a lot of attention from new editors. I propose to let it run for a bit and make corrective edits in a few hours.''Paul, in Saudi'' (talk) 14:09, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:LGBT people from Indonesia

Hi. I see that he was placed into the Category:LGBT people from Indonesia, but nothing in the article actually cites his sexuality. He did target gay men, but does that itself mean he is gay too? Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Lugnuts, "Gay men" was also added; I agree with you. --CoryGlee (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Inter&anthro has found more info from one of the news refs and cited it. Nice work. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:27, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Lugnuts. Inter&anthro, oh yes, he is, nice work. :) --CoryGlee (talk) 18:30, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

For the record I didn't see this discussion prior to when I edited the page nor was I searching specifically for information that Sinaga was gay, I simply came across it while reading on of the references and added it to the article (aka I didn't mean to come across as promoting some agenda by adding it). Nonetheless thank you for your kind words Lugnuts and CoryGlee. Inter&anthro (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

No problem, and nice work in sourcing that part. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 20:49, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Free Use Photo?

I'm not familiar with the copyright rules in Britain. Is the photo from CPS free-use? --JimmyStardust (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Answering myself: the CPS uses the Open Government Licence, so yes. --JimmyStardust (talk) 08:52, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Factory nightclub?

How many are there in Manchester? I thought only the one associated with Factory Records, on the corner of Princess Street and Charles Street. Or am I thinking of The Haçienda? He also frequented Fifth Avenue, apparently (but not the one in Manhattan). I guess the problem is that there is no separate article for the nightclub and the connection with the record label is not sufficiently well established. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:02, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

There's only one that I know of. The Haçienda closed in 2009, with the Factory nightclub opening the following year. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:01, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Number of life sentences

This is kind of a geeky point that we probably don't need any detail about, but if we're going to mention it, it would be good to get it right. According to many sources, Sinaga was serving 88 concurrent life sentences, with a minimum of 20 years, after the first two trials. The minimum tariff was increased to 30 years somewhere in the final two trials. I find it hard to believe the number of life sentences was not also increased. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 15:44, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that does seem odd. Perhaps the lead section should make this clearer. The phrase "handed over" looked a bit ambiguous. It is a bit "geeky", to the extent that 88 concurrent life sentences is just the same as 89 concurrent life sentences. It's the minimum term that really matters? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:49, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Visit to Paris

I'm not sure if this visit is important enough to mention in the first place because it seems irrelevant to the offences. The source provided from The Telegraph doesn't mention the visit and we describe it as having happened three months after he was arrested following the last attack, which must be a mistake.LM2000 (talk) 04:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I am reasonably sure I added the assertion from the Telegraph source, but the detail is no longer in the article, and no other source seems to contain this information. So it has been cut. Philip Cross (talk) 08:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Phone capacity

I'm no expert, but how is it possible to store over 3 terabytes of data on one (or two) iPhones? I thought these things had a storage capacity of about 128 Gb. PhilUK (talk) 10:04, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

@PhilUK: probably through cloud storage --Sxologist (talk) 10:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Re-reading carefully, I see that it doesn't say that the 3 TB of data was stored on his phone. PhilUK (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Rendering of the name

In Indonesia every name is an undivided name that acts as a single given name, with no legal family name: https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/indonesian-culture/indonesian-culture-naming#indonesian-culture-naming "Under Indonesian naming conventions, all components[...]"

However I'm OK with having the subject called "Sinaga" since in UK sources he's called by that name, and the crimes he was prosecuted for were done in the UK. (example).

This means, though, that for the Jakarta Post I had writers referred to as a single author= flag instead of a last= and first= flag. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

There are some Indonesians who do have family names (and this man may have one, as his father is referred to with "Sinaga" as an element), but they don't have a distinction in Indonesian law. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I cited Australia's SBS to explain Indonesian convention and how, in Indonesia, he only has a single unified personal name under Indonesian law. Again, I think the article should use British practices (calling him "Sinaga") as the events took place in the UK. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest that he is notable mainly for the offences for which he was prosecuted in English law. Given that, the name used in the article should be one under which he was prosecuted? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The Crown Prosecution Service referred to him by the last element of his name, Sinaga, so I agree that the ENwiki article should continue calling him "Sinaga". The IDwiki article calls him "Reynhard" in line with the Indonesian practice. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)