Talk:Richard Strauss/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

changes

I have reverted some of the Ger/Eng changes here as discussed on the Zweig page. Also Sprach is usually translated as Thus spake by the way, I suppose because it was a contemporary attempt to make the Englsih sound contemporary with the story! :) Nevilley 16:24 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

Interesting. Thank you for the explanation. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 19:37 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

You're very welcome! Nevilley 19:46 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

Omission?

Doesn't "Death and Transfiguration" deserve recognition in an article about R. Strauss?

Sure. You could add a mention of it yourself, if you wanted - be bold in updating pages and all that. Anyway, I'll add a mention myself (no sign of Don Quixote either, I'll stick that and a couple of others in too, probably). --Camembert

Sources for 1930s period

Recognizing that this is controversial, here are the sources I am using for the writeup of the 1930s. I see no convincing evidence that Strauss EVER collaborated with the Nazis: indeed he played the game just right in order to keep his daughter-in-law Alice and her family out of the gas chambers. I'm using the big article on Richard Strauss in volume 18 of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (by Michael Kennedy); also Nicolas Slonimsky's article in the Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Music and Musicians. Here as elsewhere I don't trust most Internet sources. Antandrus

rumor

I removed the following anonymous addition to the article:

It is rumored that, explaining his decision to stay while many of his fellow German intellectuals and artists defected to America and Britain, Strauss supposedly said, "Germany had fifty-six opera houses; the United States had two."

I don't mind putting this back in if a source can be named; it's an interesting comment, but Wikipedia cannot report rumors. Strauss was nearing 70 when Hitler came to power, far too late in life to pack up his bags and leave; all his friends, all his musical life was in Germany, and besides he was contemptuous of politicians, and thought of their activities as ephemeral and easily ignored. Staying in Germany was the logical choice for him, considering his personality. Antandrus (talk) 01:42, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Four Last Songs

I believe these are in the same category as Schubert's Schwanengesang. In both cases, the composer wrote them as separate songs at different times, and they were found among the composer's unpublished papers at his death. In both cases, a publisher posthumously collated them into a set, and gave it a title which, by definition, was never known to the composer. Is this something that needs to be pointed out in the article? or is it something that is considered more or less irrelevant given the fame of the set as we know it today (regardless of who may have done the collating and who may have supplied the title)? JackofOz 07:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

According to the New Grove he finished them all between May and September 1948, and they were the main compositional effort of his last years (he was also sketching an opera during 1948 which he never finished). I'm not aware of the songs being put together as a set after his death; I always thought (not necessarily correctly) that he intended the four as a set, rather like the last four of Brahms. (Looks like we need an article on the Four Last Songs ... and, good God, only three non-operatic pieces by Strauss currently have articles ... oh my) Antandrus (talk) 14:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Antandrus is correct, Jackof Oz isn't. Sorry! Dunnhaupt 21:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry it's taken me a whole to get back here. I only asked this because in my copy of Grove V (published 1954, Vols I-IX; republished 1961 with a Supplementary Volume X; reprinted 1966), they're listed as follows:

• Im Abendrot for high voice (Joseph von Eichendorff) (1948)
• Drei Gesange for high voice (Hermann Hesse) (1948)
  • 1. Frühling
  • 2. Vor dem Schlafengehen
  • 3. September.

The Supplementary Volume X corrects this to:

• Vier Letzte Lieder for high voice
  • 1. Frühling (Hesse)
  • 2. Vor dem Schlafengehen (Hesse)
  • 3. September (Hesse)
  • 4. Im Abendrot (Eichendorff).

Thus, it seems that the title "4 Last Songs" came about at some time after 1954, and before 1961, as did the collection of a set of 3 songs and an unrelated song into a set of 4. This was somewhere between 5 and 12 years after Strauss's death. JackofOz 05:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Michael Kennedy (an authority on Strauss), in his chapter "Richard Strauss: Vier letze Lieder (Four Last Songs)" in Song on Record: 1. Lieder (edited by Alan Blyth, published by Cambridge University Press in 1986), suggests that Strauss saw the four songs as a set. He composed "Im Abendrot" first and then realised that a song such as this for solo voice and large orchestra needed to be part of a group. A book of poems by Hermann Hesse had been sent to him, and he liked them and chose four to put to music: "Frühling", "September" and "Beim Schlafengehen", which we know about, plus "Nacht", which he started but did not complete. The four songs were performed as a unit at their first performance in 1950, in the order "Beim Schlafengehen", "September", "Frühling", "Im Abendrot": Strauss had left no indication of an order in which the songs were to be performed, and the usual order we now hear them in ("Früling", "September", "Beim Schlafengehen", "Im Abendrot") is the order in which they were published by Ernest Roth, who also (I believe) gave them the title by which the world has come to know them, although there is evidence that Strauss saw them as his musical farewell (and certainly the choice of words and the settings are in keeping with that). Ondewelle (talk) 14:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Nazis

If he was "absolved of any Nazi ties" in court, as the article states, then why spend fully half of the entire article on the Nazis? He was a composer who protected and sheltered his Jewish daughter-in-law and her child in his home. Enough already! Let's have more about his music and less political crap. All that stuff happened 65 or 70 years ago! Dunnhaupt 21:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree!
70.69.50.77 03:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Recordings

There was clearly a need to write about Richard Strauss' numerous recordings. This is, admittedly, just a beginning because the evidence indicates that Strauss made many recordings and, fortunately, many of them have been issued on CD. There will undoubtedly continue to be more releases. One would hope that the complete 1944 recordings with the Vienna Philharmonic would be issued on CD, if they haven't already; they were released by Vanguard some years ago and took about five LPs. They were remastered, too, and had remarkably clear, high fidelity sound. By 1944 the Magnetopon had been greatly approved and a few stereo tapes were made with other orchestras. All of these technological breakthroughs led to the formation of the Ampex Corporation, which resulted in the use of magnetic tape and much improved fidelity in commercial recordings after World War II. Sallyrob 19:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No mention of Strauss's love of the soprano voice?

It's common knowledge among musicians (but not necessarily Wikipedia readers) that Strauss was in love with the soprano (or at least female) voice, and that he's given us some of the most exquisite music for them — in operas such as Rosenkavalier, and in his Lieder. Could we not mention this in the article?

Not only that: I am aware of two operas (Der Rosenkavalier and Ariadne auf Naxos) where a mezzo-sprano is singing a male role. TomyDuby (talk) 14:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

Richard Strauss
Richard Strauss
Background information
Birth name	Richard Strauss
Origin	Munich, Bavaria, Germany
Occupation(s)	Composer Conductor

A strong consensus has emerged against using infoboxes designed for popular contemporary artists on the pages of historic composers. I am going to leave the photo where it is but move the infobox here for comments etc. Thank you. - Kleinzach 04:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Where has this consensus emerged? What are the arguments? Thanks for a clarification! Cheers! Matthias Röder 13:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

On the Composers Project and the Opera Project, see Infoboxes_for_composers. The main argument against having them is that they are simplistic and misleading, although many of them also have factual errors, wrong nationalities, anachronisms etc. Another problem is that composers born between 1815 and 1910 are labelled Romantic (though this label has been removed here). They also duplicate information un-necessarily. --Kleinzach 23:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment! I agree with what you're saying! Away with the infoboxes, then! :-) Matthias Röder 07:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, get rid of it. --Folantin 08:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:StraussCD.jpg

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BetacommandBot 19:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Expressionism

Was Strauss an expressionist? I've heard something about that specially concerned his first operas. And after that? Why he changed? First world war? Why he changed so radically his operatic musical language? Could someone point out something about this? Thanks in advance, --Jdiazch (talk) 12:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Influence

I considered adding the following text:

The tone poems of Strauss were an early influence on Béla Bartók, who wrote a piano reduction of Ein Heldenleben and went on to compose his own symphonic poem Kossuth.

in the article, but right now the article lacks any section on the influence of Strauss and it seemed to me that having all this on Bartók alone would be inappropriate. --Atavi (talk) 15:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I have reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. You can read my detailed review on the comments page. Article is B-class, but there are obvious deficiencies in the biography:

• little personal detail between 1894 (marriage) and 1933 (beginning of Nazi complications)
• children? how many? born when? (daughter-in-law is mentioned, son is barely so)
• where did he conduct? any notable concerts or premieres?
• did he make concert appearances at the piano? (he made piano rolls)

If you have questions or comments, feel to leave them here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 18:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect quote context / Mixed up chronology

I am doing research on Don Juan and was surprised to find a quote in this article (previously referencing Don Juan) that pertains to Aus Italien, not Don Juan. I edited the page and hid that section, though it's a good quote so it would make sense for someone who's clear on the chronology to put it back. Moreover, there was also a statement that Don Juan received both cheers and boos, which is definitely wrong -- Don Juan was a near-unanimous success, a piece that firmly established Strauss's place in history for the first time!

I am referring to this quote: "I now comfort myself with the knowledge that I am on the road I want to take..."

If you search "The Lives of the Great Composers" (on Google Books) for that quote you will find that both the statement about boos and cheers, and the quote itself, apply to Aus Italien. Also, Aus Italien was earlier than Don Juan, so I removed it from the list stating "Strauss went on to write..."

Crunch483 (talk) 02:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography Addition

I added the section concerning correspondence between Strauss and Karpath because this material is available from the Austrian National Library but not generally known. I thought the provenance of the correspondence would be of value to a researcher looking for primary source material. I am a descendant of Dr. Marill. Copse1 (talk) 01:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Strictly speaking it's not bibliographical, so I wonder if it should go in a special section? Best. --Kleinzach 03:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Strauss in the current repertory

I'd like to see the article include an assessment of Strauss's place in the current standard operatic repertory. His most popular operas, headed up no doubt by Rosenkavalier, are performed frequently, while almost all the operas from the last half of his career are probably known only by professional musicologists, and have not been staged (to my knowledge) in half a century. Ishboyfay (talk) 22:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Capriccio gets some performances; I remember a performance in San Francisco in the nineties, it was done in Paris in 2004, and I think there was a performance in the UK a couple years ago. Some of the others don't get staged much. Antandrus (talk) 23:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk of 'current repertory' begs the question whose repertory, given that opera fans tend to equate the idea with the programmes of their own local opera house. (Some of us have tried to ban the expression 'standard repertory' altogether.) The List of operas by Richard Strauss has 17 works (counting the two Ariadnes as one). I'd say nine of them are performed fairly frequently. Of these I've personally seen six staged or done in concert. I'm in favour of all opera articles covering 'recent performance history' — both in Europe and America — to indicate current popularity. --Kleinzach 23:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Richard Strauss

I am doing Richard Strauss...can anyonoe give me some tips..or facts about him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by IsSaKaY! (talk • contribs) 18:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi IsSaKay! This discussion page should be kept to discussing the actual article. If you would like information on Richard Strauss, then please visit the reference desk, which is a community discussion board for asking questions like yours. However, I suspect that you are "doing" Richard Strauss as a homework assignment, in which case, you can read the article and get all the tips and facts that you need. Wikipedia editors won't do your homework for you!  :-) Maedin\^talk 18:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Richard Strauss/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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;Composers Project Assessment of Richard Strauss: 2008-11-19 This is an assessment of article Richard Strauss by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Origins/family background/studies Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? Good Early career Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Good Mature career Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? There is a large gap in personal history (no significant mention between 1894 and 1933). Who is his son? There is no clear indication of where he conducted, or if/when he performed at the piano (beyond the mention of piano rolls). List(s) of works Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. Good Critical appreciation Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Good. Musical style is discussed throughout, as is reception, especially at critical premiers. Illustrations and sound clips Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Article needs more, and more variety in, imagery. Article could use more audio, especially of Strauss as conductor or on piano-roll. References, sources and bibliography Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references, but few inline citations. Structure and compliance with WP MOS Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Article lead is short, and does not summarize main points of article. Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) Summary This article gives a fairly good overview of the man as composer. The biography is lacking in some significant personal details, as none are mentioned between 1894 and 1933. His daugher-in-law is mentioned; his son is not even named. When was he born? Was there only one child? His musical style and compositions are reasonably well covered. His conducting is less well covered; it is unclear where (with which institutions) his conducting career took place, or if (for example) he led any notable premieres (of his own work, or that of others). It is mentioned that he made piano rolls; did his career include concert appearances at the keyboard? The article would benefit from a discography of recordings by him (at the very least a selection; complete if it is short), as well as clips (if possible) of his conducting and piano rolls. Article is B-class, with room to improve. Magic♪piano 18:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 15:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)