Talk:Rima Fakih

Being misreported as being "arab"

She is not Arab. Pretty simple. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.31.229 (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. If you can supply a consensus, or even a significant number, of reliable sources supporting that view, the article can be changed to reflect those sources. Extremely simple. Fat&Happy (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

it's not an opinionl. It is a fact. Arabs are an ethnic group of peoples that the Lebonese are not a part of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_people#Identity The vast majority ot Lebonese reject being called or linked to being "arab". Simple fact. Further, there has already been a miss usa winner of Lebanese descent, making almsot everything in this wiki about this girl's erthnicity a compete lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.31.229 (talk) 00:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Multiple reliable sources describe her as Arab American Muslim. unless you can supply reliable sources which. WP:TRUTH has no place in WP--Wikireader41 (talk) 00:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Dewey defeats truman. She is not an Arab. it is a simple fact. Doesn't matter how many sources get it wrong. There is no debate about it. Why is the other Lebanese winner not called arab? Cause this debate has already been had, but for some reason the media want to make this woman an "arab" "muslim". I can find some sources calling Obama indonesian and african and probably even muslim but I don't see him called such on his wiki page?

I'm a Hayek. All Hayeks from Lebanon are Christian. The Fakihs are Muslim Shia. Most Lebanese Muslims like to be called Arabs, regardless of whether the claim is true or not. The majority of Lebanese Christians reject being called Arabs due to their pre-Arab Canaanite, Aramaean, Greek, and Armenian heritage. At the end of the Lebanese Civil War, the Saudi-sponsored Taif Agreement Constitution of Lebanon in 1989, which did not have any true Christian representation during its inception, hijacked the identity of Lebanon by declaring all Lebanese as Arabs, both Muslims and Christians alike. This is an imposed label, not a factual one at all. John.hayek (talk) 02:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John.hayek (talk • contribs) 01:12, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Shut up, Uncle Tom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.223.167.220 (talk) 21:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

we can only report what is presented by WP:RS individual editors opinion matters little here. so unless you have a sources which specifically state that she is NOT arab anmerican dont waste time here. as I said WP is not in the 'Truth' business. only reporting what is said in RS and giving it WP:DUE weight--Wikireader41 (talk) 01:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

If she does not specifically reject being an Arab, and identifies as one, there should be no discussion. The rejection of Arab identity in Lebanon is pretty much restricted to some Maronite Christians, doesn't even apply to many of the other kinds of Christians there. FunkMonk (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

FunkMonk, I don't know where you're getting your information from. But many Greek Orthodox and Melkite Greek Catholics do not call themselves Arab, and are actually the descendants of the early Greek-speaking Christians of Antioch (you know, the people who wrote the New Testament?). So please educate yourself before you speak. John.hayek (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Tsk. Just to mention one thing, ever heard of the Ghassanids? FunkMonk (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard of them. The Ghassanids (South Arabian Christian tribe from Yemen) represent about 10% of all Christian families in Lebanon, mostly in Maronite families such as El Khazen and others. You can tell a Ghassanid from a non-Ghassanid typically from the facial features and skin tone. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. The Greek Orthodox/Catholic of Northern Syria (Antioch) who now reside in Lebanon are much lighter in skin tone and look like your average Greek or Southern Italian. Those are the majority of the Greek Orthodox and Melkite Greek Catholics. John.hayek (talk) 15:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Great, so we agree that it isn't clear cut. Now let's move on. FunkMonk (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Arab does not mean muslim... i'm a christian lebanese and i consider miself arab... Stop being racist, ur treating arabs like u did with blacks on the 20'th century... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.42.211.202 (talk) 14:12 (UTC)

Who's the first what...

Cited sources say that Julie Hayek is the first Arab American Miss USA. Other cited sources say Rima Fakih is. The phrase "some consider the 1983 winner, Julie Hayek, to hold the "first Arab American" distinction, based on her Lebanese descent" is therefor an accurate representation of the sources. Wikipedia does not take polls to determine how many editors believe Hayek is considered an Arab and how many do not; we are only supposed to present what reliable sources say. The CIA Factbook was cited in an edit saying Hayek was not considered an Arab. The actual phrasing there is "many Christian Lebanese do not identify themselves as Arab but rather as descendents of the ancient Canaanites and prefer to be called Phoenicians". We do not have any sources to say that Hayek is a Christian, nor to say even if she is, that she is one of the "many". Nor do we have any reliable sources specifically disputing the claim that Hayek is the first Arab American Miss USA. Inferences based on related claims about Fakih don't count, although they have been included in the original version of the sentence. Reverting once again to the version that accurately summarizes sources, not editor opinion. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

so are we supposed to say "for unknown reasons The first Lebanese american to win the wawrd wasn't considered an arab but the second one is"? This is purely absurd. The only people who consider Lebanese arabs are people still living in parts of Lebana today. The vasy majority of Lebanese do not consider themselves as Arab. If she were actually living in Leban and born there this wouldn't be much of a contention, but she is not. She is born outside of Lebanon and should use the same standards as others, the vast majority of whcih completely reject any kind of Arab identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.31.229 (talk) 01:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

If only the reliable sources were as copious as the rhetoric... Fat&Happy (talk) 02:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The RS have been very clear that she is an Arab. Here is another one from Saudi arabia itselfArab-American beauty Fakih carves out a niche for herself--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course, any pan-arabic media will report such. It makes too good of a story. But the problem here is, I can find a ton of cites that : most lebanese outside of lebanon do not consider themelves arab at all, and that Julie is the first Arab american. These facts are all contradictory. And instead of picking a side and just calling her one, the confusion should be explained to some degree. I don't know why she can't just be called Lebanese-American. To some Lebanese, calling them Arab is a grave insult. It's not a flippant issue. I can find black rappers refering to themselves by the n-word, but i don't think i can get away with describing them as such on their wikipages66.190.31.229 (talk) 02:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

For this article, sources saying Hayek is the first Arab American are relevant; sources saying most Lebanese do not consider themselves Arab are not, unless it is said in a context of explaining why Hayek is not the first Arab American. Any other use of the sources would be synthesis. That's what the edits I've reverted consist of. Fat&Happy (talk) 03:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The dispute here is not whether Rima Fakih, a Muslim, is an Arab or not. I think the main issue is that Hayek, a Christian, is NOT an Arab. As long as you make sure not to erroneously report that, it should be fine! John.hayek (talk) 02:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John.hayek (talk • contribs) 02:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I was just going to mention that to Wikireader41. The problem is, there are RS that call Hayek the first Arab Miss USA. I didn't make that up myself, honest. I resisted editors inserting her as being the real first Arab until someone actually came up with sources claiming that, which is when I inserted the neutral (though possibly weasel-worded) "some claim", pointing to those sources. So far we have nobody but editors makinf the claim Hayek is not the first Arab, so the version I added is the most accurate summary of RS views. I'd love to go back to an unconditional ID of Fakih as the first, but sources on Hayek, and how she may self-identify, have eluded me. So have specific rebuttals of the claims mentioning her. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

how about we stick to clearly identifying her as the first Muslim Arab american Miss USA. clearly julie was not muslim.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, even that is not established by RS. I'm pretty sure it's true, but like I said, details on JH are pretty sparse, as is her existing WP article. Alternatively, since the pageant can't confirm anything, we could drop the whole "first" topic, but I'm pretty sure that's a no-go. My personal preference is to cut my sentence at the comma, eliminating any mention of Hayek, but I'm guessing that would start a war with a whole new set of participants. Fat&Happy (talk) 03:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Fat&Happy, based on your logic, if I can come up with an article claiming that Alexander the Great was German, then you can use that as a source? John.hayek (talk) 02:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John.hayek (talk • contribs) 02:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not my logic. It's the way WP works. And yes, if an actual reliable source reported that, it might be included, though the difference is, unlike Hayek's Arab-ness, there are literally volumes of reliable sources saying Macedonian. (But don't tell that to the Greeks). Fat&Happy (talk) 03:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, Fat&Happy, I'm going to respond to you in the same way you responded to me. Don't tell the Hayeks they're Arabs! John.hayek (talk) 03:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

You continue to miss the point. I am not calling anybody anything. I am reporting, accurately, that The Detroit News and People magazine called Julie Hayek an Arab. Perhaps you could convince one of the publications to issue a (public) retraction. That could also be reported (though I'm not sure whether the WP rules would call for reporting both the statement and retraction, or whether they could cancel each other out to a null comment). Fat&Happy (talk) 03:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

the issue here, which you don't seem to be understanding, is you are asking for a proof of a negative. Find me an article on the web that says 5/6 is not 23423740349. You probably can't find it. The vast majority of Lebanese do not identify as "arabs", and definitely not in the united states. They are perfectly happy with just "lebanese". There is no other they like to go by. they don't go around saying "I'm a non- arab Lebanese american". Wikipedia is supposed to be encyclopedic. Calling her "arab" is something an eclypedia would never do. I even looked up half a dozen famous Lebanese in Britianica, none of which were called "arab". 66.190.31.229 (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess, here's a solution that won't offend me or any Hayek out there. Do NOT mention anything related to first or second Arab-American about Rima, that way you avoid mentioning anything in regards to Julie. Please, you don't understand how offensive it is for me and all my ancestors, and what they had to go through for 1,400 years since Islam conquered the Levant. Please! John.hayek (talk) 03:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Neither of them should be called Arab unless they call themselves such. Anyone got a quote from either saying such? I was reading on a lebanese american information site that only about 5% of lebanese in the USA consider themselvess arab, most of the rest Syriac or phoenician.66.190.31.229 (talk) 03:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Is this close enough:

Fakih also can help counteract stereotypes of women in the Middle East, Hamad and Fakih's family members say.
"This will show the good part of Arab Americans," said Fakih's brother Rabih Fakih, 37. "A lot of people think this area of the world is only about people being covered."

From "Miss Michigan shows Arabs' diversity"

Fat&Happy (talk) 04:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Blah blah blah, enough of this politicization nonsense. If reliable sources call her Arab, we can refer to her as Arab. If reliable sources say she doesn't like being called Arab, then we can say that too. However, there's no evidence that she doesn't consider herself Arab, and I have no doubt that whatever garbage site gave you a figure of 5% is both unreliable and inaccurate. I doubt that even 95% of Christian Lebanese Americans take issue with the "Arab" label. ← George ^talk 04:12, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

You wanna explain why Albert Einstein isn't described as German/Swiss in his wikipage, then?66.190.31.229 (talk) 04:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

He is. ← George ^talk 04:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Meh. Not quite. But that's not important Anyway http://www.lgic.org/en/lebanese_americans.php#la1 90% of american Lebanese are not Arab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.31.229 (talk) 05:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

George, all we needed is another ignorant fool like you to spue his ignorance and speculation on the rest of the population. I suggest you go educate yourself before commenting and expressing your ignorant opinion. John.hayek (talk) 04:24, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Watch the incivility, or you're likely to get banned. ← George ^talk 04:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I will watch the civility, however, I suggest that you also abide by the rules and do not make speculative comments that have no basis in any truth. Please, keep the discussion based on facts, not speculation. John.hayek (talk) 04:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree; facts are good. Now you find me the reliable source that says that Rima Fakih does not consider herself an Arab, and I'll gladly add the fact myself. Thanks. ← George ^talk 04:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

George, it's obvious you haven't read any of my previous comments. I am not advocating that we shouldn't refer to Rima as Arab-American. A reference to Julie Hayek was made that she was the first Arab-American to win Miss USA, and I wanted to correct the record that the Christians of Lebanon (Hayeks included) do not call themselves Arabs. That's it. I know that there are others here who might be arguing that both Rima and Julie are not Arabs, which I also believe is true, but I'm not arguing about that. Now, that someone has fixed the mistake, and the Julie Hayek reference is removed, I'm OK with it. John.hayek (talk) 04:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, well, shock and surprise – that lasted all of 21 minutes. I reverted, but this is getting tiresome. Fat&Happy (talk) 05:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that this just isn't true. There are plenty of Christian Lebanese who consider themselves Arab, and you can't classify every member of a family with thousands of members into one pile arbitrarily, based on your own views. But I'm glad you're satisfied now that the statement has been removed. ← George ^talk 04:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear cut and some Chrisian Lebanese do identify as Arabs. If it turns out Hayek does (or that she doesn't), the opinions of editors don't matter at all. FunkMonk (talk) 04:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. ← George ^talk 04:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

John, I've read your comments. You say "Please, keep the discussion based on facts, not speculation." and follow it up with a sweeping, unsourced statement about an entire community of individuals, "the Christians of Lebanon (Hayeks included) do not call themselves Arabs". Ironic, no ? I see that you are a new editor. Please help to keep discussions based on reliable sources, not on editor's views about the real world which, as FunkMonk says, don't matter in the slightest. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Wait a second, I was kind enough to refer to a highly reliable source (CIA Factbook) to show that most Lebanese Christians do not identify as Arabs, and then you have the guts to make the statement you just made? Wow, the chutzpah of some people! John.hayek (talk) 17:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I simply placed "second lebanese" together with "first arab", a simple yet sophisticated way of solving the arab/non arab thing. The entire point is the readr should not assume that lebanese = arab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.31.229 (talk) 05:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Julie Hayek. I can not find a source that states that she is of Lebanese ancestry that predates Wikipedia saying so (all the current sources just copy Wikipedia). The claim itself was added to Hayek's page in June 2009 by an anon user. So this discussion may be moot. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 22:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Her last name would indicate it, but that isn't enough. FunkMonk (talk) 23:37, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Checking out only the first page of the 1930 US census, most "Hayeks" are from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Bohemia, and Austria, although there are two who are from the Syrian Arab Republic (Lebanese Christians). Checking out page 2, it looks much the same. So, the name isn't a clear indicator. I think it would be very amusing (though not in a good way) if, once again, the mainstream media is reporting something incorrect just because a single anon editor once added it to Wikipedia. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 23:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's exactly what happened. According to the just-updated Washington Post: Contrary to the widespread reports that Miss USA 1983, Julie Hayek, was of Arab descent on her father's side, Hayek said in an e-mail that her father grew up in Ohio and is half Czech and half German. So this discussion really was moot. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 00:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice. Maybe the confusion also stemmed from the fact that she performed for the US marines in Lebanon during the Lebanese civil war. FunkMonk (talk) 06:12, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Well that's an interesting twist. I'm sure some lessons can be gleaned from from this. This bugs me, however, because it's back to square one with the presentation of "lebanese" as arabs, when that vast majority or not arabs, many of which resent being called such. Anyone fund a link where she says herself she is "arab"?66.190.31.229 (talk) 07:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

We're hardly back to square one, as pretty much all Lebanese Muslims identify as Arab. What we have to go by is that the media reports her as such, and that she doesn't deny it. FunkMonk (talk) 07:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

LOL. I have yet to meet a Lebanese American who considers themself arab. Most would knock your teeth out for calling them such. You really shouldn't comment on things you obviously know absolutely nothing about66.190.31.229 (talk) 07:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Take it easy. Most Leb Americans are Christians, so that might explain it. But that's irrelevant, since Fakih is Shia. FunkMonk (talk) 07:41, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Best not to feed the troll. ← George ^talk 07:47, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe personal attacks are tolerated on wikipedia.66.190.31.229 (talk) 08:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

A Google New Archive search comes up with no result for '"Julie Hayek" lebanon' [1] or '"Julie Hayek" arab' [2] apart from references to the USO tour she did with Bob Hope. I think we can assume with some confidence that if she was either of those the news media would have picked it up at the time. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 12:01, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

It was shown a few comments up that she wasnt Lebanese. FunkMonk (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Rima Fakih is not the first lebanese to win miss usa, Julie Hayek a christian lebanese won miss usa in 1983. This means that Rima Fakih is not the first lebanese or arab to win miss usa, but the first muslim to win this title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.42.211.202 (talk) 14:07 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I don't know how her name is pronounced. Someone needs to add a guide. NorthernThunder (talk) 21:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

My first take, somewhat borne out by what I've heard on TV, would be close to:

• REE-muh (rhymes with the acronym FEMA)
• fah-KEE (fa as in father, KEY like you use to open a lock)

but I have no experience in translating to IPA, and don't know what a reliable source for pronunciation is anyway.

Mah rather than muh, and less length on kih. FunkMonk (talk) 14:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

It's pronounced: REE-ma FUQ-eeh (h is pronounced at the end) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John.hayek (talk • contribs) 16:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Related discussion at "Lebanese American"

Those who participated in the above discussions may want to comment on a related discussion I started at Talk:Lebanese American#Is this a proper member of category "American people of Arab descent"? Fat&Happy (talk) 20:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Description as Lebanese American in lead

Being Lebanese and American is directly related to her notability. She has lived in the US for 7 years and she lived in Lebanon for 17 years. Need I say more?--TM 21:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Her notability is based on the fact that she is Miss USA 2010. She would have an article here based on that fact alone, whether she was Native American, prototypical beauty queen Blond American, or one-eyed-one-horned-purple-American. The fact that she is Lebanese, Arab, Muslim and an immigrant are interesting side notes, duly mentioned later in the article. They are not the reason she is notable, nor is there any particular reason to associate one of these factors with her notability to a greater extent than the others. The alternative to following WP guidelines and leaving ethnicity, religion and original nationality to later in the article would be a rather unwieldy opening sentence "Rima Fakih (born October 2, 1986) is a Muslim, Arab, Lebanese American immigrant beauty pageant titleholder and winner of Miss USA 2010."

(By the way, by my subtraction she lived in Lebanon for 7 years and the United States for 17 years, not the reverse as you state.) Fat&Happy (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

You are correct, I misremembered the facts regarding her life. How about calling her a Lebanese-American instead of just American? I really think it is important to include both of her citizenships in the open.--TM 22:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

She's American now, hence winning Miss USA. And I just went back to review the cites used for her "firsts" (which took longer than it should have since one had aged off already and needed to be replaced); overall, they mention her birth in Lebanon (as do we in the article), but refer to her as "Arab American" rather than "Lebanese American". Currently, the first paragraph of the "Miss USA 2010" section refers to her as "Lebanese American", "Arab American", "Muslim", and "immigrant" in that sequence. To me, that seems sufficient, and in compliance with guidelines – let's see what others have to say. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed a specific phrasing in your post which could be relevant here: "both of her citizenships". If, in fact, it can be established with reliable sources that she holds dual citizenship (or continues to hold Lebanese citizenship but not U.S. citizenship), I would change my position on the opening. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder if we would need a reliable source that says she's a dual citizen. The only way she would not be a dual citizen, as far as I know, is if she had renounced her Lebanese citizenship when she came to the US. That would be quite unusual... it's more likely that she is a dual citizen than it is that she only holds one citizenship, so I would lean towards considering her a dual citizen by default, unless sources report that she rejected either of her citizenships. ← George ^talk 00:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Pure primary source here, but it would seem to indicate the need for some sort of secondary source:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

From Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

But my understanding is, this doesn't reflect Lebanon's law; they recognize dual citizenship, so the status is still open to interpretation – by a reliable secondary source... Fat&Happy (talk) 00:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

All of which assumes, of course, that she is a naturalized citizen; otherwise, the description should read "...is a Lebanese beauty queen..." Fat&Happy (talk) 00:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The Miss Michigan contest requires that all entrants be U.S. Citizens.[3] According to the U.S. State Department, "...a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another."[4] So the only way Fakih would could win Miss USA and not be a dual citizen would be if she had renounced her Lebanese citizenship, which isn't a common (or particularly easy) process.[5] Again, we couldn't say for sure one way or another, but her default status is likely a dual citizen. ← George ^talk 04:04, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Reflecting, it seems that overall the balance tilts in favor of "American" in the opening paragraph. She is notable because she was selected as Miss USA. In order to be selected Miss USA, she is required to be an American (U.S. citizen). In order to become a U.S. citizen, she had to renounce allegiance to Lebanon, regardless of whether or not she performed the further formality of paying the Lebanese government to renounce citizenship. She gained notability as an American, an a venue only available to Americans. Ksenia Makarova is an U.S. citizen, but she chose to compete in the 2010 Olympics for her native Russia. Her notability is based on something attributable to being Russian. The Miss Universe pageant also has a Miss Lebanon representative. Fakih may have been eligible to compete through that route; unlike Makarova, Fakih chose to compete as an American, not as a representative of her country of birth. For opening paragraph purposes, she is an "American beauty pageant titleholder".

All that aside, however, though not the reason for her notability, her ethnicity and religion have certainly been the subject of extended comment; I have made an attempt at compromise on this issue by adding a second paragraph to the lead and noting her Lebanese birth and religion as "firsts", along with the pre-existing comment about being the first Miss Michigan to win in 17 years, which probably didn't belong in the opening paragraph either. Tweaks or suggestions are solicited and welcome (but not promised to be concurred in... :) )Fat&Happy (talk) 17:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

So, two things. While you or I may read that pledge as a renunciation of foreign citizenship, it has no legal power and doesn't actually erase foreign citizenship. Not just from the perspective of the Lebanese government, but also from the perspective of the U.S. government. It's the same as if a Catholic man ran into the street and shouted "I worship the devil!" - he would still be Catholic until he left the church or was excommunicated. And while I generally agree that she is most notable for being Miss USA 2010, she was also a contestant in Miss Lebanon Emigrant in 2008.[6] Miss Lebanon Emigrant is a pageant specifically for Lebanese citizens living abroad, and while the Daily Star article quotes her sister as saying that she won that contest in 2008, other sources say she was second runner-up.[7] ← George ^talk 20:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, clearly she did not rise full-grown from the sea, springing from her shell to the stage to accept the Miss USA crown; she obviously did other things in her life. How many WP articles do we have about Miss Lebanon Emigrant winners, let alone 2nd runners-up? But on that and other topics, I actually was thinking about opening a new section, so I will, below: Fat&Happy (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm actually pretty surprised there isn't an article on at least the Miss Lebanon Emigrant competition itself. Though information on it is probably pretty hard to come by in English. ← George ^talk 06:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

LOL, tell me about it. Wait'll you see the "best" refs I could turn up for her placement in that competition. Fat&Happy (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Prior title(s) and controversy

There has been coverage in the media about two topics which may or may not be worthwhile mentioning in the article:

• In 2008, Fakih was apparently named Miss Lebanon Emigrant – Michigan. Some details can be found in "Local student to represent Michigan in Miss Lebanon Emigrant contest", and Google turns up a couple of references to her finishing 3rd in the follow-up contest in Lebanon.
• There are also a few iterations of criticisms from both U.S. conservatives (ranging from accusations of pro-Muslim "affirmative action" in recent beauty contests to claims she is a Hezbollah spy; I belive Pipes, Malkin and others were involved, but I might be remembering wrong) and from conservative Muslim sources (denouncing her immodesty).

Is there a feeling that either of these topics should be included, or is the first non-notable or the second recentism and undue weight? Fat&Happy (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC) →

The first should almost definitely be in there. If Fakih had only won Miss Lebanon Emigrant (or placed third), she may not have been notable enough to warrant an article. However, since her notability is established by winning Miss USA, details from her background should be included even if they aren't notable in and of themselves (in the same way that any other detail from her life, like where she was born or where she grew up, are included, even though they aren't notable outside of her winning Miss USA).

The second might make sense to be included, but it has to be carefully weighed as to not violate WP:UNDUE or WP:RECENT, and especially WP:BLP. We also need to be careful that the information being discussed is about Fakih herself, and not about more general pro- or anti-Muslim biases. For instance, some of the information (like general commentary that Americans are swayed by "affirmative action" that only cites Fakih as one example of such swaying) may be more appropriate in the articles on the commentators who made the comments (i.e., the section in Daniel Pipes article titled Views on Islam and the Middle East), or in articles on things like Islam in the United States, or in the Miss USA article itself. ← George ^talk 06:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Muslim?

"# If the work requires the woman to leave her home, she must maintain her 'modesty'." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam#Employment

Look at this, how can she be Muslim with no modesty and pole dancing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.166.144 (talk) 00:04, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

She is Muslim because reliable sources have widely reported her as being Muslim. ← George ^talk 00:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, George. Also, Many Muslims do not strictly follow all of the tenets of their religion, just like every other religion. This does not make them "not" Muslim (or Christian or Jewish or Baha'i).--TM 00:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

She said she considers herself both Catholic and Muslim. 6th paragraph --74.102.143.50 (talk) 07:49, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

vast majority of the sources identify her as a muslim.[8] no RS say that she is a non practicing muslim. thats a value judgement which has no place on WP. till she is declared apostate and reported as such by RS she is a muslim and needs to be identified as such.--Wikireader41 (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

First immigrant - just following up from my edit summary.

Just to confirm I removed "and the first immigrant" because it is clearly incorrect. Marite Ozers (Miss USA 1963) was born in Latvia and Maria Remenyi was born in Denmark, grew up in Hungary and escaped to the US during the Hungarian revolt. Ozers' article isn't referenced (although I can do that when I have time) but Remenyi's is fully cited. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 13:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Yep. See also Laura Harring, 1985. Fat&Happy (talk) 15:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Phxdown, 22 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

I'm pretty sure she isn't dating Doug Reinhardt. Reinhardt has denied this. http://www.hollywoodlife.com/2010/05/20/doug-reinhardt-not-dating-miss-usa-single-hollywoodlife/ Phxdown (talk) 02:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The original source was weak – "a source told us". Probably shouldn't have let it stay in the first place, but with a specific quoted denial from one of the principals, it has to go until better confirmations come along. Fat&Happy (talk) 03:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Article structure

I've moved the controversy stuff because I think its more directly related to Miss USA and belongs in that section. Having done that, and looking at the article, part of me thinks the "personal life" section should go before "pageants". Opinions? PageantUpdater talk • contribs 03:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree. (It was sort of a toss-up whether to put it in Miss USA or personal; I opted not too lengthen the Miss USA section too much, but agree it probably should be there. Agree on your sequence suggestion too.) Fat&Happy (talk) 04:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and in regards to the sentence George was editing, I know that not long after she won Miss Michigan USA I read somewhere that her family moved away from New York because of anti-Arab sentiment. Frustratingly, I can't find the article. I'm trying to use Google to narrow down dates but all the "Rima won Miss USA" articles have got in anyway. Am still huntin PageantUpdater talk • contribs 03:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure which sentence of George's you mean; as far as the 9/11 tie-in, these articles don't explicitly say that's why they moved, but they (especially the first one) touch on the topic of anti-Arab feeling in New York.

• AlHajal, Khalil (July 26, 2008), "Local student to represent Michigan in Miss Lebanon Emigrant contest", The Arab American News, Dearborn, Michigan: ProQuest, retrieved May 21, 2010
• Warikoo, Niraj (May 15, 2010), "Miss Michigan shows Arabs' diversity", Detroit Free Press, retrieved May 16, 2010

Fat&Happy (talk) 04:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, George added, "Born in Srifa, Lebanon, Fakih immigrated with her family to New York in 1993. Ten years later, they moved to Michigan, where Fakih currently resides. " but then reverted saying he didn't like it! I was hoping to find the article I was thinking of because I though it would help with the sentence. And I obviously remembered the context wrong, because (and a BIG thank you because it was driving me nuts) it was this article I was thinking of. Anyway I'll try to work on that sentence and reorder the article. Cheers PageantUpdater talk • contribs 04:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

New photograph request

Hello, could someone please acquire a new photograph of Fakih? The current photograph presented is of terribly low quality and seems to have been cropped out of a television interview if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks,

Yannis A 10:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnanth (talk • contribs)

Good idea. Why don't you go ahead and do that? Fat&Happy (talk) 15:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've been looking but there isn't anything available on Flickr yet... (well, I last checked a couple of days ago) PageantUpdater talk • contribs 00:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Birthdate

I was reading Rima's tweets and I found this - "@shannabukhari I was really born September 21, 1985 at 11:45pm but the hospital decided to round up so my ID says September 22 lol #Ghetto". I don't know how to link a specific tweet so I just quoted it to prove it is real you can scroll down to the date July 29th when it was posted. So should the date be changed on here or should it stay on the 22nd because it is "legally" that. Also would this mean that her age could be changed fifteen minutes before on the page? Ev3rything I Am (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Marriage and conversion.

The source says "While most are convinced that she's only converted because of "matters of the heart," - in other words, to be able to marry Salibi - others defended her decision by pointing out that a civil ceremony would have been sufficient their case, without the need to convert." I don't think this justifies the blunt statement in our article "In April 2016 Fakih converted to Eastern Rite Catholic Maronite Christianity to marry her husband." This implies motive, which is not supported. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 17:42, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

And what an awkward syntax - "Eastern Rite Catholic Maronite Christianity" - if one converts to be a Maronite, in virtue of their conversion they're an Eastern Catholic Christian. It's analogous to calling someone a Northeastern New Jerseyan American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.7.187 (talk) 21:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)